ted angus

Steve, many thanks, Well that blew my theory out of the water. fancy Edinburgh/Dundee area down to Plymouth then up to Kinross for auction . I checked 42 and it seems they too have done several Artic warfare stints.

thanks again for your help

regards TED

Thanks for sharing Wally regards

TED

Can anyone help please and tell me if UIN N10104A is 42 or 45 Commando RM ; My son recently bought a series 3 Lightweight the record card shows 105 AD Regt which was Edinburgh / Dundee TA unit, then 42 CDO RM , then sold Fife and Kinross auction ; 42 CDO are Plymouth based 45 are Arbroath Nr Dundee- I am wondering if a clerk made an error ; The vehicle has the Artic heater etc 45 are the Artic unit ?? hence I would like to find out who is the above UIN

thanks

TED

Dave , it would take that long to get from Ashchurch to 431 MU. I would guess into a container then from Marchwood to Antwerp docks, then either directly to 431 or via Monchengladbach or another freight hub. and in between was Christmas bank holidays !!

TED

 

However, I have to say that I'm very surprised that on a forum like this that the chronology of the introduction of the different green painting schemes for British Army vehicles was not already clearly established and well known.

 

 

Maybe the whole post WW2 paint scene could be a good winter project for you.

I was involved closely with paint for the last 20 years of my 39 year RAF career - in terms of green we were just half a pace behind the army ; Often in conversation and even some official publications words to describe paints are wrongly used; although DRAB was used in the title of some colours, the word Drab was often wrongly used instead of the descriptor Matt. Matt being a reflection level (matt, semi -matt, eggshell, satin, semi- gloss, gloss, hi gloss, v hi gloss).

We started the widespread use of Matt Green in jan 1970, among the first users were 2 of our Germany stations. this was an Alkyd based paint to BS 381c colour tint 285. Through the 1970s the tone-down programme was expanded across the RAF, with paint with IRR properties coming into use in the mid 1970s. By March 1978 all users were to apply IRR Matt Green again to BSC 285. I left in 2003 and this colour ( BSC 285 ) was still in use then for tactical vehicles.

Tracing the timeline is difficult, instructions on the application of paints was promulgated by various means- signal, formal letter, Defence Council Instructions, Command Routine Orders, Air Publication amendment lists, EMERS etc etc i am sure we weren't alone and the Army sufferred in a similar way..

Dick Taylors books are great but in some instances I do not agree with his timelines- eg I have copies of pictures of REs vehicles in Gloss DBG in 1953.this predates his quote. The term NATO green is again misleading , although officially used , it (BSC 285 in UK ) does not match the equivalent used by several NATO countries.

Finally, during the late 1970s and 1980s I frequently visited the BAOR vehicle disposal site at Ayrshire Bks, the different shades of green visible were unbelievable, some as light as a pea- green ; the result of years of standing outside, with bad paint application in the first instance. hope this gives an insight into the complex world of military painting.

TED

Thanks for that, brushing spraying roller, undecided yet. When he is back in UK I will pass all thios good info to him then no doubt we will have a brew and a pow wow !

regards TED

Thanks lads I will pass on your thoughts

regards TED

My son has just invested in a Series 3 Landy Lightweight as a restoration project; its bodywork is pretty good but the paint work needs taking down to the metal. Its many years since my last project and all mine have been steel bodies etc. BIG question can anyone recommend a primer for Aluminium that will be good for the Landie and a good finish product; I think I have convinced him to go for a satin finish - my effort to get him to do gloss deep bronze green have failed !

regards

TED

Firstly, yes they continued for some years to get reg numbers from blocks reserved for Ministries. However instead of whole blocks being allocated, blocks were later shared between Ministries.

Re Duty Done- you will note from the introduction that the databases are a continuation of those first published in The Green Machine (GM) GM set out to record the vehicles used mainly by the Home Office but also including the vehicles of other Ministries, that were procured for the purpose of Civil Defence ie CD AFS Food flying squads police mobile columns etc.

However, When Barry Holliss and I set out to continue building on the GM database we found from the Ruddington sales records that many registration blocks were later being shared by 2 or more ministries.( Some of which you have highlighted ) As we had access to the records we decided to expand the databases beyond vehicles procured for the functions of the Civil Defence act 1949. Hence the inclusion of registrations borne by vehicles at such establishments as Farnborough, Boscombe,Purshore etc ( e.g. the massive strategic reserve fleet held by the MPBW in the ***FUW block which was shared with the Home Office.) . Whilst such inclusion does not give a comprehensive list of these it does provide a starting point for those interested in fleet databases of non CD involved Ministries. Pictures of Boscombe vehicles are few and far between, it might be worth looking at old Pathe news films of such things as the TSR 2 flying at Boscombe and the Farnborough Airshows to see examples of vehicles used . What was the reg number of your LR

regards TED

sunday name- E.B. Angus BEM co- author "Duty Done".

