ted angus

Firstly,

Larry here is a link to part of the film which can still be seen on the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26818893 they are in the first few seconds of the colour part. I am convinced cam of MT and other equipment would have been in the mobilisation orders, especially as the photographing evidence is now overwhelming. Not everything was in AMOs etc in the lead to gulf wars 1 & 2 our vehicle and GSE painting instructions were all contained in signals- the relevant APs were never amended to reflect and no higher level orders were published for open distribution ie DCIs etc.

Keith here attached is a scan of the original 1941 edition .

Matchfuzee , many thanks, Mike Starmer's work is great, but new stuff is regularly uncovered- he quotes RAF blue grey as formally being the RAF colour until AMO A618/41 was published, but with the unearthing of N629/41, the first mention found to date re RAF MT Camo can be advanced by 2 months .

TED

Morning Bryan, , fingers crossed you find something : AMO N629 /41 dated 5 june 1941 stating Impressed vehicles to be camouflaged, but hire vehicles not to be; is my earliest . AMO A618 /41 dated 7 august 1941 my earliest - which details the use of KG3 etc. I rewatched a clip of the 1939 Aldergrove home movie last night and a bowser trailer and a Tilly type vehlcle were in a colour akin to KG 2 or the shade of SCC2. Good luck

TED

Hi Larry, the pic is late 1944 near Antwerp when they were trying to stop the slaughter in Antwerp caused by V weapons. I will try and see if I can find any TNA refs but I think the A series has been exhausted - I reckon N series prior to june 1941 is a starting point and Station ORBs for July to Dec 1939. TED

I played with the tones etc, the colour on the wheel hub covers is also on the tyres so is it dust- or maybe mud residue ?? There was an air diagram detailing application of camo and markings , so I don't think patterns would be optional- once a repaint was deemed necessary then current regs would normally be followed re colour pattern etc, WE need to turn the clock back or alternatively find the regs for the early years I wish I could spend a week in london my first search would be ORBs during the transition to war period, then I would look at the N series AMOs; the earliest ref I have to RAF MT camo is in an N series.

So how many colours in the attached ??

TED

Also Ted mentioned a Balloon Winch in SCC.2 Brown & Black disruptive camo, and here is one located in Kent at the time of the V1 attacks.

Larry remind me please ??

I don't think IWM colour shot is SCC 2. As its the pre MTP 46 pattern camo I think this is KG3 and dark Tarmac.

TED

Hope you are well Bryan, Here is a link to his WW" research. http://patrickbaty.co.uk/2011/10/05/wartime-camouflage-colours/

TED

Now that is a head scratcher- the colours are akin to the Light Mud & Black scheme in Italy along with a wrap around pattern; In N Africa it was practise to apply the sqn codes to MT ; I looked up AA and it doesn't fit with the given location ? TED

Many thanks Ted. I did not notice the driver of the Duxford Crash Tender (above) was a civilian. In todays world he'd say "sod this for a game of soldiers" and jack in the job. So well done to him if he stayed on in the job ready to attend aircraft crashes of which there were a few at Duxford 1939-45!

 

However regarding the buffed up Bedford surely the MT Officer would have had a quiet word with the civi driver especially as circa 1941 the Luftwaffe were still doing intruder missions over Bomber Command airfields, so camo was still important. Also if the driver did a bit of 'oily ragging' then he did a very poor job on the door, which on the upper and right hand portions shows as matt. So poorly painted perhaps?

Yes i would say in this instance the camo was applied after a quick wash down, for gulf wars 1 & 2 at least we gave stuff a quick scour with schotchbright pad before blasing the pink or light stone on 1

TED

lets jump to post war to an era when I was fully involved in RAF paint management. We used the same basic Alkyd based enamel finish coat paint on both metal and wooden parts of vehicles and ground equipment- we used the same undercoat- for vehicles irrespective of substrate-eg RAF BG and DBG,, it was Admiralty grey ( as indeed it was for traffic blue applied to GSE); However the key component was the primer, this varied according to the substrate- i e ferrous , non-ferrous or timber;each had its own primer- incorrect use of primer was in my day one of the biggest causes of repaint failure; My theory is- The Oakington shot of the Bedford is from an IWM collection taken at the station during its Stirling bomber days, the shots are posed- now most drivers in those days were still civvy staff- ( see the driver in the Duxford crash truck pic) did the Bedford driver get a rag soaked in paraffin or petrol to spruce up his cab for the pic ?- or did he do this every day before taking his truck out of the MT yard ? the ali letters RAF on the door are fully exposed.

