wdbikemad

Interesting question, Harry......firstly, not my true area of knowledge....so best have a look at Simon Howlett's excellent illustrated books "Post War British Jungle Web Equipment" and "Modern British Web Equipment".....they have some great shots and descriptions of these items........

I think these items started off as modifications of issue 44 and 58 kit, but eventually became standardised and officially manufactured......for example, some "SAS" altimeter pouches carry issue stamps and dates amongst other things.....

I didn't know that about the standard 7/8" bars Steve? Mine has the clamp on type (not the troublesome rubber mounted type) But has the strange 1" in the middle tapering to 7/8" for the levers. Then there is that hard to find double mag/valve lift lever!!!

 

Gareth, I might be able to sell you a pair of original pannier frames. PM me.

 

Ron

Last one (or two) late '44 onwards W/NG contracts had the universal 7/8ths 'bars fitted, along with universal controls (Amal pattern, no double lever and a decent trigger-type valve lifter !!), saddles and Vokes air cleaners.......according to the illustrated parts lists.....:-D Pressed steel primary cases and timing cover too......

Try Terry Roberts at "Metal Magic" (metaltel@yahoo.co.uk) as he does a number of good repro parts for the W/NG, including mudguards, stays, toolboxes, pannier brackets, etc....

Careful with W/NG handlebars......early Ariel 'bars were peculiar to Ariel, and feature a 1" centre tapering to 7/8ths at the ends.......the larger centre section was to fit inside the early rubber-mounted handlebar lug. My own W/NG still has this fitted, and it was discontinued around 1942-43 due to instances of the 'bars rotating over particularly rough ground ! many earlier models had the later rigid handlebar clamp retro-fitted..........I had the original 'bars too, but they were becoming a tad thin, so I got a pair of standard 7/8ths 'bars, then had them bent to shape and a thin section of steel wrapped around the middle and welded and ground to shape making it up to 1" thickness......

Later W/NG's adopted the "universal" pattern WD 7/8ths 'bars.........

John Budgen is a good source as mentioned, and he frequently has some good 2nd-hand stuff in........Russell Motors in London also have a fair few original W/NG parts, mainly small stuff though......

This garment was discussed on the Forum a while ago now........labelled as "Smocks, Showerproof", made by BMC and dated late 1960s........BMC made Denisons, 63 pattern windproofs, etc, so I don't doubt this items authenticity.........also appears to have a Navy vocabulary (stores) number below the designation............plus the neck and collar fastening is very "naval" as found on other weather protective RN clothing.......

Rare indeed, but £5 - 800...? Mind you, people are paying £134 for a decent early DPM para smock and similar for green 60 pattern stuff, so perhaps not too excessive...out of my league though, with a wedding and family taking up most of my collecting budget nowadays....:embarrassed:

I wonder if these garments survived long enough (1970) to see a version made in DPM....? Does anyone have any Royal Navy stores lists from around this period to look through......??? Might provide further clues regarding this garment, such as date of introduction, etc.....:-D

Any chance please of the item number to have a look?

Gone from my Ebay watching Harry - sorry

A rather nice 1st issue DPM para smock made by H E Textiles Ltd and in an early, and very hard to find Size 5, finished on Fleabay yesterday at £134.......it really did look a good one with little if any wear according to the images and reminded me of the one I had in the early 80s, being the same size, colouring and manufacturer.......

Price apart, the larger old-style sizes (4 to 9) for para smocks, only in use for a few years between roughly 1977 and 1980-ish, were never exactly common from memory.......same with the 59 and later patterns of Denison. I think the answer may be simple "fashion" trends of the time.....

During the 60s and through to the early 80s, the trend appears to have been to wear the para smocks short in the body, the Denison itself often subject to the tailoring of the body to produce a snug fit, completely different to the original design intention and to how smocks were worn and issued from WW2 through the 50s. It seems that even if you were over 6' tall, with your correct size being a 7 - 9 depending on how slim you were, everyone invariably requested issue of sizes 1 to 3, and lesser so sizes 4 to 6 to provide the "short" look.......once the DPM para smock appeared from 77 onwards, there was a tendency to wear the garment with the lower drawcord tightened up to produce a "bloused" effect, common also with 68 pattern DPM smocks of the era......

The downside with this was if you were tall, but wearing a short smock, the web belt or equipment generally sat across the lower pockets, rendering them redundant.......

Yet by the 90s, it would seem that the "blousing" of smocks ceased, and garments began to be issued and worn longer and loose.......I should imagine that many earlier stocks of the original production DPM para smocks in larger sizes were used up around this time although they are still far less common to find today, which is unusual in comparison to other garments........

