RecyMech

Damn it all sir, tish & piffle the mans found one !!!:shocked: Well roger me with the wrong end of a rag mans trumpet :nut: Another rumour ticked off & dispelled for all time. H

Just been checking photos again & I found a close up of the head light guards on a Mk6, those two redundant bolts in the outside edge of the wing match perfectly where the covers are hinged on this Mk6. Also, the Mk5 ACV I found pictures of earlier (found two more since) also has that welded plate on the rear engine covers & the long hatch stop bracket on both. One shot shows the hatch open & you're right it comes down no where near horizontal. Also found a pic of an infantry Mk5 with that same welded plate....so it's not just confined to ACVs. You may be onto something with it being ex-RFC there. Was there a retro-fit programme at some point to convert those cancelled Libyan Mk6s back to temperate climate spec possibly ?? Mk6s with beehives seem to have either a very short hatch stop with a rubber bump pad or nothing there at all. Maybe the hatch stop bracket is from earlier non RFC vehicles, but the addition of the welded plate raises it up ? Or maybe it's deliberate to make pulling the hatch back shut a little less heavy. Still hav'nt found any reference of ACV in service in NI though (yet anyway) Quote Alien;- The ACV may have been replaced within the RA field HQ set-up, but most definitely not universally. Point taken, must stop listening to the rumour mill. Saracen....most facinating motor...IN THE WORLD! Howard.

Just to self correct my last post.....having scoured a few more pictures, I've just found a shot of an uparmoured ACV, so it looks like ACVs did make it past Mk2 (I stand erected).....but still no signs of any NI gear on it though. I shall keep looking...... Howard.

Hi, I'm fully prepared to be shot down in flames here but my understanding is;- The ACV was (hull wise) just a modified infantry APC on the Mk2 (normal height hull with the little wings poking out of the upper hull & tent framework on the rear) The ATO teams in NI though only used normal APCs & not the ACV, as far as I'm aware. I've collected a few pics of ATO Saracens in NI & they all appear to be Mk6 APC with the RFC (reverse flow cooling) kit. I've also got pictures of the ACVs & none appear to have the mesh head light & tail light guards common to NI use. You say it has been "uparmoured for NI use". My understanding is that Saracens were upgraded & uparmoured from Mk5 onwards but this had nothing to do with NI specifically. Pigs however were uparmoured specifically for NI under Operation Bracelet in order to meet the armour piercing bullet threat posed by the IRA. Pigs were certainly fitted with anti mine radio jamming gear though. But the ACV only made it as far as the Mk2 & was not part of the general uparmouring programme, it was replaced by the high roof ACP (armoured command post) which again I've not seen used in NI. So, does your ACV have round or square ventilation fan housings, & a round or square fuel filler neck? If round in both cases then it is not 'uparmoured'. Any sign of wire mesh cages having been fitted over the headlights ? Howard.

Interesting, despite the other upgrades, I see some were left with the older 3 door turret & not the improved 2 door job. Looks like the SA weather has been fairly kind to them too. At least the pics proove Monty does not have a rare 'one off' (although rare by UK standards) & that it's fairly safe to assume that a lot, if not all, SA Saracens were of the Saracen 88 type. Also that the one in MMI is not a "sole survivor" by a long chalk. For me at least this has been an interesting thread. Did you drop GKL a line Monty, maybe they can offer more info on how many & when / where converted. Howard

Monty, MASSIVE e mail on its way back to you, let me know if you get any problems with downloading. Think you'll find it interesting. Enjoy. Re the Saracen model, it is 1/24th scale, was released in February this year as the MK5/6 version. About 8" long. Full interior detail, Rolls B80, working doors & hatches. Or as we say in the UK "The Full Monty". (sorry chaps, had to use that line) Click here http://www.kitformservices.com/tq.html & then scroll down just past the Stalwart which is right at the top of the page. Click the little camera Icons for pictures. Sadly the MK5/6 is the uparmoured version so I can't reverse engineer it to do an 88 conversion package. Keep us up to speed on what you discover. Howard.

