fv1609

No England actually:)

Whilst CW is reloading. Anyone remember this film?

Looks like perspex overlaid from the outside. Seems to be a strange frame & a fitting in the middle of the lower frame. Calm down dear.

Yes it does look tidy. But I don't know why it is that strange colour. Whether it is early or late I don't know, it certainly was not built in 1954. No pigs were built before 1956 & they were FV1609. This is either a FV1611 or FV1612 & they were built 1958-60. No doubt the chassis was built in 1954 as a GS Truck. Why do we have 4 shots of the front & 3 of the cab? The cab looks very complete, but it would have been nice to see a shots of the engine bay, the rear, the underneath & the rear internal. Most of the shots convey similar information to each other. I note that there is no 4th antenna mount on the rear off side. Signifying this is not converted to FFR so is either a FV1612 FFW or FV1611 (APC). Looking at the generator panel it it looks like a No.1, indicating the Generator No1, so this must be a FV1611 APC. There seems to be a drivers seatbelt, which is a non-original later addition, nothing wrong with that if it enhances safety. The fire extinguisher is mounted on the drivers door it should be on the side wall behind the commander. There are no wing mirrors & no front light cages. These are all minor things. If the bits we aren't shown are up to the standard of what we are shown it certainly looks promising. It would have been nice to have more information, not just about its type & history. But whether the engine runs ok & whether the axles are all working given the vulnerability to rear axle failure as this was not just a problem for the Mk 2.

NATO Green is BSC 285. When I've used it I've only used genuine stuff, you don't don't see the real stuff around much these days. It used to be fairly plentiful, because it had a fairly short shelf life. But this was for the IRR pigment, the paint itself lasted ages. There are a number of firms that do repro NATO Green, but no experience of them. Are you sure of the era you want to represent? Because if you want to be 1970s IRR NATO Green was not around then. NATO Green was only accepted in the BSC chart in 1980. The Materiel Regulations introduced IRR NATO Green in Dec 1980 & the Defence Standard was only released in Nov 1980. Prior to that if high Gloss Deep Bronze Green was not used & a camo colour was needed it was matt Olive Drab BSC 298. Pigs that were uparmoured in Op Bracelet (Sep 1972 - June 1973) initially seemed to be painted high gloss DBG. Thereafter OD until 1980 then NATO Green.

Adam, a significant fade would take a couple of years, but if you cover it up to keep out the sunshine that will delay things enormously. You will need to cover it up anyway because the thing will leak & everything would otherwise go mouldy & rusty. Besides a little bit of fade adds to the authenticity that you have painted it in IRR NATO Green. Some people paint their Land Rovers in paint made up in semi-gloss in NATO Green, as that is more durable & looks smarter. Smarter maybe but it doesn't give the finish of IRR NATO Green, so doesn't look authentic.

IRR NATO Green IRR NATO Green is notorious for fading. But your pig will be a loved thing, I imagine it would be under cover in some form. Even a tarpaulin will keep the sun off.

Yes some things virtually unrestored have a certain authenticity & have that just been discovered magic. As far as the grey goes. The other problem was that some people who accepted grey was correct considered it far too light. Well Light Admiralty Grey IS light! That was the colour of the Commers that remained grey, what I found on my vehicle & used on the early RUC Hotspur Land Rovers. I think people had got fixed in their minds the colour of the final RUC vehicles which were more of a dark slate grey.

OK CW, but I'm trying not to have to paint it for a little while yet! Already harvested the pig pics, I remember commenting on some of the internal fittings of the Aldershot Museum pig. [Can you pm me with your email, so I can send you those other references]

