nz2

The hubs of the rear axles  have a design pattern more like a Dennis.  Also similar where some American trucks of WW1. Overall the chassis appears to have been extensively modified and strengthened, hiding features that could identify it. The front tyre appears to be 24 inch so latter 1920's. The radiator is too deep for a Thornycroft.  

Tomo T comments regards these being a prototype is always a fair point. The build register shows the use of the M4 engine being available from July 1913, however it appears the L4 engine continued to be more popular by demand. Well at least more were supplied in lorries passing out of the factory. 

 The point of sending them to the Colonies  also raises issues, for many are listed as being supplied to the home market. Tozer, Kemsley and Fisher were exporting agents also sending products from many other different manufactures all about the world. Although their name appears regularly on the dispatch column there is no indication as to where these vehicles went to.

 To make things a little easier for me in New Zealand, a local firm of A. Hatrick & Co. began importing Thornycrofts, placing their first order on 30-8-1912.  To confuse the issue Hattrick's also had an office in Sydney, and there are still Thornycroft's in Australia with a Hatrick agency name plate. No records are known to have survived from the Hatrick companies covering the imported chassis numbers. From the Thornycroft production records the Hatrick name appears fifty five times to April 1915, the last five being ordered after the commencement of hostilities. Eleven different models are recorded as been  delivered.

These early J models did have their problems in France during the early months of The Great War with the major repair depots making changes to the vehicle parts. Apparently a replacement rear axle casing  was designed and cast in France by the depot, to replace the five piece diff housing as used on these early J's. This then became the standard when the J model was repowered to the M4 engine  in August 1915.

 From Steve's photos we can see the gearbox was another item that received a dramatic change in form, along with the position of the fuel tank. Other changes to the Subsidy wagon included the steering track rod being moved to behind the axle, the front wheels became larger and the front spring hangers were moved from the front to the rear end of the springs. 

Steve in providing these photos and passing on more data by email has greatly assisted in allowing the similar J here to progress further towards restoration, for now there is another one to compare with.  

 Doug 

What is the history of this? Any idea what vehicle it was on?

 Doug

I can use the word same so many times when comparing those photos, except for the circular gearbox which I don't have.

 Doug

10 hours ago, mammoth said:

 

"Accordingly,. do I have a consensus for a historical revision and call this an  'L4 Chassis' rather than a 'J', or perhaps 'L4J'."

 

   From the Thornycroft Progressive Number Register book the chassis is described as a CH J .

What the CH refers to I have not been able to work out as it is only used to describe a small batch of J and K models. There after the CH is not used.

 The L4 engine had been well used in lighter chassis types, all being chain drive at that point in time.  They were described  by engine type and chassis weight  capacity in cwt . Hence L4 50 or L4 40.

The lighter model was the M2 at 30, 40 or 50 cwt. That two cylinder engine  became the basis of the M4 engine of WW1 fame by adding a second M2 pair of cylinders to a new crankcase housing, new crankshaft and other necessary bits. 

  The great thing is the chassis and parts Steve has located  is more complete than mine, for I don't have a gear box and have long queried as to the gearbox type. The L4 is rated at 30hp and the chain drive transmission is a different format to shaft drive needs. The M4 engine is at 40 hp  so was there a new gearbox for the M4  or upgraded from the 30 hp  shaft drive unit. 

 I have an L4 engine  however that is recorded as being from a L4 50 originally, the chassis and engine therefore from different vehicles. 

 Doug 

 

 

 

 

Engine dated leaving the factory 28/1/1914 in a J model.

pm sent

Delighted to see another early Thornycroft of the same pattern as one I have. Small diameter front wheels, track rod to the front, spring hangers to the front, raised chassis cross members  over the dif, and a five piece dif housing. It has been twenty plus years of waiting!

We have Cubs here so that would fit in nicely to give a better understanding of what should have been there. It is most probable jets have been changed over its working life. Can you inquire as to the costs in mailing to New Zealand.

Doug

Colin; Can you post some photos of the other Belsize chassis so we have something to compare with. In particular the spring hanger mounts, front of the chassis  and any other points of noticeable difference. As such this would allow people to identify any similar chassis when located. I am one who is building up a data base of such photos of rarer lorries.

 Doug  

From the Thornycroft production records it is interesting to read through and note the increasing supply of lorries to the civilian market prior to the end of the war. New vehicles during war time are listed as being supplied to essential industries along with the batches to the War Office, but not many . Over that last six months or thereabouts the ratio of vehicles available  steadily increases to the civilian market to the point of almost total civilian come August 1918.

 This is from my observation taken from the Thornycroft records. Perhaps other manufacturers were involved likewise.

Doug

The chassis section has been identified through another website as being from a Service  truck made in the USA. The dumb irons and rear spring mounts match. 

 However  there is still the question if those parts were only ever used by Service  or were they purchased in parts, available also to other assemblers of vehicles. 

