79x100

Triumphs are not really my thing but I have some information from the RAOC records relating to the contracts.

If the stampings are original then both frame and engine are from 3HW contracts

Frame TL36984 was delivered under contract S1246 (TL36418 - TL38917) - this was scheduled for delivery @ 800 per month commencing April 1943 so yours would date from around this time. These later 'census' numbers were linked to the last two digits of the frame number and I calculate that it would originally have been C5205584. Engines for this contract were in the range 3HW 46418 - 48917.

Engine number 3HW 55534 was built under the later contract S2956 - also 800 per month commencing at 51418 in December 1943 which would put this engine around April 1944 and it would probably have been installed in TL45534 with census number C5427534.

Many 3HWs seem to have been sent to the Far East and this is somewhat backed up by the reference in Orchard & Madden's "British Forces Motorcycles 1925 - 1945" * which shows deliveries under both these contracts to Liverpool which suggest that they were to be exported rather than for home or NW Europe use.

The brown saddle is not as original and often seems to appear on machines which have been 'restored' in the Indian sub-continent. If it were mine, I would certainly be carrying out a thorough safety check before riding.

*If you don't have Orchard & Madden's "bible" then it is highly recommended. The nice Mr. Madden posts on here too.

Jules, the ball can't go anywhere on a Norton and lots of Commando owners cut and shorten the push rod, putting a ball in the middle because it stops the rod bowing and pumping gearbox oil along the inside of the mainshaft.

I believe that there should be a ball on the 16H between the push rod and the clutch mushroom. Mine certainly needed one.

As Ron implies, there is room for adjustment as the system is not fussy (within reason) how far the worm is turned into the bronze nut and any misalignment of the operating arm is quickly corrected.

I believe that the only purpose of the large circlip is to prevent the clutch plate pack falling out during maintenance. It can have no effect on operation. Incidentally, if you're using modern friction materials then it is no longer critical to have the oil-excluding band around the drum.

As I understand it, you now have fibre plates but presumably corks in the basket itself. It's "not unknown" for these to come loose and end up jammed against each other between basket and backing plate and you may have to come up with a solution to this such as bonding a thin fibre plate to each side of the basket.

If you want a really abuse-proof free and light clutch then I'd suggest contacting Ken McIntosh in New Zealand. His 'modern' set-up used on racing Manxes is superb. (A nice chap to deal with as well but not always quick to answer mails during the racing season down under). Ken has a WD 16H himself. He also supplies a sytem involving matched springs and shouldered adjusters which do away with struggling to get it lifting squarely.

You're still very lucky in the UK with collector's insurance. Here in Belgium, I can't get anything beyond Third Party Only for my two Norton motorcycles (1940 WD and 1975 civilian) and they're costing me more than 300 euro per year. The lack of theft cover scares me but there is no choice.

I suspect that It'll have to get a lot worse in Blighty before an enthusiast will stop paying. If I could get comp or even TPF&T for £310, I wouldn't hesitate.

Is there a way of identifying MCR1s from the number stamped onto the cap (assuming it's original) ? They seem to be almost random to me. I can't pin down any logical sequence. Presumably the full number includes a code indicating mounting type ? There's probably no-one alive who can decipher it though.

Based on the odd 'Key Card' that I've been privy to, they don't show current unit at the time the system was incepted. Generally only the last before being struck off charge. It is not unknown to have disposals in Germany, Greece, and UK on the same page so I'd doubt a link to units. There appears to be some rough, vague correlation to the original contract numbers in that blocks are sometimes found together but even that can't really be called a system.

I'm pretty sure that 'YD' was an M20 BSA sequence. Some of them were, at least. Have a talk to Lex, as per post #6 on this thread :-

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?30011-where-did-my-BSA-WDM20-serve-in-WW2

Nortons were allocated a lot of 'YB's and 'YC's but no 'YD's as far as I can tell.

ps, don't forget to next time bring a can of white paint to paint the Mayors horse white!!!

Lex, "Whitewashing the mayor's horse" sounds like a dreadful euphemism for something that only the most depraved of minds could dream up.

They might be heavy, Ron but they can still lift- be careful !

I was down in France yesterday with Lex and Jan, looking at the area where 4 RNF were training in March 1940 when the Pathé film was made. It was an interesting day out. We sat at the long table in what remained of the chateau bombed in 1940 drinking pastis with the local mayor.

There should be some interesting 'then & nows" coming. Do you fancy a trip to France with 'Le Big' ?

I had assumed watching the film that two Big 4s collided but it was a poor bloody 16H that got caught in the sandwich. Lex wants to re-enact it. Should I trust him ?

I have heard from a number of reliable sources that the RLC museum has no information relating to the wartime generation of motorcycles (which were generally demobbed by the mid 1960s and they do say that "most" of their records relate to vehicles which entered service after this time).

Furthermore, they rather carefully say that the information they do have "can help trace the history" - what they don't say is that there records relate to the post 1948ish registration records and not to the old census numbers system with wartime history.

To someone rebuilding to post-war spec, any surviving records may give some clues.

The biggest problem is the non-refundable fee which applies even if they should know beforehand that there is no chance of a search being successful. To be honest, I suspect that they'd happily bank a cheque from someone asking if they had a record card for a pink fairy-cycle.

A post on the WM20 forum should bring a response from someone with access to the BAOR 'Key Cards' which may detail the last user before being struck off charge but again this will shed no light on wartime history.

SCC NO.2 is a colour which is actually far too little seen on restored vehicles. Anecdotal evidence suggests that there were few British or Commonwealth manufactured vehicles in service in British Olive Drab by June 1944 and the majority of vehicles seem to have been brown, at least early on.

