Pete Ashby

That's a very nice sentiment which I share. I am a Navy Veteran (FTB3/SS) and my father made the US Army a career.

 

But this is a much more mundane discussion.

 

As I mentioned earlier, buy the truck, not the story. If a collector/historian is looking for a CCKW I would say that they are going to be on the more 'fickle' end of the price scale as opposed to say someone who just wants one for farm use.

 

I could list what I consider the value of just about every part on a CCKW, and it would be a very reasoned and logical price guide. For the most part I think vendors, for individual parts, are pretty close. Individual parts are much more expensive than complete units. The analogy is that you *could* order every part to build a reproduction jeep, from bumper to bumper and it would be 2-4x the cost of buying a running jeep that has been 'restored'.

 

That said, few people have actually given a number that was very different from my price range.

 

For discussion's sake here's what I consider appropriate ranges for the types of CCKW I come across.

 

 

Parts truck, without bed - $1200-$1500

Parts truck, with bed - $1500-2000

winch adds about $500-1000 depending if the PTO/shafts/wire rope, levers etc are all there.

 

Plane jane CCKW cargo working order, garage restored, mixed parts (closed cab with wooden bed and such) $4000-$6000

Winch adds $750-1000 if its all there, in working order.

 

Professional restored, proper parts, historically accurate (proper engine, canvas etc) $6000-$10000

 

Anything over $10,000 should be either a variant like a compressor truck with tools, gas tanker, etc. These are the hardest to value as they are also the most uncommon.. and the VALUE is not the truck, but the accessories like pumps/hoses/tools.

 

I think these numbers are not unrealistic or 'low ball'.

 

So when Supply Line or ebay or Joe's used cars advertises a $12000-15000 Norwegian CCKW cargo truck, no winch, basically nothing more than repainted OD there is no sane basis for that price. That's what they might have PAID to acquire the truck, and haphazardly throw a coat of OD over the rust.... but that's not what the truck is worth.

In principal I don't disagree with anything you have said above and I understand the logic. However as several others have noted the prices in the UK and in Europe are significantly higher than in the US, I too keep an eye on prices in your country and up until the recent hike in transport costs it was attractive for European buyers even when shipping had been taken into account this was particularly true for some of the early war types of vehicles that were not shipped to Europe in any number during the conflict.

I believe the reason for the price difference is due to population density and connecting to my point in a previous post It may be that WW11 has a larger residual significance to people here in Europe. I say that not to be inflammatory or provocative but I think it just may be the case. The US went on to be involved in a number of other significant conflicts post WW11 none of which impacted on the Europeans in the same way that WW11 did, the echoes of which we still live with today in the 21 century.

Pete

If you had to put a price on your truck for sale, what would it be?

 

Put an honest value.. not an emotional 'it means to much'.

 

Then justify it.

 

I don't see much more than about $6500USD or £4100-£4500. Most of that is because it has a bed, winch, and appears to drive.

 

Your idea of price is very likely a true reflection on the real value of this vehicle, I think that its nearer to scrap value given the technology, but then I have no intention of selling her, so the question is quite academic. I suppose that if I thought about it seriously I would probably want about £6000.00....... but then she`s not or sale. I go to great lengths in my efforts to educate the young people of this country just what this vehicle represents. It represents a generation of young Americans that served in the E-T-O that the likes of will probably never be seen again. They came over here to defend democrocy, there own homeland was not under direct threat from the axis forces.......... a few learned people in the U.S. knew that that that was a distinct possibility in the not too distant future if the axis forces should prevail. However, a young American serviceman would not have been thinking along those lines, so its still a source of amazement to me that he was prepared to risk life and limb to protect what I believe to him was some little country just a few miles off mainland Europe. So you see my truck does not really represent any value, its dedicated to a lot of young men that are buried over here in Europe and never returned home to their families.......... How can you put a price on that.

You have captured my thoughts on the subject exactly Ray, be the vehicle US, British or Canadian that is why for the last 40 years I have spent tens of thousands of £'s travelled thousands of miles and invested tens of thousands of hours of my own time in restoring running and keeping these trucks. My farther gave seven years of his young life to to the cause you eloquently set out above. He was lucky apart from some minor wounds and some bad memories he came home many of his generation did not.

