N.O.S.
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Posts posted by N.O.S.
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I have a lead into Thetford Grammar School, to the history teacher who picks a local person (e.g. old pupil) each year to research as a project. They had a Time Team dig a while back. I will sound him out over the next few days with no commitment.
The problem with the family is we do not have a good 'base camp'. If the family died out in New Buckenham, or those remaining moved away, our target could be in a big area - all we have to go on is that our soldier enrolled at Thetford. Anyone any idea how widespread enrollment points were at that time? Could have covered a lot of villages :dunno:
Found a view of the WW1 memorial outside a church in Beugny.
Only other interesting fact I've discovered is that a Zeppelin Staaken V.v13/16 crashed at Beugny on the night of 15/16th Sep 1918. What an awsome sight for those in the trenches.......
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Time for a brew up and regroup!
Main Objective:
Went from wondering what one might do with a stone to -
1) Decide what to do with the stone!
To do this, we needed to know where he fell, and whether there might be a suitable location for the stone.
Secondary Objectives:
2) Evidence of place of death of soldier
3) Evidence of existing relatives (if any)
4) Understand the circumstances of the war leading up to the soldier's death
In doing this we have a built up a significant amount of interesting information on the campaign, which really helps to put this soldier's sacrifice into context.
Family information is lacking, we don't appear to have a hold on this yet. I for one am no genealogist, I find it difficult to get a grasp on the tools available.
How far do we / should we go with this family search? (possible media help?)
Other Objectives:
5) Seek publicity to sustain/develop awareness of WW1 and significance of Armistice Day
6) Educate ourselves and others in the process!
At present this is all on a members-only thread, the information coming out including pictures, maps is astonishing, and I for one am finding it extremely educational - all the info is out there, but without a tangible grip (which is what Jackson is giving me) it is only for those with a real interest already. Perhaps our soldier could give others a grasp on the reality of WW1?
Shortlist of possible Locations considered so far:
a) Battle area in France (not permitted within Commonwealth Cemetery)
b) In care of family (unknown)
c) Local (to soldier's home) Churchyard
d) Regimental museum (no space!)
e) War Graves Commission Store (in basement of Chelsea Hospital)
Of the above,
if (e) then it is safe but, without awareness, it becomes just a stone.
if © then again safe, but the story is lost unless the church allows a plaque or something to accompany it.
(b) is not yet an option, seems very unlikely that we'll find a close enough link.
(d) does not seem possible, much as they would like it they are desperate for space - we could perhaps press the Regimental Association?
This leaves (a), subject to finding a spot acceptable to the local community.
Any other ideas for resting place?
In terms of objective 5, Publicity -
This could become a great tale, weaving into an overview of WW1, the tale of a soldier's memorial, a forum-based group of interested people, a bit of WW1 mechanisation (Tim's trucks, and Bovington tank museum exhibits could add some wonderful interest here). Be it TV documentary, magazine article, or basis for a book.
It could be just a modest article in a local paper, it might be strong enough for a national to run with.
If it went national in some way then the Forum and its members can be involved, but they become unfairly of less interest if just a local story.
:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: Meantime just keep on coming with those fantastic pictures, maps, information and anything else which places this soldier within the context of our freedom.
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Our curator also offered to would look for a photogaph of Jackson, a half-decent chance she reckons, but again next week.
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Sorry guys, I put the extracts from the War Diary for the Raid in which he died (attack and taking of Beugny, 1918) first, as a file attachment to my posting.
Next came the Orders for the Raid 1917 in which he was injured, finally the extract from War Diary for this raid.
I realised the file attachment was causing problems, so I re-wrote it on the posting as a modification, so if you go back to it all should be clear.
I do not know if there is anything in the Orders record held at Regiment museum for the Beugny attack, I will find out, but curator is unavailable until mid next week.
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There is a website which provides a cd of trench maps but that costs shillings!
Suppose its my fault this started - I don't know what I'm looking at when it comes to trench maps, but if you can get hold of a cd, I'll glady fund it. My problem is time at present.
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Here is the extract from War Diary covering the Raid of Feb 1917.
The entry in bold shows our man being wounded.
Date/Hour
17th - 21st (Feb 1917)
In trenches in the FERME DU BOIS Section. The thaw set in during this tour after the very hard frosts making the trenches in a bad state. Trench Mortars were active during this tour, especially in cutting the enemy's wire.
