wdbikemad

I am guessing early 1960s with "Air Force Department" (along with War Department and Admiralty....).......in (1964 I think ?) all three departments were brought under the umbrella of the MoD.....

I'd say the colours are about right for WW2 and the 50s, tending towards a lighter brown whereas later versions tended to feature a rather dark brown colour......

As with many things though, colours do vary amongst different manufacturers......

I'd like to add one of these to my PLCE collection, but other than the one in the 'Modern British Webbing Equipment' book and one picture I've found on the web they seem to be non-existent. Were they a trials item or something?:confused:

I've got a few of these, in used condition......they were intended to be strapped to the side of the rucksack......

DPM version was of skeleton construction........not sure how much these were used in reality, but they were indeed issued.....

There's no fraying or damage on the larger smock, Dave.....and it still has much of the black finish on the "AZF" zip......buttons are 4-hole pattern in khaki (same as on 68 pattern trousers for brace-buttons)......cammo colour is a rather "yellow" shade of DPM (without the "dotted" pattern), heavy cotton-gabardine fabric (white-backing) and label is cloth with just about the contract number and "James Smith" details visible......looks to have seen little wear although has been washed at least once.......I am 6'3" and broad-shouldered and this thing almost dwarfs me....it is big in the body, and long in the sleeves and length........I will get some photos together...!!

No rush......

Steve - I have been 'purging' my collection for some time now. Really no point in multiple items unless there is a good reason...

 

Drop me a note once you have catalogued and we can see if there is a swap in the offing!

Wildo Jason.....I am far more inclined to swap with my friends rather than involve money.....that way, we all benefit...:-)

By the way, not forgotten about zips and cords.......just need a day over at the farm.....!

Well Steve, if you want an olive green '63 pattern smock in trade for your bigger '63 DPM pattern, you know where to come !

(Sorry Jason ! )

Thanks Dave....I will give it some serious thought ! What was the exact size you needed...?

This is my one, in a lot worse condition, needs several repairs. Quite a large size, far too big for me.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55528[/ATTACH]

Another nice smock.....I'm guessing late-1980s/early 90s...? (colour and post-82 FFD pocket)......

I just have a soft-spot for para smocks...:red: (and a lot of other things, come to think about it.... !!)

I agree Steve: it's nice to see one that has been used. I'm hoping my buddy will give me some more info on it and the original owner.

 

I remember when heading off to Polytechnic for the first time in Late Sept 1982 that I went to a surplus shop in the basement of the indoor market in Kensington High St that was floor to ceiling with kit recently released / flogged off by lads returning from the Falklands. Smocks like this one - unwashed ! - £17 a pop. I bought an olive green '63 patt SAS smock there for £20 which I used on the hills and later at work 'til it fell apart. Oh for a time machine !

I WELL remember that shop in Kensington market (in the basement !!!)...........it was called "Flak", and the shop was rumoured, by late-83/early 84, to be attracting Plod attention due to receiving kit from "unofficial" sources..........not sure about the outcome, but I doubt if it's still there now.....

I recall going in there several times during that period, and they had rails full of Denisons, DPM 60 & 68 stuff, green 60 pattern, windproofs, aircrew jackets, etc..........surprising really as it was such a small shop.....

I must take a revisit one day....it would be rude not to, particularly as I pass Kensington High Street tube on the way to and from work every day.......

I am planning to spend a few hours over the next few weekends uploading some piccies (at last)....Dave makes me feel so guilty..:cry:.!!

I will probably part with one of the two DPM 63 pattern windproofs that I have.......it's a case really of which one...? The first one obtained is in really nice condition but the label is difficult to read.....BUT, it is a really big size....I am guessing a 6 or 8......this one is in the "yellow", "non-dotted" cammo.........the one today is a more conventional issue, similar to yours Jason, but a later contract.....

I wish to do similar with my rather large collection of 68 pattern smocks and trousers.....I have virtually all the standard sizes and all NOS, and to be honest I don't need them all for the book...! Other stuff in quantity includes DPM tropical kit, SAS DPM windproofs, aircrew, some green 60 pattern, green PLCE, 44, etc.......

I'm far more interested in swaps though.......but before anything, I really need a day at the farm to simply pull everything out and to see exactly what I have tucked away......I simply can't remember !!!:undecided:

Unbelievably, I have today found another 1963 Pattern DPM Windproof Smock, less than 5 miles from where I recently found my other.....

This one is in fine condition, Size 3, usual "early" "dotted" DPM cloth, NZ zipper and made by James Smith & Co (Derby) Ltd Staveley......seems a later production version though, probably 73-75 as a high contract number "A/78/CLO/45819/CB(CT)4B" and the label is in a nylon-type material rather than cotton.....cost a tad more than my last one at £10 :cool2: but well worth it and less than £60.....

Also managed to find a pair of Size 8 1952 pattern OD Sateen Combat Trousers dated 1953 in used but good condition for a tenner...they are made by "Silberston Ltd" and only have "Trousers Combat" on the label, no year-pattern designation or the word "Sateen"......unusually, they appear to carry a hand-applied brown-dyed cammo pattern to them but this is very hard to see unless in the right light.....