The hangars look like Middle Wallop's, and I'm not sure the hangars and fire station are in the right relative positions for Boscombe Down.

Exactly my thought attached is a slightly later shot taken at MW for comparison;

MW was an RAF station in WW2 the original fire station was a 2 bay standard expansion build positioned to the right of the tower when viewed FROM airside. Post WW2 it was replaced by a 3 bay, double depth building to the left of the tower, that build is now replaced by a new station on the same site.

No never MoS - however they too had open days and airshows and in my collection I have a picture of the emergency serviced posed pre event including AAC , RAF RN, local authority, an appliance from either Boscombe or Farnborough ( can't read the reg, and 2 from the USAF.

Boscombe now have a new central fire station adjacent to the hardened shelter site, so I don't know what has happened to the station near the main entrance I will contact some of my fellow fire cabbages to see if they have a picture

TED

The DM registered DP2 was Middle wallop's, the MK5 crash tender and the ACRT are both from RAF Andover; The guy's description of the tenders that belonged to Boscombe are spot on but this picture is I believe actually ACC Middle Wallop - in addition in the background is the rear of a Green Goddess the AFS/HO ones were all back in storage by 1971 but the Army still had a large number of their lookalikes in service as domestic tenders and Middle Wallop had one . I have a similar view taken some years later- ??????????????????????? will have to do some more digging

TED

Boscombe Down, Farnborough and a host of other research sites like FVRDE were MoS sites until 1959 when the MoS was wound up. These sites used civilian registrations for their own vehicles. After the MoS was wound up, as far as I can tell, new vehicles on those sites got military registrations - certainly I have seen a 1971 photo of fire tenders at Boscombe and they were all military plated (AA, AF and DM plates). I wonder if those with civilian registrations were either disposed of (seems unlikely for special vehicles like airfield fire tenders), or continued with civilian plates, or went back onto military plates. Presumably photos taken in the 60s could answer this - if any exist - maybe of fire tenders as they get photographed a lot on open days.

 

My suspicion is that they continued on civvy plates, as there is a surviving Land Rover delivered new to Boscombe Down in 1958, which appears to have carried the same UXMnn civilian registration from new right up 1984 when in civilian hands. But that could have been disposed of in 1959, so pretty inconclusive.

Steve, the demise of the MoS led to a mass of re-organisation, Some establishments went to the 3 functional armed forces ministries, i.e, the Admiralty, the WD or the Air Ministry; Some went directly to the Army , RN or RAF. Some vehicles were reregistered with military plates in these circumstances.

However Others passed to newly formed Ministries and this was the case at Boscombe Down, Farnborough and its outstations and the Pershore/Malvern establishments. This was 1959 from MoS to the Min of Aviation. 1967 Ministry of Technology. 1970 Ministry of Aviation Supply and in 1971 the MoD (PE), throughout they continued on the UXM PGK etc plates but as vehicles bearing these former MoS reg blocks were replaced, CC registrations were used. On occasions such as Air shows, Military crash tenders and other vehicles provided support to the host airfield's fleet.

Be interested to see your 1971 photo especially the DM as there were only the 3 Army Fire service DP2s with DM reg numbers and photos are few and far between.

TEd

For a mobile radar unit?

They have 2 of those trailers, they are for transporting a BIG container handling machine I will try and find out a name for it !!!

TED

edit;;; see attached it might not be this exact model but its very similar !

It would have been removed to accommodate the stock of Becks -

I should have noted the picture I posted was Italy , I don't have any evidence for 2ATAF

Regards TED

Hi Lads the RAF Regt did use Dingo; Post WW1 the policing of Palestine , Transjordan and Iraq became an RAF responsibility. In January 1922 6 Armoured Car Companies were formed with RR Arm Cars to form the ground element of an Air - Ground RAF force. These were No 1 - 6 ACC. No 3 -6 subsequently disbanded in 1925 and 1 & 2 ACC continued to serve over that region until 1948 when they were absorbed into the RAF Regt.

In that region they used RR arm cars, ( some later remounted in Cairo onto Fordson chassis), Humber LRC, Humber Arm Car Mk 1 & 1V, Crossley arm car, Otter LRC and in small numbers Staghound, Foxhound, AEC , Daimler and Marmom -H Arm Cars.