Thanks for the further info Paul. Have you ever come across some of the Indian-manufactured grey and khaki flannel shirts ? Seems the grey type in various styles continued amongst the Indian Army and possibly some other Commonwealth troops well into WW2......

Incidentally, both my greyback shirts were found quite by accident.......one from an old theatrical costumers (though it is a genuine WD-marked item) and the other found within a large pile of old surplus clothing (mostly underwear, long johns, etc) being sold off from a long established surplus store during the early 1980s......I don't think I spent more than a fiver for both....:-D

Paul, thank you for the very informative replies....you learn something on this Forum every day !

I'd agree with you that the bib-front may have been discontinued on some versions as an economy measure to save material....after all, its function was probably either to help shape/stiffen the front or to provide additional warmth across the chest.......this would follow other economy items of uniform around the time, such as the khaki serge utility jacket/tunic....

The 14-pattern example I have with the ticking collar appears fully standard apart from the small bone or horn buttons (a sort of yellow colour, no doubt deteriorated through age)......but appear totally original to the shirt (that is also WD-marked), so I am assuming that these are just another wartime economy or manufacturers variation...?

Were these shirts made by numerous clothing contractors during WW1 ? I assume that prior to this, say up to 1914, they were made in the Royal Army Clothing Factory(s)...?

Hi Ron, well at least you now have a colour match !! Looks khaki-green No.3 gas-proof to me.......

I would assume that the saddle is Terry or Lycette manufacture, probably the former (due to the mattress springs, Lycette favouring elastics) but a variation model..........it's the same with many other models around the period 1939 - 42 (eg - the 16H saddles with the notched cutaway on the rear corner to clear the oil tank filler cap)........

This large number of variants was not particularly helpful during wartime production and supply, hence attempts at standardisation that resulted in the "universal" pattern saddle (along with controls, handlebars, etc) by late-44........

I have a couple of the old WW1-type grey-back shirts......this item survived from around the 1870s right through to the early 1930s......you can even see them being worn in the film "Zulu" !!

One example I have has the pointed cuffs (on the upper edge) and a neckband in white with a blue stripe running around and buttons that appear made from horn or bone.......

The other has a plain white neckband and plain cuffs but small "gunmetal" finish buttons........

Both have the bib-front and a small section of white tape reinforcement at the bottom......

Both are original.......so how many variants of this are there ? Both are woolen-flannel, one in a distinct blue-grey colour, the other far more grey............

Ron, good luck with the speedo....it might just be worth a phone call or email to Ashley Pople of "Speedo Repairs" in Frimley, Surrey (if he's still going).....he has a speedo workshop full of old chrono stuff so he might just be able to assist with the peculiar parts....I remember he sorted similar out for me on an old Enfield back in the early 90s.....:-D

And for the fork parts, whilst Hitchcock's are good, autojumbles are by far a better source for price in my experience......before they closed, Blay's of Twickenham had a fair few Enfield WD fork parts knocking around, including damper parts, plates, links, etc.......Bob Blay is still around on the odd autojumble, and I know he does Popham jumbles although I don't know how to contact him......perhaps try Eric Patterson or Paul....??? Also, Yeomans sometimes have obscure bits knocking around, as do Vale-Onslow.....I got a set of Miller Flea points from the latter !!!

The old webbing anklets in use with some troops into the 70s were usually boot-polished black and worn on all occasions when puttees would otherwise be worn, including combat and working dress.......

The damper knobs and star washers are fairly easy to source Ron....you see 'em at most good autojumbles....although finding a left-hand threaded one in 1/2" size may be more pot-luck than anything ! As you mention though, a standard one can be modified and a 1/2" left-hand cycle thread tap not impossible to source....maybe Tracy Tools..??

Apart from the primary inner, have you found anymore khaki paint on the bike yet ?

The khaki wool flannel collarless pullover-style British Army shirt first appeared during the early 1930s, replacing the grey-colour shirt of WW1 vintage, and lasted until 1944 when replaced by an almost identical version with an attached collar.......

Pre and early wartime versions feature grey "gunmetal" buttons, later issues plastic/fibre.............

Does anyone know what sizes these were made up to ? I have a 2, 4 and 6, but am convinced they go even larger...? The size number is usually found ink-stamped on the inner neckband.........:-)

I think so......but there are other boots designed to accomodate skis.....? What does SV stand for...???:undecided:

On the subject of boots,i also have somewhere a pair of unissued DMS and a 60s dated pair. When were the DMS introduced into service?

Hmmm...I have this somewhere...but at a guess, early to mid 60s........? Prior to this the only rubber soled boots were the CWW (cold-wet-weather) type with the screw-on commando soles........

Oddly, Marines continued with this sole, even after the introduction of the MK1 BCH............