My other find of the day was a brand-new genuine modern USAF CWU36P nomex flying jacket in a size XL for......a tenner !!! A saving of well over a ton for one of these......

Good job I got my arse out of bed today and went to the "Dallas Dig-out" a mile away from home....:-D

That's the beastie....! :-D

Thought I had seen some pictures somewhere!!

 

http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t4733-parkamanscold-weather-aka-falklands-parka?highlight=British+cold+weather+parka

Blimey Jason !! That is indeed an early-issue DPM parka......BUT, did you notice that it's a fair bit different to the later production garments...???

Note the PAIR of "Fixlock" fasteners either side of the hood.....most DPM parkas only have the one, as on windproof smocks.....

Note too, the SQUARE shape pocket flaps........not the same as later issues......AND, the left-breast pocket seems to have a pen-pocket in a similar fashion to the old green parkas and 60 pattern smocks......

Note also, the shoulder and lower-rear lining appears to be in nylon......not cotton-poplin......

This seems to be an issue item too, not a trial or SCRDE-marked item.......:laugh:

That's one nice smock Dave, and certainly one of the first issued around 1977....I particularly like the large "Clix" zip as fitted to many 68 pattern smocks of the era......I also like garment showing a bit of service.....

Is this the stuff that I refer rightly or wrongly, to as the 90 pattern????

 

That there are two types, the normal temperate in the darker DPM then the weired coloured one which I have heard refered to as Tea pattern, which is a orangy in colour. It was rumoured that this colour of dpm was brought in for bosnia.

 

Jon

Jon, exactly.....the combat suit introduced during 1992 to replace the unlined suit introduced during 1984 (the type where the pockets regularly fell off !)........it was introduced partly to replace the latter suit prior to CS 95 being finalised, but also as a useful test-platform for many features of the CS 95 ensemble.....not all troops received it, as it was issued on a maintenance basis and with CS 95 coming into service during 1996-7 many went straight from the 84-issue garments to CS 95.....

It's important to note that "official" year patterns only affected the 1960 Pattern suits in green and DPM, the subsequent 68 pattern, and CS 95.......the original Korean-era combat suits did not have any year-designation, as did the 1977-78 revision of the 68 pattern (with different "8415" NSN), nor the 84 and 92-issue suits.......but for collector purposes, an informal year/pattern designation can be useful....!

The suit was indeed seen in Bosnia, and initial issues were in the very yellow-shade of DPM, later production up to 1996 reverting to a more conventional shade of cammo....

You can always identify this suit by the zip chest pockets and big sewn-on buttons.....

The DPM parka first appeared during the late-1970s.......does anyone have a very early version in the old sizing numbers (eg: size 1, 2, etc) ? I've personally never seen one marked this way, but they must have existed....?

A few years ago rummaging in an Army Surplus shop in Southampton between West Quay and (a few yards away from) the Bargate, I found some combat jackets marked 1994 pattern, seemingly essentially identical to the 84 pattern I was looking for but in ripstop. Brand new.

That's interesting.......apparently, the trial DPM CS 95 field jacket that was in-service under test between 1992 and 1994 was almost identical to the combat smock of 1991-92 but in ripstop and with a built-in hood that could be rolled up when not in use into the collar.....the subsequent CS 95 field jacket had a separate hood, plus the front-zip arrangement was altered to include a windflap, etc....

It is thought that both the trial fleece and goretex liner were the same as the subsequent production garments....but I could be wrong...?

I have a mint set of trial CS 95 lightweight shirt/jacket and trousers......both are similar to the subsequent production garments but with sewn-on buttons rather than the "slotted" type.......

I'm pretty sure these date from before the 1990's as I had one from an old surplus place called 'Talbot House Textiles' oop north somewhere back in 1978. I think they go back further than that and were only issued to a few people on the carrier. Very role specific. The nylon one was a more general deck crew issue IMMSMW.

 

There are also trousers which were fitted and worn with braces and had a drawcord waist and elastic ankles. Lined in cotton drill they had the same odd three or four piece thick reinforcements on the knee as are found at the elbows. A single pocket on the front left thigh as on WW2 windproof trousers.

You're probably correct Dave.....the ones I've seen have all been NOS and with modern metric-sized labels, although the one shown is a Size 2, suggesting early to mid-1980s when such sizes were phased out, probably as you needed a stores catalogue handy to explain the correct fitting for the numbered sizes....

During the same period, the MoD introduced a number of "Goretex" and "Ventile" garments, including civvy stuff for security, police, etc, but seem to have negated the breathability of some of these by employing non-breathable linings....:undecided:

I believe that these were made for flight-deck use on carriers and heli-decks......the various tags, etc, were meant for securing communications kit wiring from the helmet and mic to the body to prevent it getting caught when waving the arms around ! These are not that old, either, I believe dating from the 1990s going by the labels fitted that appear "modern".......