Totally separately the fledgling RAF Regt were equipped with wheeled AFVs for aerodrome defence in the UK and in Italy. These duties soon expanded beyond aerodrome defence and they operated into Greece and several other countries. Of course 2TAF had a large RAF Regt element which served with distinction post D Day in France through to the Elbe.

Whilst their most numerous kit was the Humber LRC, they also used the Morris and Otter LRCs plus other types in smaller numbers. I have at least one picture in my collection of a Dingo in service which I will endeavour to post here. The Vickers Light Tank is contained in the RAF data book but I cannot find out who used it ?

Find attached picture which is IWM copyright. Note 2866 was a Rifle sqn not an armoured car sqn, so the Dingo would have been their recce vehicle- I think

TED

Dave Firstly, whilst it may be imprest in the Army it was always Identity in the RAF. Each Station, unit or sub unit would have an identifying code; An example could be Leuchers would have a UIN but 26 Sqn RAF regt which was base ON Leuchars would have a code of its own. It was merely an accounting device and I can understand why ALienFM tells us it was Impress in the Army. I will dig in my boxes of rubbish and see if I can locate a list of sorts. I did try and assemble one when I was collating fleet data .

TED

copied a previous post by AlienFM

Re: Vehicle History...

Thanks Wally the old Mk6 crash tenders; Just on one page a real mix of vehicles and we had a proper RAF back then.

regards TED

Ruddington sale june 1983 the disposal of the fv 12002 antars was under way there were several in this sale

Hi Wally, I have been watching from afar- hopefully now back with you. Interesting all the RL in this sale are listed as 7 ton ???

regards TED

ROBIN, Many thanks for sharing this info. The Austin Monitors are K3 so I am sure they will be Comms bodies equiped for Monitor duties.

TED

Hi Steve, I am E B Angus although most people know me be my weekday name of TED;

Duty Done was published in 2007, most sales were by mail directly from me plus of course it was availible through the FBS. I sent out 2 updates by snail mail to my customers and also to a number of FBS customers who subsequently registered an interest with me. The building on the original Green Machine data base and the accompanying research took up many hours a day over 3 years; However, Duty Done was lost when I suffered from the dreaded PC failure, my new pc was a different system and at the time I was forced to change my e mail address as Freeserve could no longer offer me a service as internet provider in this area; although I had back up copies on CD which I was able to backload onto my new machine, some 5 years later I still haven't fully rectified the problems with things like pagnification so that couple with health issues I am resigned to the fact DD will never be re-release, but I always do my best to pass info to those that contact me. The problem with 463 viz 436 BGF is now reflected and corrected in the database. Dave and I have been in contact.

regards TED

Obviously an aircrew hack so I reckon they couldn't find a groundcrew slave to palm the job onto !!!!!!!!!!?????????????

TED

Larry have a look at my post ( message 9) from yesterday morning

TED

Trevor it will take a while to put together such a list but bear with me;

Larry, The lads on the Jeep look, clean, tidy- well as tidy as fighter aircrew ever are, none are carrying their personal weapons and they look relaxed - or at least that is the impression the picture gives me. Most post D Day shots seem to show pilots carrying their personal weapons; I have all 4 vols of the 2TAF book will have a trawl and see what it throws up, in case I loose my bet will you take a post dated cheque ? LOL

back to the sofa

TTFN TED

Firstly re TYPE number- have a re-read of my previous - the type number indicates a function - I merely sighted 1300 being a 3 tonner as an example- all crash/ foam tenders were 1301, Domestic tenders had a different type number.

Right the disc on the front of the jeep containing the 1-- compare the colour of the disc with the white in the adjacent roundel; the disc containing the 1 is slightly darker I will bet a day's pension it is yellow and is the bridge class plate.

Re 127 AF, from mid 1943 til D Day the operational squadrons that were to form the 2 TAF operational groups and wings had to learn to operate from bare bones landing strips in a totally tactical situation. Concrete & tarmac were swapped for PSP etc, barrack blocks and huts were swapped for tents, workshop buildings were swapped for various types of support vehicles. In the early planning stages it was deemed that WINGS would be the organisational unit that would be totally mobile and self sufficient in the tactical situation once they landed post D Day. Each wing was formed by assembling its allocated Flying Sqns with their servicing echelons and Wing support elements such as MT , Stores Fire Medics, anti gas etc etc on a nominated aerodrome; For 127 it was Tangmere. During the work up period the wings were known as Airfields- hence 127 was known as 127 Airfield hence 127 AF.

So I am positive the jeep picture was taken at 127 AF Tangmere pre D Day.