Typical....something that is supposedly 'dinosaur rare' & then two come along in the same week. Pictures pictures pictures we need more pictures.:cool2: Howard.

Monty Contact me off group here Howard@kitformservices.fsnet.co.uk & we'll see what we can do. Howard.

Hi Monty, Well, I hope you get fully to the bottom of the saga, your Saracen has obviously had a very interesting life so far & it would be great to find out for sure when it was exported, & who actually did all the mods & where they were done (by GKL here or under license over there) Not to mention where, if, when it saw any action. Are the South African army (or your MOD) forthcoming with service history perhaps ?? Maybe even GKL themselves would give you some background, there are contact e mail addresses on their website. Having done a pile of research for our 1/24th scale Saracen kit already, (see here http://www.kitformservices.com/tq.html) I find this subject just fascinating. If our kit was`nt an uparmoured version I'd be considering doing a mod pack for the kit to do an 88. Hope you crack all the mechanical problems too. We can smell the hypoid oil from here mate. Keep us all up to speed with any history you get on her. Best Regs.....Howard.

Hi Richard, Well the Saracen in your link certainly has the same 3 colour paint job as the one in MMI, & it must be the same company...GKL. Now, who's correct ?...did they only build one prototype as the feature says (& Monty has by a quirk of fate aquired it) or did they build a bunch for SA? (hush hush)....or was it farmed out to a subsidiary company for production (who, where, how many)?.....the plot thickens. Hope Monty can eventually shed some light on it. Come on Monty do some digging mate. Howard.

Hi All, Me again. Just been excitedly re-reading that MMI feature, seems GKL also fitted the air/hydraulic braking system that Monty thought was a South African mod. Studying the pics on here & comparing to the feature I've spotted a good 5 other small mods that are identical & match the featured 88 perfectly, chequer plate on the front wings, & knee height access steps to the engine compartment for example. There is a small picture of the original sales brochure too showing it was modified to mount a 50cal on the AA Bren ring. If the 88 is really rare as it says & Monty has one, that would be something would`nt it ? The feature states "it was a one off prototype & never went into production". Spooky. Howard.

Hi All, I've only just caught up with reading this thread (fascinating though). Apart from a mention by Oily back in post No7 there has been no mention so far of this being a Saracen 88, reputedly VERY rare. I have in front of me a 4 page article from Military Machines International Magazine July 2002 covering the Saracen 88.....& the vehicle is identical to Monties (apart from the colour). Although I think Montie said his was a standard Mk3.....it's not is it ? There are 14 very good pictures in the feature showing the 23 improvements carried out on Mk2 Saracens by a British company called GKL Equipment Pte Ltd. The extended nose, hinged front grill, different "German style" headlights & smoke dischargers, front tow hook, stowage bins, air outlet louvres, & all new electrics to name a few. The extended nose "allowed GKL to offer a diesel engine version". The vehicle was apparently showcased in 1988 (hence the name) & I think I noticed the build plate inside Monties motor is dated 1988 According to the article, the one featured was "the sole surviving example" & was "shortly to be exported to the US". Does anyone else have that MMI issue ?, if so have a shuftie & see if you agree. Montie could be sitting on (in) something very rare if the feature is accurate. Howard.

I just logged on here to say I 'thought' I saw 4 Hurricanes fly over our house (Stickney, near Coningsby) but surely it could'nt be, could it?........obviously it was !!! What a fantastic sight. See the Spitfire regularly.....Hurricane less often. So I could'nt believe my eyes to see 4. Seen the Dakota going in & out twice as well, always with the side door open. Last year it came up the lane at tree top level, throttled right back, coughing, spluttering, farting & popping through the exhausts.....sounded like a bunch of Hells Angels approaching. Our lane is a dead straight line from Coningsby to the ranges at Friskney on the coast. Everyday an airshow round here :nut: Howard.

You got off lightly...try having a Centurion deck panel drop on you. Man that hurts.:cry: Howard.

