79x100

I read it as :-

"Gents trade pattern bicycles to Contractor's standard specification 24" frames & complete with tools and toolbag, pump, bell + rear carrier complete with two straps. Lamps not required."

Were they used with webbing or leather straps on the rear carriers ?

David, Yes indeed. Far too many mis-spent hours and days in the National Archive. In this case together with 'Rewdco' who also posts here.

Visiting is straightforward - details are on the website. You'll need identification to obtain a reader's card and it is now compulsory to undergo a computerised test. I scored 100% with no re-takes so it's not too difficult ! Take a digital camera and make sure you know how to turn the shutter sound off. Camera stands are provided. It's better to copy everything you can get your hands on than to try reading and understanding it there as you'll just get bogged down in the details.

There are something over 400 Ministry of Supply contract ledgers relating to wartime contracts (some commence pre-war and end later). Of these, probably twenty or so are relevant to vehicles. However, although there are crude indices, they are not consistent and Demand, contract and completion dates can be in no particular order. The amount of detail shown varies considerably. Early war can be quite good but later contracts, once the MoS also took on AM and Admiralty purchases are little more than listings.

There are also files relating to MEE / TT2 tests and appraisals where you may find lots of detail (or nothing at all...it's a needle and haystack job).

Prior planning is essential. Anyone turning up without a list of files to look at won't get far in a day. I'll happily run through the most likely files with you.

Which manufacturer are you looking at and around which date ? If they were coincidentally on the same page as a motorcycle contract then I may have something on file.

Hercules certainly supplied bicycles to Ministry of Supply contracts in some considerable numbers but it's not always possible to tell from MoS ledgers if contracts were intended for the War Office or other official bodies. Some cycles (such as those supplied by Enfield) are referred to as 'WD Pattern'

This 1943 contract shows 7500 'Trade Pattern' cycles.

I've seen reference with other manufacturers to contracts split between 24" and 26" frames so the size does not rule out a government contract.

This entry shows that Phillips, Elswick Hopper and Hercules were contracted at the same time to produce 'spare parts for Hercules Bicycles' which perhaps suggests that Hercules didn't have the capacity themselves and points towards a considerable number in service.

I have only researched powered two-wheelers and don't have copies of the index pages relating to Bicycles or to manufacturers beginning with 'H' so the copies above are those that I have by chance. A days work in the National Archive would give a pretty good idea of numbers suppplied by Hercules but not in any great detail.

Jack, are you trying to work out if it'll fit down the back alley ?

Standard Norton WD16H bars, including the end plugs come out at about 28 1/2" . The bike can be ridden through a normal house door. Don't ask me how I know this but I only found out by chance when the wife and daughters were out...

Ironically enough, you do need a full licence, although few who have passed their tests within the the last thirty years would even know how to set the controls for starting and once you've passed your test, you'll have to un-learn all that gear change on the left nonsense.

Good Move, Matt. You'll be converting the Ducati to right-foot shift soon !

There is something to be said for being able to run top gear and not exceed the national speed limit. I enjoy it more and more (but I'm a good bit older and my 'modern' bike is now older than you are....)

Unless you're very lucky with the previous owner, you are likely to have teething troubles but once it's sorted, it shouldn't give problems over leisure mileage.

The clue is in the fouled anchor sleeve badge. The white helmet band indicated 'Beach Group' at that time.

Peter,

 

Well that makes really interesting reading ! according to the War Department the agreed 280 guns were reduced to 180 and the 1934 Model Gun promised was changed to the 1937 Model.

The very odd thing is that all of the black and white photographs of the 25mm Hotchkiss in British service at home and with the BEF are all Model 1934 Anti-Tank guns !

 

Could this be a major cock up by the War Department ?

 

Rob..................rnixartillery.

Rob,

I've finally got round to having a good look in this file.

It appears that the initial order was for 500 guns and these would have been 1934 pattern. 220 were delivered 'just before the war' and were used to equip 14th A/tk Regt (attached to 4th Division) plus the four regular division anti-tank companies who went first to France and then 5th Div who arrived later in 1939. These are the divisions who feature in the 'phoney war' exercise photos. Only 24 seem to have gone to the UK.

This initial delivery of 220 left 280 outstanding of which the British agreed to 100 being supplied to Turkey, leaving a required balance of 180 which seem to have been delayed and there is then the suggestion that these would have to be 1937 pattern (perhaps originally intended for Yugoslavia).

Of the outstanding 180 guns, 70 were delivered in February / March 1940, with 50 planned for April and 30 for May. The May deliveries probably never arrived.

These guns were used to complete the requirements of 48th, 50th and 51st Divisions (18 each) and to equip 42 and 44 Divs (27 each) - the latter two only went to France in April and were hardly photographed. Most of the rest were intended for BEF reserve so probably never saw action.

It looks therefore as if there were at least 196 Model 1934 with units in France by the end of 1939 and possibly a further 108 which may well have been 1937 pattern arriving by April 1940.

With the exception of 4th Northumberland Fusiliers from 50th Division, none of these latter divisions appear to have been photographed moving up into Belgium and it would presumably be difficult to discern French-operated Hotchkiss from British in the images of the aftermath. The most likely place to find any might be in the photographs of the end of 51st Divison at St. Valery, if the anti tank guns made it that far. I'll keep an eye open.