21st
Relieved by 1st Battalion Cheshire Regt. and withdrew to billets at SENECHAL FARM and KINGS ROAD.
21st - 25th
In billets. Company Training continued throughout the Rest. 'B' Coy. practised for raid during the next tour of trenches on a marked out course.
25th
Relieved 1st Cheshires in the FERME DU BOIS Sector 16th Royal Warwicks on the right and the Kensingtons on our left.
26th 11.pm
The Battalion raiding parties commenced to leave our trenches and worked out gradually to the point of assembly in "No Mans' Land".
27th 12.5am
The enemy fired two parachute very lights into the middle of the party who, although lying absolutely flat, could be easily seen and must have been seen by the enemy. The raiding party heard a German Sentry rush back immediately down a Communications Trench and they then heard Germans rushing up to the front line as quick as they could. O.C. Raid, Capt. E.C. KELLY, considered that in spite of this when the barrage opened on their front line that it would give the party time to get up and into the enemy's trenches before it lifted while the enemy still had their heads down.
12.15am
The barrage opened on the enemy's lines. Our men dashed forward and reached the enemy parapat as the barrage lifted.
12.18am
The barrage lifted and our men reached the parapat. The enemy were prepared for them and opened heavy rifle and machine gun fire at once. They also bombed our men as they came up preventing them from entering the enemy trenches, although they managed to throw some bombs into the enemy trenches and cause them some casualties.
12.20am
Lt. G.E. INGLE, who was with the telephone in "No Mans' Land", realising the situation, telephoned back for the artillery barrage to be brought back again on to the front line. At the same time I gave the order forthe party to withdraw as best they could.
The party withdrew gradually, leaving 2 men killed on the enemy's parapat. The whole party returned to our lines and the wounded were all brought in by 4.am.
The enemy barrage our front line and communication trenches the whole time from 12.22am till 3.am
The raid failed owing to the parties being spotted 15 minutes before Zero hour, hence giving the Germans time to be prepared and the raid in consequence not being a surprise.
Orders for the raid are attached.
Our casualties - Other Ranks - 2 killed, 1 wounded and missing, 18 wounded (2 remained at duty).
8.am
Relieved half Co. of 16th Royal Warwicks on the right, thus extending our front from 1800 yds to 2100 yds.
27th
Relieved in trenches by the "Rangers", (12th London Regiment). Relief completed by 3.15pm.
I'm a bit lost for words now........... this took place at a time when Great War Truck's jalopies, narrow gauge supply railways and the odd tank were the only mechanised help available, even they must have been a rare sight to the men in the trenches.
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The first one (GMC) was straight out of EXCHANGE & MART - now there's an oldie! Still the odd one or two in there last time I looked. Not everyone reads Horse & Hound or has 'that thar interweb fone' you know :-)
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Hi Clive :wave:
Please, please, please don't post a pic of the squirt pig. I am appealing to your good nature here. If Hardyferret sees it I will have hours of tantrums and threats of him screaming till he makes himself sick ........... :shake: all because I won't agree to him buying another pig - especially a squirting one.
My peacefull existence is in your hands. :redfaced: Yours pleadingly Mrs HF
Put up a pic of the squirt pig, or you'll get all your track cleats filed off first visit to the Clubhouse ! :banana: :banana: :banana: Enjoy!
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N.O.S. I can only download a bit of that diary, any chance of emailing the attachment to me, or posting it in full?
Rick - I've modified posting and put the full text on post, rather than use attached file. If you wish, I will scan the original handwritten documents and email or post to you.
Tony
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This is the extract from ORDERS Book covering the Raid in with Private Jackson is wounded in Feb 1917.
1/NORFOLK REGIMENT
Orders for Raid by 'B' Coy, North of the FERME DU BOIS, on the night of the 26th/27th inst (Feb 1917)
Reference Map - RICHEBOURG. 36.5W3, 1/10,000
Point of entry - 5.16a.85/10
There will be 3 main parties -
(a) The Blocking Party at 5.16a.85/05
(b) The main Raiding Party, will move northwards to the trench leading to the dug-outs, at 5.16a.90/30
© The Mopping-Up Party, which will move from the point of entry northwards, along the main firing line to 5.16a.70/3
There will also be a small party under an Officer at the point of entry for dealing with prisoners.
