mcspool

I remember the surprise when I read the release papers for my Dutch Army Land Rover that was apparently a "Jeep".

That is because to 99% of the world´s population any 4x4 is a jeep. . . .

The current 4x4 utility truck of the Dutch Army, the Mecedes-Benz 290GD Geländewagen, is most commonly referred to as "jeep", quite often even as "MB jeep"!

H.

P.S. sorry to get off topic, although the 290GD shown below could be referred to as a descendant of the Humber Box . . .

Apart the strange concept of calling something an "Army Tank"

It did help tremendously when we were transporting a Ram Kangaroo hulk from the UK to Holland. The customs officer scanned the from which described the load as "tank". He started to ask all sort of questions about the type of liquid the tank contained, until we mentioned "no, no, it´s an Army Tank". He then gave a sigh of relief, scribbled on the form and signed and stamped it. Off we went! (And the rest of the story can be read here: http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/restorations/restore7.html.)

- Hanno

I should have done a more detailed caption for the Pakistan photo, I understood it wasn't a Firefly, just thought it was a nice find. The point being that even today it's possible to find a reasonably complete Sherman that isn't modified beyond recognition :-)

A nice find indeed! Read more about the M4A1E4 here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/pak.htm

With many still surviving, it is indeed still possible to find (relatively) complete Sherman tanks. The problem often is they are in countries where is is difficult if not impossible to buy tanks, plus the added cost of moved 30-odd tons halfway across the globe.

But if your pockets are deep enough, there´s a Sherman out there with your name on it.

Hanno

If you have a sharp eye you will also spot that the Firefly for sale in Holland could well be one of the retrofitted Argentinean Fireflies, note the muzzle break

Yes, the picture posted on Joop Staman´s site definitely shows an Argentinean Sherman Repotenciado.

H.

Hanno

 

Do we know what has hapened to the Argentian Shermans?

 

Are they still in service or long gone.

Ref. my web page http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/ra.htm

In 1979 120 Sherman VCs and Sherman Hybrid ICs were converted. With the gradual entrance into service of the TAM tank in the early 1990s, they were passed to the operational depots where they were reconditioned and put in storage, to be used in the event of strategic or military necessity.

I know that by the late 1999s some MV dealers went to Argentina. The Shermans were available for sale back then, but economics made it unfeasible to buy and ship them to Europe.

Hanno

there is a properly converted Grizzly at Camp Borden in Canada, seemingly a prototype that never developed beyond that stage

This was done when the source of Shermans suitable for conversion to 17-pdrs dried up after US production switched over to wet stowage hulls and 76-mm gun turrets. As you know, the last Shermans to be converted into Fireflies were early M4´s. These had been used for training early during WW2, handed in when the US units went overseas with new equiment and rebuilt for further issue. By that time the US Army had standardised on the M4A3, so a number of the M4´s were available for release to the Allies. Mind you, US Ordnance intially condemned the conversions the British carried out.

The Grizzlies assembled in Canada were a potential second source of Shermans suitable for conversion, but by this time the forecast for numbers of Shermans needed, including Fireflies, was cut back. As you know that is why assembly of the Grizzly shut down after only 188 were built; the number required could be built by the US factories.

H.

perhaps it will be a 17 day rebuild like the Sherman in 2004

Jim,

That´s a record for sure! Worthy of a mention in the Guinness Book of Records, if not a token of appreciation in the shape of a keg of Guinness? I´m sure you were thirsty during those 17 days.

Keep up the good work, looking forward to seeing your M4 HST restorations.

Regards,

Hanno

Alastair,

I recon the number of usable Firefly turrets + guns equal the number of Firefly hulls left, albeit scattered around the world so the difficulty is in getting them together.

a presumably privately owned Ic hybrid on the continent, both running/restored.

There are two Vc restorations going on at the moment in the UK, not hard to guess whose but at this moment in time, neither have a multibank engine ready.

There´s another under restoration on the continent, the engine is still giving headaches so it might be repowered by a twin diesel setup.

There is the Grizzlyfly that appears at Beltring and Mons but that doesn't count.!

Grizzlyfly? Oh, you mean that Firely!

there is one coming for sale here http://www.jeeparts.nl/shop/N_frame.html?http://www.jeeparts.nl/shop/

The Argentinean Fireflies are most certainly an option, but do bear in mind they have been re-engined and re-gunned: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/ra.htm

- Hanno

To me it sounds like the steam railways enthusiast equivalent of . . . . . the 50-dollar-jeep-in-the-crate!

- Hanno

Bloody nice truck, Hanno. Good call.

One of these was offered for sale on MilWeb sometime last year. I got interested as I did not know the Dutch Army had their own workshop body. I asked some people in the know and they came up with information. Then found this pic while browsing one of the Dutch HMV club sites.

