wdbikemad

Very nice condition 1952 Pattern trousers Sateen. I believe there were three different issues of this type of trousers. I think this is the second issue with the button over flap on the fly?

 

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Very nice Jason !

Three types of trousers as mentioned:-

1. "Trousers, Combat" - the original issue made from 1951-52 - cotton-gabardine construction and lined with similar.

2. "Trousers, Combat, Sateen, 1952 pattern" - second pattern made from 1952-53. Identical to (1) above in detail but made from cotton-sateen and no lining.

3. "Trousers, Combat, Sateen, 1953 Pattern" - third pattern made from 1953 to 1960. Identical to (2) but button-over-fly deleted and zipper repositioned to sit vertically.

I have examples of (2) and (3) but not (1) - the latter would seem very hard to find, as are matching smocks in Gabardine only made for about a year......I have a gabardine hood though, in NOS condition dated 1952....:-D

Speedo is mounted on two individual brackets that come off the right side of the forks.......(very early WD versions have the speedo mounted on a single bracket on top of the forks)......

Horn is mounted on a special bracket fitting onto the front engine frame attachment....horn then faces forwards...

Both sets of brackets are available as repros, probably from Draganfly....

A parts list is useful for the W/NG as it shows these brackets......and there are a fair few on the W/NG to mount the toolboxes, panniers, etc......

"CWS" is either "Co-Operative Wholesale Society" or "Compton Webb & Sons"......

I am guessing a size 8 would be the largest, matching many other size ranges in the army at the time.......grouped in 2's of different widths, and each group varying in height/length.......

The 1968 pattern woollen combat shirt, first in khaki and then green from 1972 onwards, was only made in 4 sizes from 0 to 3.......

I have a fair few 50s and 60s era combat shirts in various patterns and sizes....an interesting subject in its own right...

Thanks Dave - very helpful.

 

WWII gear is not really my thing so I will probably list on Ebay or similar once folks have recovered from the Christmas overspend!

As Dave says, WW2 RN issue for arctic climates, styled on the very old pattern of windproofs worn by people like Scott and Shackleton ! The suit is very voluminous, and the smock lacking pockets and all-in-all quite useless for most applications......known officially as a "Labrador Suit"....

Sabre Sales had loads of trousers NOS about 15 years ago now but the smocks are far rarer......I wouldn't personally put any great value on these......

I think I am correct in saying that James Smith never made hoods for the 68 pattern. I have seen many of these hoods over the years but never JS as a manufacturer whereas they are, by far, the most common manufacturer of smocks/trousers from the era.

Hmmm...I will look through all my DPM hoods and see if I can find a James Smith made version......

From memory, DPM hoods were primarily made by Remploy, Eltite, H E Textiles, F Fryer, Cookson & Clegg, H Lotery, XPN, XWS, etc, so I would be surprised if Smith's didn't have contracts for some, particularly being such a major supplier of DPM garments.....

As Jason mentions, definately a green windproof 63 pattern windproof, and the largest size made......not all green examples carry the "63 pattern" designation on the label.....

Interestingly, this one is dated (I think) 1969, which would tie-in with the changeover to DPM heavyweight cotton-sateen around 1970......and unusually for British clothing, retaining the same NSNs for DPM as the previous green model......yet the DPM version of the 60 pattern combat smock and trousers used new NSNs, not the same ones as the olive drab suit....?!!

Nice rare item !!!

I think "57" is the size......and this item probably not US but European in origin. America used "British" numbered headdress sizes......

The US-style tankers helmet was copied by a number of nations post-WW2, including Germany......

It may be a case of Ebay or asking SOF if they can source some.....the larger crown RAF beret would probably not be as sought after as similar army-issue patterns.......Sabre Sales in Southsea may be able to assist with both beret and cap...? (they had loads of the latter new in boxes about 15 years ago now).....

Long-established Air Cadet units may also be worth approaching.....some still retain long-obsolete items in deep-storage......

Much wartime RAF kit soldiered on in use throughout the 1950s and early 60s........some army pattern stuff was used although the RAF had their own KD bush jacket with belt and distinctive upper 3-pointed pocket flaps.....

It was a lucky find indeed...the only item of cammo in a field too.....thinking about it, I should have haggled....

Although uncommon to find nowadays, and largely unknown amongst many collectors, there is some suggestion that limited numbers of these smocks found their way into Army Cadet usage during the 1980s.......around the late-1970s the MoD introduced a simplified DPM smock for ACF/CCF issue, replacing the earlier green hooded cadet smock. Some of the 63 pattern DPM windproof smocks, obsolete since 1975-76 following introduction of the "SAS" gaberdine windproof, allegedly found their way into ACF stocks, supplementing issues of the cadet DPM item.......how true this is I'm not certain although the possibility remains....

I've recently managed to acquire a 63 pattern DPM windproof smock.....:-D

Really nice condition with little wear..........photos will be posted as soon as I can......

The garment is in the usual heavy cotton-sateen DPM fabric but a variant pattern lacking the "dots" in the print......and the colour, particularly the sand-shade in the print, is noticeably "yellow" in appearance.......