I am aware that this is starting to get somewhat off topic and for that I apologise however Ray has captured for me the true worth of what we do and why we do it.

To bring this discussion back a little more on topic any WW11 truck is now at least 67 years old when you look at that in terms of cold cash who in their right mind would pay any more that current scrap price for any piece of machinery that old?.

The real answer is the worth is in what the truck represents as a piece of history.

To put this in perspective deadline, I think recently an original copy of your constitution singed by Washington was sold in your country recently to a private collector for a very large number of $, how was that priced in terms of worth.

A slightly mouldy piece of parchment with a few almost inadvisable scribbles at the bottom. The answer is it had historical context and meaning that gave it value, the worth was what ever the individual felt it meant to them on the day of sale.

Interesting discussion thanks

Pete

 

Whatever you finally end up paying is the cost at that moment in time... and the majority of time its not done with analytical precision, but emotional haphazardness.

so there you go then.................. it's what ever the buyer is willing to pay at the end of day..... I'm glad we cleared that up

Pete

Guy FBAX truck, as I have found it hard to find information on them, and I only know of 7 that are all non restored and are in New Zealand.

 

David

We have gantry version here David, it's in need of a little TLC but very complete and original.

Pete

Has the truck got civilian dash instruments and an ash tray fitted ? if it really is early then it should have these as standard, what is the frame number?

If it really is early then it would not be unreasonable to expect a premium on the price but that is very dependant on condition.

Pete

It's very much a case of horses for courses, Over the years I have used chemical paint stripper with wire brushes, sand blasting, iron slag blasting, copper slag blasting, bead blasting, chemical dipping and electrolysis all have merits and draw backs.

If you have heavy corrosion then sand or slag blasting will produce good results quickly, however remember that the very action of producing that nice dull grey surface removes significant amounts of surface steel. When steel is forged or in the case of sheet rolled the action and heat of production tend to produce at the surface of the metal a grain structure that is aligned and flat at the surface (that's why stock steel sheet is smooth to the touch) when you blast clean the surface you cut through the surface grain structure and expose the under layers if the surface is not then sealed with a high build primer and a undercoat with a high varnish content (ie gloss paint) you will get after time tiny brown rings that appear in the paint surface and will look like a case of measles after several years. This is the result of water moving down the open grain boundary of the steel and causing corrosion between the grains, known as grain boundary corrosion to metallurgist.

I now tend to use chemical stripping and wire brushes on good steel with an etch primer and gloss undercoat. I keep the blasting option as a last resort for badly rusted parts.

Pete

Three, Pete? I knew about the one in the hedge, where did you get the other two?.

 

Did you get the COE cab from VPW eventually, and have you now got three Welles-Thornton rears, as if you have that will be a world population of - three, I think.

 

Any COE bits you need, as the lads on the 39-47 Dodge truck Group on Yahoo have some cabovers and may be able to help with parts? Fortunately you have the '41 COE cab, as the '40 is ultra-rare and there is precisely one of the contractor-built cabs from 1939 still in circulation.

 

Gordon

( one of four known surviving T-36 Snow Tractors )

Yep, three Gordon, the first as you may remember came from Avon, the second we tracked down in Suffolk and the third came from Norfolk all in various stages of decay.

Yes we did pick a very nice cab up from VPW they did us a pretty fair deal and Yarrp shipped it for us. At the time we picked up the first truck a bloke from the south of France got in contact with us as he had the remains of another one that had been re-engined with a Renault diesel and had been used as tar sprayer. But yes we could possibly have the world population of WK60's but you know what his game is like never say never :-)

Pete

My son's Dodge WK60 740 built we have the remains of three of them to make one, long term project.

Pete

Does anyone have strong opinions on fitting electric fuel pumps to help with vapurising problems. I have one on my vintage Dennis which certainly helps with fuel supply on a hot day,

I fitted an electric pump to my 12cab C15A in line with and pumping through the manual pump for cold priming(no lift lever on a CMP Chev) and the very occasional hot starting problem. Not very original I know, but in today's traffic it gives a little bit more security. I fitted the pump inside the frame rail and hid the switch inside the cab so the whole set up was invisible.