Bit of a conundrum that one! This is the fourth colour since initial restoration! When it was withdrawn from Troop Trials in 1958 & sold to the Ministry of Home Affairs for RUC use I have no doubt that it was Deep Bronze Green. It would have continued in green of some sort through to its conversion with an armoured roof completed in March 1961. On 18/4/61 the Humbers & Commers were instructed to be painted grey. I have no doubt that this was Light Admiralty Grey: 1. Given the proximity to shipyards with naval contracts. 2. I have found traces of LAG on the vehicle 3. A few Commers survived without being later painted green, look to be LAG. On 18/10/62 the Humbers & Commers were instructed to be painted "Olive Drab Green" by 1/1/63 In August 1969 someone was given a tour of the RUC workshops & recorded that the interiors were painted white & externally "Rustoleum Green" which has anti-rust properties. However I decided to go for the 1961-62 look. So I painted it LAG for its first year on the circuit. But there were problems: 1. The jibes that it was still in primer wore rather thin after a season of it. 2. General stupidity from public & enthusiasts not taking the vehicle seriously - I remember being next to a Mk 2 pig & a couple not all interested in my pig but were impressed the Mk 2 saying "Look here is a Belfast one" I felt like screaming in my best Victor Meldrew voice "What BH do you think the registration 2996 OI is if it isn't Belfast". 3. If I wanted to go to a show at an establishment green is more likely to get in then grey. So I painted in some gloss sort of Olive Drab that I had lying around. I had no help from Rustoleum in finding what greens they had available in 1969. The only modern Rustoleum Green I have seen was very like Forest/Dark Brunswick Green. Shorlands were painted the same colour as the Humbers. I have a 1966 RUC Shorland & found the deepest layer was a satin finish green virtually identical to Forrest Green. Being a meanie I decided to mix up this myself using paints I already had. It was mainly Deep Brunswick, some Deep Bronze, some matt Black, a little NATO Green & calcium carbonate powder to matt it down. It was a very close match to the Shorland. Last year I had to spray it 4 times before I got any sort of uniform coverage. I ran into trouble with a rough surface with what I thought was the calcium carbonate, but I later realised was largely due to my poor spraying technique. However I have wrestled with the fact that I have in my possession some photos of Humbers, Shorlands & Commers taken by the man that noted Rustoleum Green was used. But these pictures show a very flat green rather like NATO Green. But this was 1969 & NATO Green hadn't been invented yet. So I assumed that it was in fact Olive Drab & the slight colour discrepancy could be accounted for with lighting & aging of the photos. Although I cannot explain the colour on my Shorland & the lack of signs of OD. The majority evidence has to be that it was Olive Drab. I think the reference to Rustoleum Green could be explained in that it was used as the base coat as a rust preventative.. So having rubbed the pig down & covered it in red oxide. I set about ordering OD BSC298. On asking one supplier I was told that it was not used in the war, but I felt like Basil Fawlty - I never mentioned the war! Anyway he didn’t have any. Another supplier indicated they stocked it & it was ready for dispatch the next day but took a week & a half. So it is eggshell OD now. Sorry long story but the painting has been a bit of a challenge, not just choosing the most likely colour. But realising how difficult it is to make a decent job of spraying anything other than gloss.

Yes that was the beauty of them designed to be configured in a variety of roles. Initially intended for RAC, RA, RE, RS & Infantry. A range of "approved equipment" could be fitted to the top-hat section on the inside (although initially this was wood). The vertical bars on the outside are again for approved equipment. That is my pig 2996 OI, it is the oldest surviving pig in the world. Although it is an APC it is not a FV1611 but a FV1609A & restored/reconstructed in its RUC role. There are, at the last count, 59 differences between that & the production pig.

Champ & Humber FV1600

Instrument Panel No 1, Mk 1, FV157927 not just Champ, but Humber FV1600, Ferret, Saracen, Saladin etc ie all standardised 'A' & 'B' Vehicles.

I hope not, BS predated the first Mk 2 pig by 9 months. But historical facts are often of not much interest to film makers. There were two films on BS done at about the same time at least one of these used Mk 2 pigs I'm afraid. One famous confrontage of the event was well recorded on newsreel footage. The film used a Saracen APC with weedy water hose in the turret. The real event showed a Foden water canon that looks entirely different! I remember in the real event as the Foden moves in & sprays the crowd & then the camera crews with dyed water. A certain satisfaction can be detected in the voice of a soldier as he shouts out "Brilliant guv!"

Popham Airfield Nr Basingstoke/Winchester event was cancelled on 5th May due to waterlogged ground. I have just received notification that the event is now to be held on Sun 3rd August 2008. That weekend also hosts the "Microlight Trade Fair". Vehicle exhibitors are allowed to attend the saturday as well with free overnight camping. This is an improvement as I don't like using all that fuel just for a one day event! If you want to enter let me know & I'll find the contact details I had somewhere.