The smock has a "AZF" blackened brass zipper fitted on a bottle-green cotton base, and hood and lower drawcords in khaki tape very similar to the tie-tapes fitted to British Army puttees........

Buttons are 4-hole khaki-brown fibre as found on 60 and 68 pattern trousers for brace-attachment........

Label is still present but not too clear......but I can see that it is a common James Smith made product.......

Size is rather large......I am 6'3" and the sleeves are almost too long !!!! The body is also very generous and quite long, fitting me similar to a size 7 para smock........so I'm guessing a size 5 to 8...?

Although the label is none-too-clear the smock itself appears little-used and looks to have been washed maybe only once......colours are still strong.......I am estimating late-production, circa 1973-75.....?

Where did I find it...? Car boot.......£10.......:cool2:

Thanks chaps ! I've spent several days over Xmas simply reviewing what I've put together already....and for the umpteenth time at that !! As new information comes along, as it always does in a subject as complex as this, it has to be written into the text and then everything else then adjusted to match.......it IS a pleasure, but time consuming to ensure accuracy and readability......

One of the hardest things for me is actually finding the time and inclination to write, and not necessarily in that order either.......spending the majority of my working week on a keyboard in front of a screen often means that spare time doing similar is not always attractive........and 'er-indoors plus kids generally always have to take precedence over other mundane tasks such as militaria, motorbikes, mates, etc......

I will get there though.....this has been a project in my mind for over 25 years.....and 20,000 words so far is no slight undertaking, so it will get completed........and it would be completely dishonest of me to say that I could finish the tome without the valuable input of my friends on this Forum.....so thank you !! In due course I will be posting for input, particularly photos of items needed to ensure accuracy of the contents....and, as mentioned, all contributors will be duly credited........

Once again, sincere thanks for all ongoing support and encouragement.....it is really appreciated....:red:

:-)....Well, the book I'm compiling about British combat clothing is going well, but the pace is slow ! I know, and appreciate, the interest that is out there so I thought it polite to keep my enthusiastic friends updated....

I'm currently at 20,000 words of text and have only covered and completed the olive drab, DPM 60 pattern and 68 patterns of combat dress..........and there's no waffle or repetition in there either...!!! I've basically set out to provide a detailed overview of each pattern, followed by a detailed description of each individual item, quoting official sources and modifications incorporated where applicable....I've attempted to miss nothing out, using the sort of questions I would ask as a basis for my ramblings......The masterplan is to continue with the remaining garments up to (and including) CS 95 dress but I do not intend to go on into the new MTP stuff....that is for a future project and there has to be a cut-off point somewhere.......

I plan to cover all temperate combat dress, cold-weather stuff, experimental and prototype gear, relevant ancillary items plus special purpose garments, including windproofs, parkas, para and sniper smocks, etc.........but not (yet at least) tropical clothing, pullys, shirts, etc........

Plan is to get most of the text completed and to back this up with loads of photos of actual garments with detail, plus a selection of period shots showing the clothing in service......

Please bear with me....it has suddenly dawned on me what a massive undertaking this is, and I suspect that the final publication will be a good effort although still with room for improvement.......I am looking at around 100,000 words at completion and then comes photo time and finding a decent publisher !! (I've been through the trauma of the latter before).........if all goes well....maybe 2013...??? We'll see how life pans out meantime....:-D

There have been many really good photos of items posted on this Forum, and there may come a point where I may seek permission from members to use some of these in the book, with due credit of course.......

Thanks to all for your continued patience and encouragement.......Steve

These loops in the pouch lid were part of the original design specification for the 37 pattern universal pouches, and factory fitted to the British-made MK1's between 1937 and 1940 (at the latest)......they also featured on the similar, larger "utility" pouches for the same period........they were (apparently) intended for "ballistite" rounds for rifle grenades.......

Although disappearing from British production, they do seem to have continued to be fitted to some Canadian, Indian, New Zealand, South African and Australian-manufactured pouches, right up to 1945 in some cases despite the use for the loops having largely disappeared well prior to then......

These items were first introduced for issue to WRAC's serving in Northern Ireland who were required to undertake outdoor searches of females, etc........to provide an element of cold and wet-weather protection as an alternative to the issue long raincoat........this was in the days when WRAC's were very much in a non-combat role and prior to DPM clothing being issued to females.........

I remember seeing several NOS examples of this jacket in a surplus store in Oxford during the 1980s........

Of rather more interest is the "D Parker" manufacturers name on the label, indicating the name of the manufacturer located at "Clayton St.Mill", the latter name alone appearing on a number of early 68 pattern DPM smocks and trousers.........another one to add to the list !!

Let's be honest though: the cut and fit on those jackets pre rounded elbow reinforcements was utter crap !! Theydid not allow for a full range of arm movement and your underarms lose circulation with your hands down by your sides. WhT manner of creature were they thinking it would fit ??

Merry Christmas BTW !

A serious design flaw indeed.......not corrected until 1964, almost 4 years into 1960 pattern smock production.......