During the 1970s and 80s most Naval carrier deck crew and others wore the blue nylon MK111 waterproof jacket, an arguably good bit of kit, fitted with a hood with built-in-peak, adjusting straps & buckles, and in-built padded earcups !!! There was a rather rare green version of this garment too, favoured by Marines........early versions of both have button fronts in place of velcro on later models.....

The classic roll-neck aircrew shirt has been around since the 1960s........for years, the item was in a dark green-olive shade and always tended to come up short in the body.....but a nice warm item.....

I think modern issues have now changed in colour and material specification incorporating advances in fabric technology, but still a decent garment....

As many of us will know, the "84/85" pattern DPM combat smock and trousers were replaced during 1992 by a new pattern suit that looks similar to the subsequent CS95 ensemble.....as the latter was then under early development stage, this pre-CS95 suit can be considered as a true forerunner of the "Soldier 95" outfit.....

This particular combat smock and trousers are sometimes referred to as "93" or "94" pattern but I can remember seeing the garments on issue to recruits at ATR Winchester during 1992.......

This particular suit is the one with the BIG buttons as found on arctic clothing, plus additional zipped pockets on the chest of the smock....known as "Smock/Trousers, Temperate, DPM".......

The very first issues were in a peculiar "yellow" shade of DPM.....this was due to the MoD now requiring DPM material to be pre-dyed prior to printing......resulting in the rather unusual colour variation, subsequently rectified on later production....earlier production DPM material was natural white on the reverse, and the changeover to unlined combat smocks had revealed the reverse fabric to be a potential camouflage liability in certain field situations.......

Garments were made in heavy cotton-modal fabric.......but rumour has it that a few were made in ripstop......anyone seen any of the latter..? Not to be confused with the subsequent ripstop CS95 garments....:-\

Steve - based on your tipoff I purchased a pair a year or so ago now. The seller on Ebay has, as you say, a couple of pairs of nice size 5 examples. You do not often seem them come up. I wonder if there was a similar smock liner?

 

Strangely enough I paid a visit to Surplus and Outdoors over the weekend. Good shop but like most surplus stores these days the shop floor is full of CS95 gear and they have to rumage around in the depths of the stores to find the older gear! That is where I picked up the trousers that are the subject of this thread.

No smock liner Jason.......the first smock liner was the nylon 1968 pattern, introduced during 1972.....regulations with the older kit specified multi-layers of other garments, such as string vest, flannel shirt, sweater, heavy-duty ribbed jersey, combat smock and middle parka on top.......the trousers had only themselves worn over the liner on top of long johns...!

Post #2 on this thread Dave. I am ashamed to say that I know nothing about WWII gear so rely on wiser folks than me to advise....

Hey Jason ! None of us are true experts on anything ! (I'd be a lot richer if I was :-().......personally, I know a bit about most things military and I honestly feel that we all learn much from others on this Forum....my own knowledge has increased thanks to others.........some of my own WW2 kit-awareness came from studying the subject to see where the 1950s and later garments developed from.......all damn interesting, although my better half would probably disagree..

I would estimate survival figures worldwide of approximately between 200 - 300..........a fair few remain in places such as India and the Middle East, not all complete, restored or appreciated for what they actually are......I have a photo somewhere showing several frames and part-complete Welbikes taken in India about 12 years ago now....none were restored and they were lying amongst various other derelict relics of the British motorcycle industry......

Jason, I am pretty certain that the original production combat smocks and trousers manufactured from 1951 to mid-1952 were never too plentiful......and the bulk of production rushed over to Korea for the winter around October-November 1951....hence accounting for the scarcity today.....

A few years ago now I did see a NOS sealed pattern GDS (Garment Development Section) smock on Ebay dated June 1951 but sadly missed out on it.......

As with most things though, the odd example will survive somewhere........I have a NOS gabardine hood dated 1952 (the end of gabardine production) plus you have one of those 1st pattern middle parkas also in gabardine !!!

It's a case of keep looking......:-) !!!

It's also well worth trying to acquire a pair of the Trouser Liners made for the Korean War combat trousers.....I got a NOS pair from "Surplus and Outdoors" last year for around £10 in a Size 1 dated 1951.....and I am pretty certain that another seller currently has some size 5's available NOS with a similar date.......it's a trader with an Ebay shop so worth searching on combinations of the word "liner" and taking it from there.....these are a rare item nowadays and a key part of the early combat suit...

Thanks Steve. What is the label description for the Gaberdine smock you mention?

As far as I can ascertain, only the 1952 and 53 patterns of trouser carried the year pattern-designation on the label.....smocks and hoods carried nothing other than the addition of the word "sateen" signifying the later 1952 pattern made in this material.....

As far as I can establish, the original pattern combat smock in gabardine carried only the simple description "Smock, Combat" on the label, later versions adding the word "Sateen"......hoods appear to have followed a similar trend although some early sateen production used the earlier labeling but with "Sateen" added in the form of a purple or black-coloured ink stamp......

The original gabardine combat smock would use the same cloth as found on the first pattern middle parka, the type with the attached hood and no top pockets....it is thought that the gabardine was replaced by sateen as field experience revealed the former to be less durable.....