Returning to WW2 unfortunately we still don't know the full picture re the transition to war- there is home cine film that has been online showing feverish activities at Aldergrove at the time personnel both regular and reserve were recalled pending the fateful announcement- there is a guy with a spray gun zapping everything that moves !!! this was being done with minimal surface preperation. My theory is that in each station's "war book " there was an order to procure supplies of synthetic paint to meet colour x, y or z that will be applied at a given time- look at pics of vehicles being embarked for France in Aug & sept of 39 and many are camo. I think whilst there are many fanciful stories they have their origins from years ago when people still though dark earth and khaki were the vehicle colours of WW2 ! Here is another thought in the lead up to WW2 a Home Office dept entitled the Civil Defence Camouflage Establishment in conjunction with the paint industry produced a range of colours to be used on building and facilities, various colour cards each known as shade card numbers were produced to enable local boroughs, and commercial set-ups to purchase paint- made by a supplier to the chip on the card- this range of colours by the Civil Defence Camouflage Establishment was known spec CDCE/987c - it later became BS 987c with shade card numbers becoming standard camo colours- so from that we can see that the SCCs that we are familiar with were in use for static camo pre hostilities, would it be colours from this range that stations used in initial camo application ?? predating KG3 - dark tarmac etc ??????

TED-

May I suggest the vehicle is a BEDFORD MSC 30-CWT TENDER produced 1940 and not an Austin

Yes definitely a Bedford MSC; Production of both the MS And ML started in june 1939 and was suspended on the outbreak of hostilities. ( resuming post war) This example is an MSC with the body by Spurling, later in Service life they were fited with larger tyres.

The pic was taken at Oakington, yes a strange paint job ??

TED

How about this photo Ted; is this evidence of RAF Blue still in use on an RAF Bowser in June 1940 at RAF Wattisham?

Larry I have seen this pic in black and white- I would strongly suggest it is a modern colourisation - several of these are doing the rounds by someone who seems to think the RAF remained blue grey through out

TED

Ted,

 

Thanks for your input as always on this site and other forums. Are you an MVT member? I seem to recall you had an Austin Gypsy at one time?

I used to be a member of the SMVG , I had an ex Auxiliary Fire Service Gipy, and my real pride was a Coventry Climax trailer pump which was new to the Army in november 1943. I bought to as a pile of bits and did a full nut and bolt restoration. Unfortunately my wifes ill health put paid to going to the shows then my own bad health forced me to sell both.

TED

Its a crash tender, equipment was 3 x 30 gal froth extinquishers each with a delivery hose and lance type applicator, plus a dozen or so 2 gal extin . At the outbreak of war my guess is this type of arrangement on a 6 x4 truck would be half of the RAF's crash tender establishment. The Fordson Sussex was the most common but I have others recorded with the equipment on Crossley 6 x 4, one example on a WOT1 and one on the North west frontier Waziristan in 1938 on a Crossley IGL 7.

The attached is Duxford mid 1940, by which time camo prevails- my guess KG 3 plus a dark green disruptive. In case you don't know the example you posted was taken just before hostilities commenced at RAF Northolt.

TED.

It's worth noting that any photos taken in Aden would have been in the 60s. Colour photography was pretty new then and accuracy of colours wasn't great; especially if the photos have been stored for many years before being scanned.

 

As Clive stated, the spec for the time was light stone and deep bronze green - I have little doubt that there were variations on this in the field though.

 

These photos were sent to me by a veteran that served in Aden. I don't own the copyright on them, but he did say that I could share them.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

Can anyone see the pictures ??

I can't help agreeing with Clive on this one -- I reckon this is the most interesting thread on HMVF at the moment!

I second that: I have nothing to contribute but most interested regards TED

The attached might help.During the life of the RAF Armoured Car Companies armed tenders and armed wireless tenders included , Rolls Royce, Morris, Commer Raider , Fordson.

regards TED

We ( RAF in Germany ) used charcoal . Light the charcoal in a metal tray allow to reach the white stage then its ready for use- Put this charcoal into the tray and close the box about 20 minutes before putting the food in. We mostly used the suitcase type. Better than stone cold food ! Happy days !!!

TED

Firstly Clive many thanks for these , comparing I can now say It was only the MK 1b I encountered in my time; I note the drive train set up on the MK 1b was the reverse of the MK 1 & 1a . There was a version with solid wheels but I expect it was no longer in service when your edition of the AP was published.

Ian your post one example could be an electrified MK1 ? or its precedessor with the solid whee its possible wheel stud number and or rim types could be post RAF/RN service changes ?

Attached a rare colour shot of a camouflaged MK1 in service.