I might be completely wrong, but it doesn't look British to me....?

Possibly US WW1 or Belgian, Dutch....? Maybe a driver/air-mech....??

Don't forget the aircrew pullovers : soft wool, turned back and stitched (double) cuffs and no patches whatsoever ......

I remember those ! A couple of guys in my unit were issued these from stores as they'd run out of the standard pattern in certain sizes..........the WO wasn't at all happy, as nowhere to attach the shoulder rank & "mars bars"..........:-D

Clive, fully understood and much appreciated ! I am in the fortunate position of having a copier at my disposal.......

I will endeavour to run off a few copies for interested parties prior to xmas, and take things from there !

The woolly pully as we know it today first appeared in recognisable form around 1970......(the so-called 68 pattern)....olive drab, loose, soft-weave wool with denim/drill patches, double-thickness cuffs that did not require turning back, and numbered sizes.......

Next issue was similar but patches were a mixture of drill/denim or poly-cotton.........

By the mid-70s, the weave had been improved to give a tighter, more robust finish but with less softness....cuffs were now unfinished for turning back, patches now poly-cotton and velcro-fastened epaulettes fitted as standard....

By the early/mid 80s, sizes went to metric.......

Early pullys have the care label fitted at the neck, and (mostly) the NSN/size label fitted inside at one of the side seams.........later issues have the single label at the neck.......

Be wary of civvy copies, made from the 70s to the 80s......often lacking epaulettes and in an acrylic mix rather than wool.......:-D

I afraid I don't have a VAOS CM as such, what I have quoted comes from Clothing Regs 1955 which is more concerned with scales of issue than being a Vocabulary as such.

 

However I do have COSA CM 1986 & 1992, as it happens I don't have any CG. So perhaps we could do something then.

 

I am after Clothing Regulations 1953 Pamphlet No.5 covering women's clothing then I would have the complete set 1-9. Although I recently got COSA CK Service Uniforms, Handware, Headwear, Hosiery (Women) 1972 & 1987.

 

I notice that in 1972 Stockings, womans was available in brown 20 denier, eventide 20 denier & fawn 60 denier (fully fashioned) but by 1987 eventide had become obsolete so CK/8445-99-975-9442 would be quite a collectors item.

 

Curiously eventide was only available in size 8 1/2 leg 30 in

Clive, that would be good...86 and 92 copies good for me....

I do have a 43 (?) dated ATS scale of issue for ALL theatres and trades, including tropical, desert, nursing, drivers, etc, so again, a copy is available....

I am not a hoarder of info at all, and will always share what I have ! Mutual info exchange can only serve the greater good....

Oh dear so on that basis perhaps I am already in the after life:shake:

 

I hope I wasn't the QM in the Zulu film I saw this afternoon when our chaps were getting thrashed & running out of ammo who had to queue up in an orderly fashion to be issued with ammo only to those whom the QM felt had an entitlement. I mean the Regulations is the Regulations, it all has to be accounted for, oh dear I think I'm giving myself away

Clive, I would be happy to do you a copy of my Aug 86 CG list for a copy of your CM.....

During WW2, the first examples of what was to evolve into the classic "NATO" woolly pully appeared.......heavy ribbed knit in a distinct brown colour with a drawcord neck but no shoulder or elbow patches. These were intended as part of the "mountain troops" cold weather clothing but were often adopted by commandos, SAS, etc. The garment went on to be issued in Korea and odd examples were still on issue during the 1960s......a blue-grey type also existed for issue to aircrew....

Later issues added khaki-drill patches to the elbows plus similar edging to the cuffs, and even later examples (1960s made) added to shoulder patches, cut around the neck at angles similar to the yoke found on windproof smocks........

These garments were well-favoured by SAS during the 1960s and early 70s and can be seen in many period photos......the garment wasn't officially replaced until around 1969-70 when the first of the modern green woollen pullys commenced issue (again, several patterns evolving up to the 1980s)....

Seems that SOF military and WPG in the USA offer good copies of these rare pullovers......I've only ever seen a few original examples and that was during the 1980s amongst a quantity of assorted surplus.......all were well worn and full of holes !!

Anyone got any examples of these...?

Sadly, no pattern reference...just "smock, combat" :embarrassed:

It is estimated that the so-called "84" or "85" pattern first appeared around this period......

From personal experience, I first saw this pattern on issue in 1984......but no sign of it in 83.....so I personally refer to it as "84" !!!

I had one of these covers years ago now in plain olive drab......never seen another since........

Jason, you are correct.......NSN 8415 99 137 5028 (the old size 1) for height 150-170, chest 90-100, to 8415 99 137 5032 (the old size 5) for height 170-190, chest 114-124.............there is also a size "special" 8415 99 137 5033........

The liner was introduced circa 1975-76 for the arctic windproof DPM smock, thus was originally made in the old numbered size range, although later production (as with the smock) went "metric" around 1982-83..........

Interestingly, listed as for use with the arctic windproof smock and the '84 pattern combat smock according to the August 86 QM CG lists......:-D