On a hot day after a long run you could sometimes see the petrol boiling inside the pump bowl at idle with that characteristic lumpy idle note to the engine. A flick of the switch and the problem would be solved, turn the pump off and back to normal via the manual pump worked like a charm.

Ford Canada actually produced an electric pump modification during the war for fitting to Ford CMP's this came under a series of mods classed as 'Indian army Modifications' for more information on this topic search Maple Leaf Up site where this topic has been discussed in some depth.

Pete

I have to say the WOT does run hot - hotter than the CMP does, and that's with a similar but larger engine (ford mercury V8).

Your right Lauren the WOT does run hotter than the CMP, If I remember rightly the Canadian Ford Rad has slightly larger core than the British one.

Glen, if the engine gets that hot while just manoeuvring around the yard there does seem to be a fundamental problem, you say that the rad has been re-cored? Richard makes a very sound point that some rad re-builders do not have access to the old specs and fit cores with smaller diameter cores and or less tubes. I have had a case where a CMP Chevrolet rad was supposedly re-cored but turned out to have been done to a fifties car spec and was woefully inadequate for a truck.

Before you rip the rad out and start spending a lot of money try looking for some of the more obvious problems so check your static timing, check that you don't have head gasket issues and or a cracked block, check your fan belt tensions, make sure one or both of your water pumps are not defective (I once had a case on a CMP Ford where one pump had sized and the belts were loose enough to slip round without squealing, took some time to find that one :embarrassed:), was the block flushed before the new rad was fitted? if not you may have sludge/shale in either or the block or rad causing localised over heating.

The bottom line is that the flat head V8 fuel pump is not positioned in the optimum position for catching the fan blast and it can on hot days after a long run cook itself sitting up on top of the engine and suffer vapour lock having said given the summer we are currently enduring you should not be having a problem.

Pete

Some body who cant find a basic dirty connection on a battery diagnosing vapour lock on an overheating engine whats going on here

That is not very helpful is it?

Pete

Pete

 

What do we think about this tool ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10PC-IMPERIAL-PIPE-BRAKE-DOUBLE-FLARING-TOOL-KIT-SET-/390340506406

 

Regards

 

Vulture

You will find it very hard to make good flares with this sort of tool I'm afraid. The truth is that good double flaring tools are not cheap I haven't bought one for years but would expect to pay between £50 and £100 for a reasonable tool. Sykes Pikavant or Snap on will be double that price but you don't need that standard of tooling.

Bottom line is this, brakes and brake lines are the single most important bit of kit on the whole truck so they have to be right.

Pete

Just something for information Vulture if and when you should make your own, all brake pipes should be double flared, the reason behind this is single flares can under pressure fail and pull through the union nut.

Pete

Duck oil always works well and will eventually evaporate and not leave the gunky residue that clean engine oil in petrol seems to, it's not quite so flammable either.

Pete

At this moment in time we as a club are discussing / proposing to have regular maintenance talks, particularly on our less busy meeting during the winter months. We are very fortunate that we have vehicles at varying stages of restoration where we conduct our monthly meetings, this will allow both practical and theory instruction.

In view of the discussion going on elsewhere on MoT's that sounds like a very good idea Ray .

I do wonder if there is mileage in having a separate section on the forum where mechanical issues/problems can be discussed regardless of origin or age of vehicle. The biggest thing is not being afraid to ask the question in the first place.

Pete

Best option Vulture, brakes steering and tyres are the three most important items to keep maintained. If it stops you can always get it started again, but if it wont stop or you cant steer it your b###ed :eek:

Pete

It would be worth your while looking at all your brake pipes both steel and rubber while your thinking about replacing this one.

Rust formed around the union nut so that its frozen to the pipe may be a indication that you have issues with the steel pipe underneath.

I can see from your photo that the rubber pipes have been painted by the previous owner,this is not a good practise as the thinner/paint can attack the hose over time and also it makes it difficult to detect natural deterioration of the hose with time. For the cost of a set of pipes and a days work I'd recommend it, your going to have do a full system bleed anyway when you replace the pipe that's screwed.