The first picture I strongly believe is my FV1609 built in 1956 as 32 BK 74. Was issued to the RUC in 1958 became 2996 OI. Seen here with added on roof in 1969. In 1970 became 27 BT 95 & subsequently made into a Mk2 The other shots show not a FV1609 but a FV1611. 13 BK 01 was issued to RUC in 1962 to replace a FV1609 that had been destroyed. The replacement was registered as 3071 EZ. In 1970 issued to the Army as 27 BT 91. Amazingly this officer survived, despite being later attacked with scaffolding & bricks. But in the period 1969-98 over 300 officers did not survive attacks on them.

Adam I'm afraid this isn't going to help you. It looks like the same time & same location as the other picture.

This is for Adam Elkins with his Ambulance Pig Mk2 03 BK 20. It was built originally as FV1601 GS Truck on Chassis No. 20320 The record card gives the date in service as 20/3/53, but the ledger gives 12/3/53 Receipt Voucher No. CBR/R/9598 showing it was delivered to 3rd Vehicle Group, RAOC HQ, Church Broughton The original Engine No. 6030 Between 1958-60 it was made into a pig FV1611. At this stage FV1613 Ambulances did not exist, these conversions may have been as early as 1963 but the main EMER for conversion from FV1611 to FV1613 was issued in 1965. Conversion to Mk 2 under Op Bracelet would have been between Sept 1972 – June 1973. I can see no documentary evidence that it ceased to be anything other than the ambulance it clearly is from your photos. But I have two photos showing it to be a Flying Pig APC. Here is one of them. It was struck off on 2/9/94 to Skyddsvakt, Sweden. So happy googling with that one!

For anyone who has a Humber FV1600, I can usually provide: Date in Service Chassis Serial No. Original Engine No. Date Struck off Census Location where struck off Date of Sale Sale No. Lot No. Price Paid Date of conversions, re-purchase etc Unfortunately I do not have details of Units that used them. But in the case of pigs often I can source a picture of it.

Oh no John you've got completely the wrong idea.

It's all easier said than done but this is the overall shape of things, whilst incorporating the folds from the other diagrams. If you are planning on organising your missus to do the repair properly in your workshop, you should allow 150 sq ft per sewing machine & appoint the following staff: Supervisor Chargehand Textile refitters Tent repairers Labourers

Andy, when you patch a hole it must be with old material as new material will shrink. The patch can be glued on or if stitching, done in this sequence to encourage the water to fall away from the joins. As described in Manual of Army Ordnance Services Volume 1. Pamphlet No.22. Instructions for the repair of tentage & covers waterproof. The official stuff for waterproofing canvas is Mystox. http://www.catomance.co.uk/pdf/Tent_Reproofing.pdf I believe the 101 Club sell it to members This is actually Olive Drab, but it will blend in with NATO Green on the rest of the vehicle quite well. If you want IRR NATO Green you must not use vehicle paint as it will damage the canvas. You should use: Paint, finishing, IRR, emulsion, matt, NATO green air drying H1/8010-99-225-0094

AL quite a few points there to comment on. But to do it justice to the subject hope the boys can sort the link to this article: http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/TheEarlyHumberPigs.pdf There never was a recovery truck, but I have the design document dated I think 1948 for a Humber recovery truck FV1606. But it was never built. The Hornet launcher (FV1620) fired Malkara & I have one in the sheds. Funny you should mention backfiring I have split the siliencer & need to weld that up, before its first show in 4 weeks!

Yes AL is quite right. 1st gear engages FWD & spreads the load between front & rear axles. For this reason when reversing, 4WD was to be selected. The problem was that transmission windup occured by 4WD selector being left engaged. An auto disengage mechanism was fitted in 1976. The sad saga of tracta joints is covered here: http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/PIGINAPOKE.pdf Braking was upgraded in the sense that a double servo was fitted. Most Mk 2 had this conversion, but it was not part of Op Bracelet. It was to be done as & when the pig was due for an overhaul from 1979. I have seen a few Mk 2 still with single servo.

Nothing wrong with being a corporal, we all had to start somewhere. Well look at Hitler he was a corporal before he promoted himself.