Rich

Canvas buckets have been dealt with on this forum in quite some detail...15 pages no less.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?300-Folding-canvas-buckets

I can't remember what the conclusion was but it all seemed funny at the time.

The Norton motorcycle production records have some interesting annotations regarding colours etc. Through 1936 - '37, WD machines are described simply as "Green"

The first production entry for 26/10/1938 is prefixed: "All WD M/Cs Dull Green from this date."

It was obviously an interim arrangement and was presumably a matt Deep Bronze Green as the entry for 13/6/1939 shows :

"First Khaki Solo WD M/Cs" so the 1938 change was clearly not to KG No.3

The paint stocks held by various factories and indeed precise contract terms could affect the dates that these changes came into effect but either a gloss or a dull green could be correct. However, the few pre-war parts that I've looked at don't seem to be a particularly high gloss - certainly nothing like a modern 2-pack finish.

MOD is a post-war name. War Office procurement was via the Ministry of Supply. I've never seen references to big Ajays. The MoS did order a couple of RE KXs for use by ROF (Royal Ordnance Factory) but it's often difficult with these contracts to see if they were military vehicles, with WD serial or simply for use by government departments.

For a 1942 bike, I wouldn't recommend Olive Drab, I'd recommend SCC No.2 Brown....

I've never seen any reference in British contracts to the use of G14 BSAs, nor have I seen any MEE test reports relating to them (They had enough problem with the 500s !)

The Dutch forces certainly took a variety of BSAs, pre-war. I'd suggest a post on the WM20 BSA forum. There is quite a strong Dutch presence there (to put it mildly).

I was at the NA for a couple of days last week and managed to find time for this file between the MEE and MoS stuff. It's quite small and contains no fantastic revelations or technical info - it's more to do with the French liason aspect. However, there are some interesting snippets relating to distribution of the guns. Give me a day or two to get the photos turned up the right way and tidied up a bit.

I saw an Ariel chaincase, I think and a BSA tin case as well. Lots of bitsas there.

It looks as if the Air Ministry was getting more than its fair share of the resources again !

Tha Army had to make do with a little less. 2 gallons, and signed for.

This is not my area at all, and it may be common knowledge but I see that there is a file in the National Archives relating to the acquisition of these guns. - WO193/517

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C164747

Unfortunately, no indication of how large the file is and how easy it would be to copy.

Google is giving me a warning on Tankmuseum too.

Safe Browsing

Diagnostic page for tankmuseum.org

What is the current listing status for tankmuseum.org?

Site is listed as suspicious - visiting this web site may harm your computer.

Part of this site was listed for suspicious activity 4 time(s) over the past 90 days.

What happened when Google visited this site?

Of the 9 pages we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 6 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent. The last time Google visited this site was on 2013-01-29, and the last time suspicious content was found on this site was on 2013-01-29.

Malicious software is hosted on 2 domain(s), including codeweb.cz/, ugnyspyr.ru/.

2 domain(s) appear to be functioning as intermediaries for distributing malware to visitors of this site, including amscanada.ca/, codeweb.cz/.

This site was hosted on 2 network(s) including AS25577 (C4L), AS15169 (Google Internet Backbone).

Has this site acted as an intermediary resulting in further distribution of malware?

Over the past 90 days, tankmuseum.org appeared to function as an intermediary for the infection of 1 site(s) including secretprojects.co.uk/.

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From the December 1939 2nd Infantry Division D.A.O.S. war Diary. It looks as if they struggled with the portee initially.

There is quite a handy website detailing reg. no. issue

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/yw.htm

KYW appears to have been a London C.C. series issued February 1950 - on.

The time taken to issue blocks can vary. Series used for private cars could be gone in a month. Others seem to have been used for years, perhaps because they had been block-issued to a particular dealer or agency.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no surviving detail of the Middlesex area numbers issued pre-war on War Department vehicles. I assume that large blocks were issued and the records held separately, perhaps for security reasons.

Tom, unfortunately it's not on-line so it means a visit to Kew. There is a lot of stuff there including RFC Maudsley and Peerless lorries as well.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/browse/C3304784?v=h

I stumbled across the references whilst looking for 1930s Ministry of Supply motorcycle records. The catalogue system continues to puzzle me. I've spent many happy hours trying to understand it.

Prior preparation is the key to a successful visit. They do allow copying and even have a limited number of camera stands.

We sometimes grumble about the lack of surviving records but I'm consistently amazed by just what has been retained. Incredible to think that vehicle tool kits were subject to a 30 year rule.

Rich

I stumbled across a file relating to RFC Crossleys in the National Archive on-line catalogue.

Is it a known file / of interest ?

AIR 10/85

Description:

Inspector of Transport Schedule "A". Priced List of Tools, Spares and Equipment carried on Crossley Car and Light Tender, Leyland Heavy Tender, P. & M. Motor Cycle

Date: 1918

Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Former references: in its original department: AP No. FS 57A

I know why they're there. I just want to know how to block them.

I do contribute financially to quite a number of forums but it's just not possible with them all so I suppose that I choose those where I feel most comfortable. I'd like to feel that I belonged here, I really would, but the frequent moderation that alternates between aggression and condescension can be a little wearying at times.

Every time that I look on here lately, I recoil...the annoying forum with the compulsory camouflaged advertising...The bad is starting to outweigh the good.

Are you sure you'll be able to handle the power, Lex ? We're talking 10bhp/litre here !

Was there any other service vehicle with a lower specific power output ?