ted angus

That Matador is an RAF GS version. RAF serial on the door

TED

Here are 2 shots of the West Moors Landie; Please note these pictures were posted on a RAF/DFS fire group on Facebook so credit for the pictures is to Steve Greenaway. These will show you everything you need to know- blue light, canvas top, markings , colour etc

regards TED

I have a pic of your landie in service at West Moors would you like me to post it ??

ted

I was wondering if there are any former RAF MT or Suppliers here who might be able to help me with some questions.

 

I have copies of a number of RAF Form 524s for RAF BSA WD B40 motorcycles and although many are very straight forward to read, some entries have got me baffled. For example:

 

35 AX 18

 

Received from - BSA

On Charge to - CVD Hilton

Received from - CVD Hilton

On Charge to - Air Support Command

Received from - Air Support Command

On Charge to - RAF Germany

SOC - RAF Germany

 

This Record Card does not actually state which Station or Unit the Motorcycle was On Charge with, only the Command (other cards I have name the Stations/Units) Does anyone know if this information can be found and where?

Each Command had an Command HQ MT staff who controlled all MT matters for Stations and Units within their responsibility. They allocated vehicles to these subordinate organisations in accordance with the published establishment scales. At some point MT matters came under one joint staff, it was from then on that Stations & Units became visible on the record card either simply by name or by the unit ID code.

TED

When Bryan mentioned the Type 123a being for Y units only my olde brain didn't think of enigma - now that is a whole huge subject in its own right- I wonder if all the petty in fighting has stopped at Bletchley Park.

regards TED

OK mate; memo to boss- please reduce this man's workload !

TED

Good Morning Bryan; did you ever get a chance to delve into the N series of AMOs ? We know all published research sights AMO A618 /41 Dated 7 Aug 1941 as the formal start of camouflaging RAF MT in the UK. but I have a copy of AMO N629/41 dated 5 june 1941 which calls for cam of impressed vehicles but not to include hire vehicles.

regards TED

Thanks for sharing the pic; So many people put the RAF on the doors, but they were done away with when the roundel was introduced; once camo came in the RAF ( which should be screwed on ali letters) was painted over. Certainly once the type numbers came in the RAF should have been long gone.

mind many owners of preserved vehicles tend to slap on lots of markings.

TED

Wow what a document that is !! many thanks

TTFN TED

The census numbers or registrations are intriguing. Most RAF vehicles pre-war appear to have carried normal registrations in the Middlesex series. Probably the increase in numbers required the new RAFxxxx series. Tis numbering does not appear to have been in order of age. There are many batches of vehicles, probably numbered on delivery. However there also seems to have been some "backfilling". I have discussed the idea that numbers were issued to those already with Middlesex plates. Some vehicles post war still carried these registrations and the sale lot numbers refer to them. The Crossley FT at the museum had one. Could the presence of something already on the plate have meant that the new census number was put on the door?

Yes within the UK a local authority reg was carried, the vast majority being Middlesex, I believe via RAF Uxbridge hence Middlesex. If you look at pre 1940 pictures of British army vehicles they also carried both a civilian again Middlesex I believe and a Military number. I have seen it quoted that april 1941 was when the RAFxxxx system started but our RAF assets that went to France must have had an ID of some sort and there appears to be 1940 pictures showing a RAFxxx Identification number;

I have never seen an AMO on the subject- possibly RAFMT might know more ??

I have pictures of Balloon Sqn vehicles covering Antwerp 44/45 that were still on civvy plates indeed I don't think I have seen any Fordson Sussex with RAFxxx ident numbers ??

TED

I agree with Ted, Ian, it's a fantastic bit of kit, and a fitting tribute.

 

Ted, RVT 123A was assigned to a 15cwt fitted with one S.27 for single channel VHF D/F. It was only issued to "Y" Units

Thanks Bryan that is another gap filled. So that would almost certainly been a Bedford MW .

regards TED

Hi Mate, you are right the colour specs, they don't seem to be laid down anywhere. I think the only thing we can do is assume they were the same as the roundel colour at the time.

On a different tack: I have a fair number of RVT numbers viz function but cannot find a function for RVT 123 and cannot find even a listing for RVT 123a- is there a full list ? must have another look on the RAFM website.

Ian , I think your HACK is a very fitting tribute to Bomber Command right or wrong its great, can't wait for a full set of pictures. I was stationed at Scampton when the ceremony was held for the amalgamation of Fighter & Bomber Commands into Strike, I was only a lowly SAC at the time but was lucky enough to meet Barnes Wallis, Leonard Cheshire and Mr Bader,! a day marred by the crash of a Lightning just after take-off from its home station to join the proceedings.

TED

Were type numbers added to the nearside door of all RAF vehicles during 1943/1944 or was it simply those vehicles which were expected to cross over to the Continent following the invasion? The appropriate type number for a Heavy Utility is 2000 I think

type numbers were added to all holdings- whether all got them is another matter, it was a short lived requirement; IT should be on the FRONT passenger door; What function was an RVT 123A I cannot find it in any of the period documents ??

TED

I'm going to have to disagree with Ted slightly, but I had access to some 1945 MoS colour samples to compare with later editions of BS381C.

Cherry Red is in fact almost spot on for the red used on roundels, however the closest match I could get to the blue was 106 Royal Blue. The "original roundel" blue was slightly lighter than Royal Blue but a lot darker than Oxford Blue which is in turn darker the Roundel Blue which is the colour used post 1947ish on aircraft.