Morning all, Can I pick the collective brain again please? Could anyone with an MK wearing Bar-Grip tyres confirm the tyre size as 12.00 x 20 please & more importantly the wheel width rim to rim. Not the diameter of the wheel but the head on width inside rim to outside rim. The data is for the pattern maker working on our Bedford MK kit right now, we`ve blown up some smaller drawings but ended up with conflicting info. Cheers for any help all. Howard.

Fair point Neil, fair point :-D But the model won't snap a half shaft & leave you stranded needing a low loader....or cost much to fill up at the pumps.....& you dont have to go outside to admire your handywork :cool2: Hope you enjoy building the Stolly up, should be a tad easier than hanging upside down in the engine bay of Little Maud mate. Later....Howard

Thanks gents...corking ! Shall now go exploring 'similar threads' Cheers....Howard.

Hello Gents, I wonder if any can help me out with any photographs of 3 items of 1970s Northern Ireland riot gear. In particular the flak jacket (front & rear), riot shield (especially the grips & the size) & the 50s pattern steel helmet with visor. Trying to source decent pics to create NI figures for our 1/24th scale Saracen & Pig kits. Any digi pics e mailed to addresss below would be superb, cheers. many thanks, Howard @ KFS (RecyMech) http://www.kitformservices.com howard@kitformservices.fsnet.co.uk

Hi Gents, Just a thought here...I don't know of any of you B Series petrol heads are also model makers ? or maybe fancy a model of your Saracen Mk5/6, Mk2 Humber Pig, or Mk2 Stolly ?....in a decent scale though not the usual 1/35th. But if anyone is interested please have a quick shuftie at our range of present & future kits. They may be more expensive than the 1/35th stuff from the likes of Accurate Armour I grant you...but the detail is something else. These are 1/24th scale (half inch to the foot). Go to http://www.kitformservices.com then click on TQ Range in the left side menu. The military stuff is right at the top of the TQ page. Contact details are up on the site also. Stolly Mk2 & Saracen 5/6 are in stock now Humber Pig is in the casting phase FV623/624 crane version is in the master pattern stage, as is the Bedford MK Saladin coming up in the summer & Ferret later in the year AEC Matador first off the blocks next year. Best regards all.......Howard @ KFS (RecyMech)

Ah, even better then. Might just turn up armed with camera & a pen. A pest in person is harder to turn away than a pest on the phone !! Many thanks Howard.

Many thanks for the links Chris, just sent Andy a message, hope he's up for it. I found the Ramco website earlier today, but could'nt see a Saracen listed anywhere...is it possibly a gate guard or something ? Or maybe I'm blind & looking in the wrong place ? Anyway, have sent them an e mail & will have to see if they respond. Shall give them a bell if not....nothing like being a pest ! Cheers again. Howard.....RecyMech

Chris...Brilliant thanks for that. I take it Ramco is a company in Skeg ?, I'm only 20 minutes from Skeg. Will do a search & see if I can find that one. Re Andy in Derby...also very handy. Derby is within reach of both myself & my pattern maker who is in Sheffield. Would you have any further contact details for Andy per-chance ? Cheers...Howard @ KFS

Hello Everyone, Being right on the cusp of releasing our very first 1/24th scale classic British military vehicle kit (Stalwart Mk2, see here in the TQ Section @ http://www.kitformservices.com) I'm now already looking for assistance with the next project....Saracen. Does anyone out there have a nice restored Saracen APC Mk1/2/3 maybe (preferably not ambulance or ACP though) that I can crawl over, measure up & photograph to death ? Somewhere within reach of Boston Lincs would be nice but I'm happy to travel to find & study a good one. The more restored & complete/tidy/original the better. I've ordered up a User Handbook & already got some other useful books & pamphlets but you can't beat photographing one in the flesh. Any help & assistance much appreciated. Thanks Howard @ KFS (RecyMech) PS Worth a look at the 11" long Stalwart kit even if you're not a model maker.

Hi Neal, Regiment museums are on my list of possible sources for info. Guess I was just hoping in vein that someone would recommend a book that had it all, ready sourced. I keep finding snippets in publications I already have...but most pictures tend to be black & white & only one end of the vehicle. Shall keep searching though. Howard.