I am glad to see this truck in proper Dutch Army configuration and livery. It makes a refreshing change from a bog standard CCKW in US markings (not that I have anything against them, I married in one!).

- Hanno (from Holland)

I m guessing the side opens and the three pipes are legs for the lower half when lowered to form a deck ?

Yes, it is a workshop truck of which the side opens to expand the working area. Sorry, I don´t have pics of one fully deployed.

- Hanno

Would love to see Hanno's photograph collection!!!!

Click here

Seriously Jack, I find a lot through actively participating in great internet forums like this one.

That said, I do have quite a number of pictures from the pre-digital camera era that need scanning sometime (after I retire, perhaps...)

- Hanno

Here's a rare GMC, ex-Dutch Army with post-war Dutch-built workshop. Only an handful built of which a few survive.

- Hanno

Something else I noticed on one of the HSTs is a toothed metal strip bolted to the lower front panel, I also have one on the transmission cover of my Sherman.

 

I have heard that when tracked vehicles were being shipped over to the UK to aid moving them around on the docks ropes were fastened to the steering tillers and then taken outside the sealed (for shipping ) vehicle and tied off on this toothed metal bar.On shermans the ropes came through the 30cal bow gun mount , not sure where they would have exited on the HST.The toothed bar has been nicknamed "the comb" by some people.

Read the full story here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/comb.htm

- Hanno

There are curently 3 in the Dutch Army , one from t`Harde , another one from the Delft collection , and one near Wassenaar. on the same site there is also that yellow space cab ex Schiphol airfield fire tender M4 , so actually 4.

See, when you start counting a certain type of HMV, there's always more than you can imagine.

Anyone wants to make a guess as to how many surviving Sherman tanks and related AFVs there are?

- Hanno

For sale????

Don´t think so: it´s at the Wings of Liberation Museum

http://www.jagdtiger.de/index2.htm?http://www.jagdtiger.de/USVeh/M4HST-01.htm

I counted four M4 HST´s in Holland. One at the Wings of Liberation Museum, two at the General Marshall Museum, and one in the Royal Netherlands Army historical collection.

HTH,

Hanno

In 1968 I had just started work at £8 a week. That means a Dingo would have been nearly 5 weeks salary.....

That´s a good comparison for HMV prices "back in the good old days" . . . the British £ was still worth it´s weight in gold back then.

- Hanno

Jack, futher to Adrian and Maurice´s anorak discussions ( :-) ), here´s what they looked like:

source: http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m4sherman.html

- Hanno

If you have a .50 cal on the cupola, it's always in the way. It fouls the hatches, makes it harder getting out in a hurry and generally is a pain in the neck.

 

There are plenty of photos showing them in use on British Shermans but I don't believe it was that widespread, an extra .30 being just as useful and much easier to handle.

Arnold Faragher, 1CACR Kangaroo veteran RIP, told me one of the .50-cal MGs on their Priest Kangaroos got stuck in some tree branches in Normandy and hurt a crew member when it swung round. They found them too much of a burden, so they ditched them and got .30-cal MGs instead.

- Hanno

Is this a post-war modification? Dutch Army, perhaps?

Belgian Army, actually. Most likely this is a conversion using a standard M4A4 hull with a Firefly turret for display purposes.

But, there is a slight chance this conversion was carried out earlier. At some point in time the Belgian Army had over 200 Sherman Fireflies, including ones they reworked themselves. Rumour has it some of them were actually converted from standard M4A4´s, retaining the hull MG.

But to be safe, I´d stick to the first option.

- Hanno

- http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/b.htm

I knew a dealer in Sussex who only in recent years had five of them, all sold to collectors now though. Think one was mocked up and used in 633 Squadron.

Hi Richard,

How recent could it be when you mention a mid-1960s film in the same sentence? Or is it that time flies when you´re having fun? :-)

- Hanno

The 6x4 Crossley armoured cars seem to have the door hinged at the rear, whereas the 4x2 Crossleys had them hinged at the front. So I don't think it is a 6x4.

My guess is based on the similarities of the hull and the fact that the 6 x 6 was supplied to Iraq. I would love to be proven wrong, though.

I think Tim can handle the chassis work. But why is going to recreate the domed turret? Adrian?

- Hanno

Just out of curiosity, whereabouts in Iraq?

I don't know, the pics were sent to me by someone as I was looking for Sherman tanks in Iraq: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgallery.php?cat=797

The Crossley was part of a group of AFVs including Sherman TRV, Daimler AC, and Indian Pattern Wheelded Armoured Carrier.

- Hanno

I believe it is a Crossley, 6 x 6, (Medium) Armoured Car built during the early 1930s. A number of these were supplied to Iraq. That is where these remains were photographed around 2005.

Anyone packing their bags already?

- Hanno

Here's a nice HMVF restoration project.

It needs identification and recovery first, though!

Any takers?

- Hanno