Pete

Thanks for all the replies, I have had a google about and found a thread on g503 showing someone's jeep where he had found some of this paint and it was a off lime yellow, would you do this to your vehicle to help it stand out or am I asking for trouble from people asking why is it like that?

 

Cheers.

 

Steve

I painted a large yellow splodge on the bonnet of my C15A 12 cab (see photo below) and was pleasantly surprised that most people new what it was for, and those that didn't asked and were always interested to hear how it worked. I would do it but make sure you get the colour and position correct is all I would suggest.

Pete

There used to be a Crossley Q emergency tender on exhibit at RAF Hendon aircraft museum, I haven't been for a good few years but remember it was very complete might be worth enquiring if its still there it would be good for detail information on frame and drive train.

Pete

Good question , don't know the definitive answer, but as troops landed on the initial landings with gas masks and anti gas impregnated uniforms I am guessing that gas patches were still applied to vehicles.

Pete

I’m very disappointed at the reaction here, the underlying message appears to be that the owners of pre 1960 vehicles under 3.5 tons are not to be trusted or judged competent to maintain their vehicles in a basic road worthy state. This is not a message that should be portrayed individually or collectively by the vintage movement as a whole.

This is not a logical argument based on any fact that I am aware of. If the argument was based on factual data then vehicles exceeding 3.5 tons (which as we know have been exempt for years) would bear witness to the fact that owners are not capable of maintaining their vehicles, a fact I do not see proven. Indeed it can be correctly argued that this class of vehicle poses a greater threat to road safety due to increased size and weight. We can all sight cases of GMC’s back in the eighties with defective flexi hoses and cracked tyres etc but I can speak from experience that those individuals were and continue to be dealt with by having a quite word with the show organiser and or the club safety officer. It’s your hobby and it’s your responsibility to police it for all of us, it’s not a case of turning a blind eye. Owning a historic vehicle comes with a certain amount of personal responsibility and professionalism. So if this system has worked fine for vehicles over 3.5 tons the same policing will work for vehicles under 3.5 tons, just because it’s smaller it does not become more dangerous.

There are elements particularly in Brussels that would be only too pleased to remove all vintage vehicles from the road by bureaucratic and punitive measures. We should not be giving them ammunition by suggesting that hoards of owners will be taking to the roads in unsafe vehicles.

There seems to be a feeling in the western world that legislation will cure all ills and abdicate the individual from any form of responsibility. If there’s a law to cover the misdemeanour there appears to be an attitude of……. ‘then I don’t need to bother or get involved….. they will sort it out’….., well ‘they’ will and do and your personal freedom is eroded year on year as a result. No amount of legislation will prevent individuals from committing unsafe acts if they are determined to do it. It is the responsibility of every one of us to ensure this tiny minority, if they exist, are internally policed and reported if necessary to the right authorities.

In conclusion the exemption of pre 1960 vehicles from MoT should be seen as a very positive move on behalf of the bureaucratic system to acknowledge the vintage movement as whole as responsible people (there’s that word responsible again).

Gentlemen we should rise to the occasion and not wish to hide behind more bureaucracy.

Pete

It would be worth checking thrust washers and bearings while the the box is out as end float either in the main shaft lay shaft or both can be a cause of gear jumping

Pete

Very nice truck Lauren, Robert's your man for WoT2 information,

Gosh, two vehicles does make me a collector now.... Do I get a badge?

No you get an overdraft, bad back and Christmas cards from your local petrol station:-D

Pete

Very nice indeed,

particularly like the shots out in the desert, looks very authentic as the gun motor carriage first saw action in North Africa I believe ?

Pete

Hoppy

as you can see, ask a question and get a multitude of answers which can seem to contradict and confuse your original question.

The fact is there are sometimes a number of ways of doing a job or several answers to a problem, some better than others, some more expensive, some more time consuming and some dependant on conditions of use. None give you a definitive answer and I'm afraid it can be an elusive beast to track down so I suggest you take on board all the comments you get from questions asked on forums such as this perhaps ask the same question of one of the many vintage forums on the web and compare the answers in other words see if there is a consensus, read the manual or advert blurb (in the case of a product) then apply some common sense.

Never be afraid to ask the question in the first place... and then have a go.....it's the only way to gain experience.

Pete