All parties will enter at the same point of entry in the above orders.
There will be a covering party of 1 Lewis Gun and team and 4 bombers at 5.16a.70/05
All parties will rendezvous 15 minutes before Zero Hour along the (?) track between5.16a.70/05 and 5.16a.50/35. The parties will be formed up along the (?) track from North to South in the following order- ©, (b) and (a)
2/Lt G.E.INGLE will be at the advanced rendezvous with a telephone at 5.16a.70/05
The retirement will be done as soon as the objective has been obtained and the damage to the dug-outs completed.
Parties will retire by the same route as they entered.
Each party, as it leaves the point of entry, will leave a blocking party in the trenches in which they have been working, about 15 yds fom the point of entry. As soon as everyone except the 3 blocking parties are out, the blocking parties will then withdraw under orders of the Officer at the point of entry.
There will be one man with each party who will be entirely responsible for the collection of prisoners, papers and identifications, etc. from German dead. Prisoners will be immediately disarmed and passed back to the officer at the point of entry.
All identifications and papers will be removed before the raid, and all ranks must be warned that, if captured, they are only to give their number, name and Regiment.
The parties will consist as under -
(a) The Blocking party - 6 Bayonet men, 6 Bombers and CSM ROSE.
(b) The main Raiding Party - Will be divided into3 parties - (d), (e) and (f)
(d) and (e) parties will separate at 5.16a.90/22.
(d) party will work along NORA TRENCH to the point 5.16a.00/22.
(e) party will work northwards from 5.16a.90/22 to the point 5.16a.90/30
(f) party will be the party for collecting prisoners and damaging dug-outs.
(d) and (e) parties will each consist of 4 bombers and 4 Bayonet men, each under an NCO (all under Capt.E.C.KELLY)
(f) party will consist of 1 NCO, 4 RE's with moble charges, and 4 Bayonet men to collect prisoners and identificaions from dug-outs.
© The 'Mopping - up' party will consistof 2/Lt.J.H.CHAPMAN, 6 bombers and 6 bayonet men
2/L.B.F.H.BUTTERFIELD and 6 men will be at the point of entry for seeing to the collection of prisoners.
There will be a party of 1 Sgt and 5 men who will clear the gap in the wire during the raid so as to enable the parties to get out as quickly as possible.
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Here is the extract from 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment War Diary covering the attack on Beugny 02 Sep 1918 in which our soldier died. The entry in bold must be where he fell.
Place: Favreuil Area
Date/Hour
1.9.18
Battalion reorganised and rested.
8pm
Battalion moved to assembly positions, South of railway, between FREMICOURT & BEUGNY prior to attack on BEUGNY village and objective East of village. Shelling light, casualties nil.
2.9.18
5.15am
Battalion attacked - objective gained, casualties slight.
11am
Shelling increased. Lieut.E.O.R. BURRY wounded.
1.0pm
Enemy doubled back and penetrated line between the Battalion and the NEW ZEALANDERS on the right thereby forcing our two forward companies to withdraw slightly. Shelling and machine gun fire very intensive. Casualties heavy. 2Lt.J.G. Molloy killed.
4.0pm
New line established with the assistance of two companies of the BEDFORDS and held throughout the night.
3.9.18
5.15am
Brigade again attacked, two companies of the Battalion following up about 500yds behind the attacking line to assist with consolidation and mopping up. Casualties nil.
10.0am
Battalion then followed up the attack as far as DELSAUX FARM South of Beugny village.
1.0pm
Battalion moved forward again as far as Western edge of LEBUCQUIERE village and halted.
8.0pm
Battalion withdrew to Billets West of LEBUCQUIERE village for the night.
Maj. G.deGREY, DSO, rejoined (???) personnel at SOUASTRE.
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Spot on mate spot on :-D If you decide to take the stone back would you consider some of us accompanying you?
First thing is - WE need to decide what to do with it.
There's no rush, it would take some time to establish a possible resting place for it in colaboration with les Francais.
Then how to get it there? You guys seem to do a few trips, so it might be feasible to tie it in with something else during the year? In which case perhaps I could accompany you? :-)
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The Jackson family seem to have a fairly large prescence in the parish up to the end of what I can see in about 1901. There are 3 other Jacksons on a war memorial,I assume must be in the village.