Probably tropical aircrew kit........the army version is a different shape, and normally has a cloth sewn band around the crown to attach cammo foliage...plus ventilation eyelets........and, I seem to recall, a different shape....?

When assembling a NOS set of issue green PLCE (which is getting more and more difficult ! - it wasn't a couple of years ago....) I bought a NOS set of side pouches for the rucksack only to find they didn't fit......so it was an accidental find really......there is no mention of this in Simon Bradley's excellent book "Modern British Web Equipment" so perhaps few know about this...? I note the hip-pad on your rucksack is attached by press studs Harry...a feature common with the 85 pattern trial kit........

 

Have a look at Simon's book - it has great shots of the trial PLCE........:-D

 

I need a yoke and utility pouch to complete my trial PLCE kit........I have one or two spare belts to swap..?!!

Dohh ! I should have quoted correctly......Simon Howlett's excellent book........(been dealing with a Bradley all day....hence my muddled mind....)....apologies Simon.....

I remember trialling this stuff for about a year trying all different configurations and beasting it to destruction, there were 2 sizes of bergan 120l and 85l if I remember right, and at the end of the trial we recommeded it not to be issued as it was c*@p with too many plastic non soldierproof buckles and fiddly straps (that needed black nasty tape to secure them) etc.

 

Did they take any notice?? Eh No, and we ended up with it anyway, quickly followed by the DPM version we now have. Most Squaddies ended up buying their own stuff or adapting it with miltra or other items to make it more comfortable.

 

Just my tuppence worth

 

gary

There were indeed several problems with the trial PLCE kit, that included insufficiently-robust plastic buckles and fittings and press-stud fasteners that either broke or came away when you pulled open a pouch.........some of the trial kit I have encountered shows evidence of such damage........

I have a used pair somewhere that i used to wear regularly in the winter,will have to dig those out and compare.

 

I always thought that the MK1 BCH had the DMS type heel and the type like mine were the MK2-never BCH came with speed lacing,thought that was an Assault boot thing?

That is largely correct Harry, although issues of the MK2 BCH certainly came with upper speed lacing (as well as eyelets) by 95.....it was all part of the kit improvement surrounding CS 95 gear......

I think the pair shown, as mentioned, are a late MK1 with MK2 improvements, or, an early MK2 lacking the upper speed lacing loops........

The MK2 BCH was basically a much-revised MK1, and was often termed an "assault boot".....it was lighter than the MK1, easier to break-in, and had improved lining, padding, etc........

Over at the farm, I still have one pair each of NOS DMS boots, MK1 BCH and MK2 boots in a size 10L.......(my size )

Trousers NEVER tucked into puttees !!! Always bloused over the top......

The technique was to use rubber bands or, commonly, "Twists" that were basically a commercially-sought length of green-colour elasticated cord that was twisted and with hooks on the ends.....available in the NAAFI and from most surplus outlets at the time.....the technique is still used today with modern boots....

You simply put these on your lower legs, above the puttees, and then rolled the lower edge of your trousers into them from underneath.....the trousers should then blouse down over the puttees........

The other possibility may be Draganfly in Suffolk.....they do BSA and Ariel parts and I'm pretty sure that late W/NGs used the same or a similar toolbox knob...? Even if the thread is different, you will at least have a starting point.....

This one-armed item was designed to prevent opening due to vibration......

I think I can see a "93" date on the markings ? It is just possible that the original BCH were modified in respect of the heel reinforcement area because this had been a major area of concern for comfort, durability, etc.......

The boots shown look almost the same as the MK2 BCH introduced around this time, but retain the full rows of eyelets all the way to the top.....on the MK2 the upper rows were changed to speed-lacing loops...........possibly an intermediate version.....???

When assembling a NOS set of issue green PLCE (which is getting more and more difficult ! - it wasn't a couple of years ago....) I bought a NOS set of side pouches for the rucksack only to find they didn't fit......so it was an accidental find really......there is no mention of this in Simon Bradley's excellent book "Modern British Web Equipment" so perhaps few know about this...? I note the hip-pad on your rucksack is attached by press studs Harry...a feature common with the 85 pattern trial kit........

Have a look at Simon's book - it has great shots of the trial PLCE........:-D

I need a yoke and utility pouch to complete my trial PLCE kit........I have one or two spare belts to swap..?!!

If 85 dated, it will be part of the pre-PLCE trial kit.......earliest (green) standard PLCE tends to be dated 88-onwards....

An interesting point, but the pre-PLCE side pouches, whilst almost identical to the later issue ones, will not actually fit onto the later-issue pack.......this is because the zip-attachment is reversed, thus your pouches WILL fit on, but, they will be upside down (lids at the bottom !).......possibly useful for the Australian forces.....? :-D