Doug

20 hours ago, blastermike said:

Those rear c shaped spring hangers look like the ones found on early whites 

Thanks Mike. Can you photograph your ones to compare.

51 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

The wheels with the word FIRE cast on them, is it possible they were specifically for a fire engine?

Searched that with no luck. A small diameter wheel with 6 spokes. Also searched for foundries with the name Fire and TL. No joy. Hence the questioning now to others.

part 4 

The wheels attached to blacksmithed axle are 720mm across OD.  Cast marks are TL and the word FIRE. 

So far any research has not linked these marks to any maker.

The pattern of the flanges about and between the spokes top and bottom are similar to Commer Car but all photos seen to date show 8 spokes where as this set has only 6 spokes.

 One wheel is positioned about the wrong way on the stub axle, hence the different views. 

What has come from previous uses makes this confusing, but the individual items separately are interesting, and confusing to identify.

 Doug

The next section is a heavily blacksmithed axle similar to that used by Leyland to support the diff housing on the W type model. This is too shallow for a W type but may have suited a lighter model of the period. ( c 1909). It does not have the finish of a casting but has the holes in the ends for the axles to pass through. Missing is the sections that held the backing plates for the brakes,  narrowing the wheel track. Also the stub axles have been cut short. This could be a NZ made item or a replacement part urgently made.

Part 2 

On the off side top face of the cross member is stamped  numbers, however a weld  could be covering more. Unusual for chassis numbers to be stamped on the right, but that could be a major link for identity. 3239 is stamped on the cross member with         T 8062 on the right dumb iron. the top bar of the T has out reaching sections, so the question is could it be a symbol of an inspector.

The front rear spring mounts are C shaped.

My son Karl has been out and about again gathering up pieces. These pieces we were told of and visited about fifteen years ago. Then they disappeared to surface recently  for sale having been with another collector. A deal was done and now in storage at home. These parts were apparently used as industrial trailers, whether it was  one trailer or parts of many is the unknown factor.

 The Commer Car rear axle is clearly distinguishable and identifiable, but the other parts are for problem solving.

The chassis section has separate  riveted dumb irons attached to the front cross member.     

Quote "I believe one definition of madness is repeating an action expecting a different result. "

However, if it is a computer repeating the action can make it work ( reboot), some times.

 I know there for I'm mad!

Doug 

Over the yeas of accumulating parts, two ancient hub meters only have turned up. Both manufactured by Henry Miller of London. An interesting form as the extended hub could well be vulnerable to being damaged.

 I would assume the meter was read for distances travelled in deliveries, then used in charging out  delivery costs.

 Doug

6 hours ago, Philliphastings said:

Hello Doc and thanks for the research info.

whilst I greatly aporeciate a difinative identification, I must admit to a fair degree of dissapointment !

I will continue to recover the rest of the loose parts to save them but the urgency and excitement has waned a bit.

still a very interesting find nd a great way to get myself back into shape !

cheers

Phill

Phill,  Consider what you have located as a challenge. It may not fit into the time period you are seeking, but vehicles of this period retained many of the features of the earlier Great war types. Changes were progressive with modifications occurring , then into the mid twenties a greater array of vehicle models appear. 

 While you may not have a complete vehicle  on site, it is a start.

 A challange also in the recovery  but something to look back on latter ( or curse).

Keep going, keep looking, keep hauling those pieces home.

 Doug

The forked steering arm answers a long standing query I have, for that format is so different to the otherwise standard ball units of the time. One steering box arm here has this forked design and as such has been the point of concern for it does not follow the form as shown in parts manuals for Thornycrofts. However as the vehicle in question ( pre ww1) pre dates the manuals one has to be open to changes.

 Your postings have  provided an answer. 

I will agree to those comments from edinmass.

 The Gosling's work is an inspiration to me as well. Their attitude to collecting and storing items for decades is just part of the format. Then at some point in time another otherwise missing  part could well turn up. These projects take time!

 Doug

Was the radiator top tank a new casting? If so do you still have the pattern or was that lost in the fire too.

Do you have a photo of the back of the magneto switch?

I take it that the rest of the Thornycroft was stored elsewhere and was not involved with the fire.

 Such events should make us all aware as to how vulnerable some items are in storage. Copies or back up should be stored in a separate building, in case of fire and also out of  flood reach. 

 Doug

21 hours ago, blastermike said:

Doug,  how far have has karl got with the Leyland ? any chance of some pictures of the restoration to date ?  
ive started putting the 1924 ph 2 back together as a mechanicaly restored vehicle only, not blasting or painting any of it, ive used the sth island chassis and transfered the front half taihape ones mechanicals, got a gearbox and diff internals from steven in aus so its now a viable project look forward to seeing karls pictures and update,

mike

 

 

mike

 

 Mike,  Just like your Leyland it's very slow progress. Still looking for a suitable  RAF type radiator for it. Other work items seem to always get in the way.

 Pleasing to see your Leyland coming together.

 Doug