Hi Mate I did say my best shot I will go with Cherry Red which is BS 381c No 538 ( and formerly known as PO red) But Not the blue- No 106 Royal Blue is the colour of Royal Navy trucks and it very very dark-- almost black with a hint of blue- When The MAP/MoS colours were absorbed into BS 381c, No 110 Roundel Blue was an addition so I still put my money on that ??

I have a roundel sticker somewhere that the Queen lent me but I cannot lay my hands on it at the moment - or else I could have compared it with my TRIMITE colour chip folder. I think the bottom line is The colours need to match a WW2 period MAP colour chip chart and I doubt anyone on the show scene will have one in his pocket to start a bun fight with Ian L !

regards TED

Ian, the original colours for the roundel were from the MAP/MoS range and were not numbered ; The best shot I can give you is for new numbers raised in the BS 381c spec which appeared as the MAP/MoS range wound down in the 1960s. BS 381c No 110 Roundel Blue; BS 381c 539 Currant Red; but as I say these are just my best shots; No font specified plain letters/numbers 5 inches high . As for an RAF ident number RAF 168444 served with a bomb disposal unit in Holland/ Germany. Hope this helps

TED

I think there is a rare Mack LPSW tipper on the LHS of the bottom picture. Only 55 were made.

They came in via PEARSON'S Some cracking stuff in their book.

Tony,

 

Do you have any photos of Allen Trailers - what were they used for?

The trailers used in Tony's pictures are by HANDS 7 ton 8 wheels grouped in pairs; they were supplied with 2 towbars a standard length plus a 14 ft for use when transporting oversize loads.

According to the RAF DATA book there were 3 versions of the Tructor; ALLAN TAYLOR did the Fordson 7v and the Fordson WOT3 versions, REYNOLDS also did the Fordson WOT3; the difference between the 2 versions of the WOT3 was that Reynolds fitted a 30 gal fuel tank between the cab and body;

I have seen the Bedford OXC used as a tractor for full trailers in the aircraft transporting mode, but have never seen an Austin of any description.

TED

The one above, which is from the album I mentioned, is the desktop on my work PC!

The previous picture is, I believe, of normal OX tractors, since these were built to do the job so no need to convert them into tractors if that makes sense?

How about a Fordson 7V based Tructor, from the same source as above.

and in late 1944 it all went into reverse with aircraft being embarked at Liverpool for wars further afield ; What with all the toing and froing to and from Pearsons Liverpools streets must have been exceptionally busy in the war years .

TED

Allerton road in LIVERPOOL . BEDFORD TRUCTOR or OX ??? T CORBIN

Its an OXC , I've seen a couple of shots where 5 MT are using OXCs, I have a shot somewhere of the IXC being used on a USAAF base and the tail wheel of the oplane is mounted somewhere on the 5th wheel coupling ??

TED

The B/91 is not a particular base but B= Bomber Command 91 = 91 group - group within Bomber Command, 91 Groups role was Operational training of Bomber crews.

The RAF Identification number is RAF 1234 etc often refered to as reg or census number.

TED

Indeed I remember finding a picture of their Mack 18 ton former tank transporter. Over the years the MT companies must have carried some weird and wonderful stuff.

TED

There will always be those that swore blind they have evidence that they were blue from a black / white photo 'shade'

My guess is that the Jeeps arrived from 41 onwards in US olive drab & properly stayed in that green and had an RAF number stencilled on ? why bother painting a different shade of green ?

Once into a cam colour repaints were only carried out on a necessity basis. Certain organisations did not use the B/91 type of marking. Across the UK the RAF had regional MT Companies , They were to bear their company number as in Tony's pictures, No 5 were based in Liverpool and one of their main tasks was moving aircraft that arrived by sea from the US of A to Speke where they were assembled.

TED

The reg number or to give it its correct RAF title Identification Number did seem to move to the left door and by late war many vehicles seem to be displaying on both doors; that said looking through my picture files vehicles embarking for Normandy some QLs had it on the sump guard- some above the windscreen some on the -- I could go on , but the majority I would say are on the front; Colour yes from 1941 AMOs mirrored the Army.

pre WW2 RAF Blue grey, but photographic evidence shows most vehicles in France 1939/40 were cam as were those on aerodromes at home; The sticking block is the first AMO which gives anything is 1941, I think this date misleads due : A the photo evidence and B the cam requirement would have been in the mobilisation instructions. So we know they went cam but what colours ? I go with what the army were doing at any particular time; I have seen some home movie film in colour taken at RAF Aldergrove just before war was formally declared - everything in sight was being cam sprayed including the pilots personal cars !! I have seen some other similar film taken during the BoB and the vehicles are in a similar scheme to the aircraft parked near them which suggests KG3 and dark green.

and of course the RAF B/G came back in 1946 in time for the London victory parade.

TED

Ian, This is extracted from the regs. offside wing roundel with the B/91 above it. the roundel should be: outer dia 9 inch, middle 5.4inch, inner 1.8 inch- sorry they are in tenths but that was the ruler I used. The Command/Group code should be 5 inches high ( in white) in a plain style. Roman numerals are not to be used. NO roundel on the back, but the Command /group will be displayed on the back- should be applied between the centre line and left side as viewed.

I have never found the size for RAF 1234 etc but it should be white displayed front and rear . But I would guess the same size as those used on civillian number plates ??

The application of the aluminium letters RAF on the doors or vehicle sides was ceased when the roundel was introduced.

hope this helps

TED