nz2

Many years latter and more chain drive Thornycroft parts are now at home. I was told of a chassis and rear axle having been pushed over a bank after ending it's second life as the base for a mobile saw mill. A number of visits to the site to sort out a way to retrieve this had occurred, then interruptions with covid times delayed an attempt by a few more years.

 This last Summer ( Southern Hemisphere ) I spent 4 days making an access track and slowing winching the items a distance of twenty seven meters out of the gully. Multiple hand winches, chains and strops were used  to guide past trees, stumps and most importantly, to stop it rolling further down the slope. After all the effort and  once out on to the paddock, it only took  a short time with a tractor to lift the pieces on to a trailer.

 The rear section of the chassis has been cut off beyond the rear springs, and the area about the reart springs has also been cut, but was welded back underneath the forward chassis section.

 The chassis has been stripped of any fittings riveted on. There is no sign of and Id numbers stamped about the front dumb irons. 

To add to the photo session two front axles of the type were set up under the front. Each are slightly different in the pattern of the rim to spokes area, and one is narrower in track than the other. The Thornycroft build register does mention a narrow track model. Another day we will bring out the farm trailer collected some years ago which has an axle, wheels , springs with spring hangers and  chassis mounts.  

 Parts from five different vehicles have now been collected up about New Zealand.

 Now to find a M2 engine then a gearbox and diff as a combined unit.

Doug 

Park it near a tree and leaves accumulate, with moisture then rusting develops. Trees in storms tend to fall over leading to damage even to buildings. I've had that happen too.

 Doug

That would depend upon projected use. For lots of road work they hold an element of risk. For the occasional circuit about a  show ring, those tyres could be suitable. 

Aside from placing such an axle back on a truck restoration project,  to restore a trailer like this also shows  a further use that parts were put to. It would look nice in a display with the trailer attached to a suitable vehicle. An aspect of restoration  rarely seen.

That pattern of wood work for the trailer frame would probably date it from the 1920's-to early 30's, making the axle somewhere between 5 to 15 years old when utilised. Those tyres still look usable  having no rust heave noticeable between the tyre and steel band.  

Can you give the measurement between chassis mounting points. Height, length and width over. Also flywheel diameter

Any more photos of this available? 

Is this seat as per the original specs regards height and depth, or have you altered it to suit our larger body size for these times.  Is the seat higher, as we are taller than our earlier generations and also the cab wall has to be back a little more to allow us to fit in 

 Doug 

The bus body to the left has windows  progressively smaller to the rear, suggesting it was a charabanc with raised seating to the rear. Perhaps the glass windows are a latter upgrade rather than the open sides. 

 The bus in the centre has a delightful body style with the curved sections about the window tops. 

 Doug

 That lamp design showed so little change over the decades. Even the box and labels are a worthy presentation item.

 Doug 

Where were these numbers stamped? Can you show a photo of the location.

I have found similar stamping on a gearbox and take them for the initials of the assembler or foreman  doing the work. 

 Doug

  Some years ago I came across a pair of solid rubber tyre wheels. There were no makers markings on the  spokes or other parts however the pattern was showing as being from Leyland  Last month my son Karl was in that part of the country and arranged to collect them.  Now they are home and cleaned down the mounts for the springs, brakes and spoke shape all indicated early Leyland. We can now confirm the Leyland  heritage, with help  from Rick Sutcliffe. These come from a Leyland S3. 30 from 1913 and match the Sutcliffe's Barnsley bus.

The axle housing has been gas cut at some time, so the diff section is missing along with the rest of the vehicle. Like so many of the wheels we have come across, these may have been used as a trailer in a second life.

Confirming the identity of his pair of wheels takes Karl's Leyland collection back another three years in the timeline. Hopefully one day photos of this lorry will turn up.

Is that mark above the letters RAF a crown replacing the broad arrow, or is it a polarity indicator?

Doug

Some searching has found BB4 190 as fitted to Q chassis no. 10910 leaving the factory on 30-8-1924

However the engine may not be the original as things got swapped about over a vehicles life. 

hope this helps

 Doug 

Good to see the progress.

Is there a serial number on a brass plate on the engine and also a stamped number on the left front end of the chassis. That would allow  a date of manufacture to be gained.

 Not many Q models about, I found the rear axle of one here in N.Z. and a front axle at another location. 

 The rear axle is so different to the J  having raised sections as overriders about the springs.

 Doug 

Correct it is from a Caledon lorry. I have seen parts of two in New Zealand,  with parts of another one still on the get to list. The one you have has cast bearing caps, earlier models had brass caps. 

 My research indicates only a vey few were imported into NZ. 

 There is one complete example on display in Scotland. 

 Doug 

George has given the engine number as 21625  quoting  it from the brass plate attached to the engine with the type S5.36. He also refers to the top curved corners of the firewall (scuttle) is formed with the rest of the curved section, not soldered.  That production form would indicate a latter scuttle. 

It would be convenient for a museum to use such a number to identify an object to the records and data base. It fills in the boxes  as to an ID.  As a result errors do occur in translation  later when the object is quoted as being a particular number. 

Thankyou Mike C for correcting me as to George's true work title. 

Doug

Some years ago we followed through on this Leyland trying to seek a year of manufacture. The Curator of the collection  ( George) was touring in New Zealand and took an interest in our research and collection. On his return he was unable to locate a chassis number, the engine number is for a latter engine of the 1920's. From the lorries earlier condition when it came into the collection he suspects it was an accumulation of parts to represent one of the WW1 period.  No other numbers for other parts carrying the brass id plates has been passed on. Comparing those numbers in our data base could  link closer to a year of build. 

If others have access to the collection and can record additional ID numbers it would be helpful.

Doug 

Some years ago we followed through on this Leyland trying to seek a year of manufacture. The Curator of the collection  ( George) was touring in New Zealand and took an interest in our research and collection. On his return he was unable to locate a chassis number, the engine number is for a latter engine of the 1920's. From the lorries earlier condition when it came into the collection he suspects it was an accumulation of parts to represent one of the WW1 period.  No other numbers for other parts carrying the brass id plates has been passed on. Comparing those numbers in our data base could  link closer to a year of build. 

If others have access to the collection and can record additional ID numbers it would be helpful.

Doug 

Can you measure up the overall size

Well done Mike. A nice piece of detective work in identifying the chassis from the photos.

 Doug

Thanks Dave. Look forward to seeing it.

Thanks Mammoth. I support your comments. I'm hoping someone  is able to provide some data on Commer Cars in particular.

 Doug

Referring back to the Commer Car bus, does anyone have any notes as to when wooden spokes were replaced with metal spokes. We have recovered a back axle for a chain drive Commer Car that has bearing caps the same as shown in the bus photo. The wooden spokes are substantial as built for the heavier loading rate.  

The supply of parts manufactured by other companies in this time period has puzzled me as well. Some years ago I came across a rear axle and wheels for a chain drive White truck with JAC  cast into the hub. The Catton foundry produced parts for Thornycroft, Yorkshire and others but to see the mark on an American item had me thinking of a  foundry in the USA using the same initials. 

  It would appear this is a replacement part made in England. 

 Doug

The hubs of the rear axles  have a design pattern more like a Dennis.  Also similar where some American trucks of WW1. Overall the chassis appears to have been extensively modified and strengthened, hiding features that could identify it. The front tyre appears to be 24 inch so latter 1920's. The radiator is too deep for a Thornycroft.