Clive any of these old items are of interest to me if you ever have the time to pull them out

regards TED

Hi Clive I would be very gratefull for sight of the previous Marks; When I left the Service in 2004 no way did I ever imagine I would be corresponding on the subject of RAF ground equipment that against the enemies of age, no spares and user- abuse we managed to nurse along so as to be availible to the end user.

regards TED

Hi Ted the second one I found is a MK1b but quite different from the AM Air ministry I found 1st of all can you give me any information, dates or original photos of either of them please ?

Afraid not Ian; The problem is since leaving service all manner of things will have been done by owners to try and keep them running. However what I must say is : They were "normally" easy to start BUT if the handle shout leap off its obviously much heavier than most !! ouch- make sure the pawl/peg that allows the handle to disengage is functioning correctly and that all guards are securely in place- there are many places that are ready to snatch hands clothing etc on them- don't mean to teach anyone to suck eggs but ----- . I think an e mail to Hendon might produce the ground equipment data book leaflets for you. There is a picture of one in Adkins book on page158 it is shown with the 3 stud hub/rim arrangement. They were prone to carbs overflowing whilst running- yes the mag is directly below the carb; We had one on fire in the GSE workshop- a 1917 Belfast truss hanger - just before we got rid of the last one. We were lucky a couple of lads got stuck straight into it with BCF extinquishers.

finally a blue was introduced for Ground Equipment in the 1950s It was BSC 169 Traffic Blue - unfortunately it was removed from the BS 381c in about 1980, the yellow was BSC 356 golden yellow and the IRR matt green was BSC 285. I have found some RAF documents which allowed certain tactical units to paint ground equipment in BSC 241 matt dark green prior to 285 being universally introduced. Sorry I can't be of more help and good luck.

TED

THe AFS was one of a number of voluntary "Civil Defence" organisations set up by the civil defence act of 1948 set up in response to Soviet aggression. Had we gone to war the AFS along with the local authority brigades would have formed a reconstituted National Fire Service. (NFS)- reconstituted because we previously had an NFS from 1941 until 1948.

maybe we need to get another afs formed now !!??

TED

As the GG , Auxiliary Fire Service and UK military fire services are my pet subjects of interest I can help here. The GG was conceived (early 1950s)as part of the re-equipment programme for self contained mobile fire columns for the Auxiliary Fire Service (AFS) for use after a nuclear attack or other major disaster; The pump on the GG was by Sigmund and when built the pump was the best in the world, it was equipped with connections to enable a foam induction/proportion unit to be couple with the inlet of the pump so finished foam could be delivered through the 4 outlets. The necessary foam compound, branch pipes and inductors were carried on AFS 3 ton Bedford GP trucks ( and later some Commer) adapted to the role of Foam Tender. At the time there was also another method of producing foam on fire enginesas shown in the upper picture in the illustrations in post 9 of this thread. hose was run from a delivery and connected to a foam making branch pipe, a suction tube ran from this branch pipe into a 5 gal drum of foam. This latter method was not part of the normal method of operation for the AFS or part of its normal equipment.

However after the 4x4 GG came into service with the AFS the Army Fire Service was looking for a tender to replace their ageing Bedford QL tenders, as result orders for a modified version of the GG were placed. changes included an extra locker behind the rear nearside wheel arch, it had exactly the same pump. It carried a lot more items than the AFS GG as it had to deal with the wide range of incidents that happened on or near all the various Army units across the globe; this included extra ladders and 2 medium size foam making branch pipes which were carried on the roof. plus drums of foam carried in a locker. These Army lookalikes were initially delivered in both gloss Deep Bronze Green and Lt Stone, but later repainted signal red.

RETURNING to the original AFS GGs when we drew then from the Home Office Stores for the 77/78 strike most were given additional equipment in addition to the original AFS inventory. this included a small foam making branch pipe complete with suction tube and 2 or 4 5gal drums of foam compound. I was a crew commander on this strike. In 2002 when we again drew the GGs from store and I was still in the service at this time, the GGs were again equipped with the foam branch pipe and drums of foam. When the Army's own fleet of GG lookalikes were sold thru the auctions in the late 1970s early 1980s they were normally sold with out CES; However when the AFS / Home Office fleet was auctioned through Withams in 2005 the vast majority were sold completely equipped inc foam drums.

hope this is helpful

TED

Thanks Wally

regards TED

That Matador is an RAF GS version. RAF serial on the door

TED

Here are 2 shots of the West Moors Landie; Please note these pictures were posted on a RAF/DFS fire group on Facebook so credit for the pictures is to Steve Greenaway. These will show you everything you need to know- blue light, canvas top, markings , colour etc

regards TED