Incidentally, the Norton factory ledgers show a change of colour from 'Green' to 'Dull Green' during 1938 and then to 'Khaki' in 1939. It would seem likely that there were Dull Green vehicles with the BEF which explains some of the odd shading in photographs so there is probably a choice of four matt colours used from 1939 to 1945.

80 YB 83 is listed as S/O - MoS (Struck Off - Ministry of Supply) - ISS/1/255- 28-9-56. Chassis No.8334 - Contract C5612 - Converted from (wartime) census number 4153502. There is no information about location of disposal or previous units but the markings are clearly earlier than 1956.

Now don't be so cynical Rik! We all know it was the WLA that won the war. Along with the Enigma machine that was captured by the Yanks.

 

Ron

Shhh, Ron. No-one knows my name on here. Surely you know that wars are won by the side that makes the most noise (and has set up a film industry to carry on doing it more than sixty-five years later)

Is that a Motor Cycle or a Christmas Tree ?

Ideal for riding around Normandy each June demonstrating the Sy-reen that won the war !

As Stefano says, it really is an easy job to make and you'll know then that everything fits. Make it up on the bike with everything too long to start with. Modern cable (slightly oversize to replicate the old thicker insulation) sanded with a 'Scotchbrite' pad looks very like dull rubber.

The rubber tube which runs round the headstock from the headlamp can be made using a length of the smallest size black bicycle inner tube that you can find.

If you haven't got an original loom to copy, the only point to watch is that most WD diagrams don't include a dip-switch and civilian diagrams that do will not have the four-position light switch so you'll have to combine the two.

I thought others might find these photos interesting. They are from a larger set taken by one of the men in the pics below. Can anyone ID the unit?

Matt.

Hodges & Taylor's "British Military Markings 1939 - 1945" includes a GHQ MEF list dated November 1943 and which shows those units transferred to BNAF or in 15th Army at that time.

Arm of Service serial '1172' was allocated to 113 General Transport Company RASC.

I must be honest though, I can't see any red / green diagonal colour division but reds and greens can be difficult in B/W images.

A look on Geoff's Search engine on WW2talk shows six casualties from 113 GT Coy. in the MEF - All on the Alamein Memorial.

001 BROWN A T/223010 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 14/11/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 73.

002 GRAHAM A 5338132 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 10/05/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 74.

003 HULL P T/217993 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 21/06/1942 - - 22/06/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 75.

004 KILPATRICK W T/129533 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 03/06/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 73.

005 KNIGHT AS T/293406 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 14/11/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 76.

006 MULFORD P T/223073 113 GEN TRANSPORT COY 14/11/1942 ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

COLUMN 77.

These elbows are not made of aluminium, but of unobtanium.

Lex over on the WM20 forum says that he is at the pattern stage of having a batch cast. They're not as simple as they look.

It's a horrible thing to suggest but if the anvils weren't visible from the road, could it be that the thieves had perhaps seen photographs on the internet ?

I think that I'd be investing in a swivel-gun and a couple of man traps.

Do you struggle being so far away from the UK jumbles ? I'm only three hours from the Calais ferry and I couldn't manage without a jumble fix two or three times a year at least.

How is the James by the way ?

Does this excerpt from 'Vehicle Markings (1942)' help at all ?

I can find no other reference to markings for RE BD units in the copies that I have. Did No.2 Company come under London District ? If so then I'd expect their formation sign of a gold mural crown with red sword.

If you're anywhere near the IWM then I'd suggest a visit to their photo archives. You may well find images that show what you need to know (the on-line material is a small fraction of what they have).

personaly i dont travel alone or far on my wm20,as it is not safe in modern traffic. and it would be a shame after surviving 70 years.

I'm a little puzzled Mark. What is it about the M20 that you consider makes it unsafe in modern traffic ? The 16H has a pretty similar performance and I ride mine as often as I can, mostly alone. Obviously, motorways are things to avoid but it'll stand the odd blast to 60mph.

On-road presence is much better than many modern scooter things and I regularly scrape my boots so the cornering can't be too bad. With modern linings, the brakes are safe, if not startling in their power.

I honestly don't find bikes of this era a problem if ridden in an assertive but defensive manner.

Cel, you probably know better than me but wasn't Belgian kit marked in two languages by WW2 ? When did they introduce the ABBL marking ?

Have you asked Bovington if they've got the ex-Chilwell contract receipt cards for the Austins ? The cards are filed by make so easy enough to check. Chassis number info on the cards is unusual unless they were issued en-bloc and if the cars were ordered on RASC contracts then the information will be even less complete.

For RAOC vehicles, there should at least be delivery dates and some idea of the split between body types.

On the other hand, there are far more softskins in private ownership and we have a far greater chance of seeing them out and about. We can't have it all ways, I suppose.

The law is of course an ass as you'll have to learn to ride with Japanese standardised controls and then re-learn with a proper right-foot shift and 'one up and the rest down' pattern.

By the way, if you're getting 14bhp out of the Norton, can you list your tuning mods as they only left the factory with 12 ! They have a bit less power than the M20 but generally better gearing for maintaining main road speeds on a gradient.

Rob van Meel is the chap to talk with about reprint literature for WD motorcycles.

http://www.robvanmeel.nl/?q=catalog/431

The sidecar used by the RAF was the Norton model G which comprised a body thought to be made by Swallow on Norton's own distinctive chassis. If you're serious about the project, I'd suggest posting for the attention of Ron Pier on the WD16H or BSA WM20 forum as he has put one together.

I'm pretty sure that you can't drive a combination on a car licence. They used to be popular as a way of avoiding the 250cc restriction when riding on 'L' plates but I believe that concession has now fallen by the wayside with the standardised European rules.