You guys, I thought you might beat me to it!!
I called in at New Buckenham on way home, according to the village shopkeeper the only memorial is a plaque on the church wall listing those from parish who died 1914-18, I checked and no Jacksons :dunno:
The visit to the Regimental Museum in Norwich was most productive. Thanks to a very kind curator, who made time for us, we now have the following information (though some is now merely confirmation of your efforts!):
Jackson, Bernard Ivo Pte 29539
Born New Buckenham, enrolled Thetford
1st Battalion, Norfolk Regiment
His name does appear on the War Memorial in Thetford Market Place.
His record shows him as being wounded 27 Feb 1917, sick 2nd West General Hospital Manchester 14 Mar 1917, and killed in action 02 Sep 1918.
I managed to come away with copies of some fascinating documents, namely -
1) Orders for Raid by B Co. north of the Ferme du Bois, on night of 26/27th Feb 1917, in which our man was wounded - it was a raiding party on enemy position - highly detailed, very small print covering one side of foolscap!
2) War Diary for above Raid
3) War Diary for attack on Beugny 02 Sep 1918, in which objetive was gained but resulted in the death of Private Jackson.
Interestingly his name is incorrectly shown in the casualty book as B J Jackson!
I will try to get these transcribed onto here by end of night - please bear with me, as I have to fit this around other duties this evening. I'll do 3) first.
The one thing we do not have as yet is the TRENCH MAP. Our curator will search at her first opportunity - probably mid next week - but she advised that trench maps are not common in the Regiment archive at Norwich. She thinks there would be a better chance of locating a copy at the National Archive in London.
Just had a call from auctioneer - the vendor had been asked to clear out the long - closed yard of a builder and undertaker at Attleborough - name of Edwards. The family has apparently died out. So the memorial stone could have come from anywhere as part of a building job.
The relief here is that "Tootie" quite probably has no connecion with our man, other than sharing yard space for some time!
Only option now for his family being Parish records?
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This is an astonishing link provided by Rick - don't know if it is repeated across the country, but (and unfortunately the Thetford names are amongst the very few yet to be transcribed :-( ) people have gone to the trouble to provide full service and death details for all names on each war memorial.
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OK, there is a slight complcation which I have not yet mentioned -
Along with the memorial stone in the same lot came a very simple little gravestone, to TOOTIE, who died aged 16 in 1915.
Now this could be the family dog, could have been the faithful companion of our soldier, could be totally unconnected.
Should they be kept together? Oh well, how do we resolve this one? (tootie - vehicle horn - HMVF? - I'm not making this up, honest!)
If this involves delving into family history and stuff, it is probably not appropriate to make it public on the forum site, so there is a need for us to be sensitive here.
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well at the minute ive found he took part in the amiens offensive and the closest ive got is queant which is 4.9 miles from the cemetary but if you can get the trench map 57c nw4 then will be able to pinpoint exactly where the 15th brigade were
Unbelievable! This will help for visit to museum today, though at this rate by the time I report back you will already have got there!
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I thought the brake fluid in the GMC smelt a bit like.......... :whistle:
Welcome, Joe OT-90!
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I'll need some notice for a fitting appointment due to distance involved :whistle:
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OK, but why would a cooler plug be an advantage for highway work? Why not use a hot plug for it's anti fouling properties for all applications?
dieseljockey
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I'm having a job keeping up to speed on all this. :cofee:
The Thetford connection from war memorial ties in with the auction location which was Diss. How did you manage that? Or am I just 'website illiterate'?
I will call at the Regiment museum with info for them tomorrow, might even be able to come away with the information we need, and should hopefully hear back from auctioneer.
The thought those 3 uncles, and the chap's father lost as well, shows what a devastating effect WW1 must have had on a lot of families.
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Googled his father (quiet day in the office!), Henry Charles Jackson and mother, Emma. Henry came from a large family of 12 other brothers and sisters. Part of a family tree on t'internet, couldnt find out much more about him.
For his father and brothers (his uncles), 3 out of 4 of which died the last weeks of the war, I managed to trace more or less from village to village their movements.
Rick - can you give me a lead here? I've been messing about on google and odd sites for ages and just cannot get on the trail. Alternatively a village / parish?
Cheers, Tony
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Shoot this down in flames if you want to, but this is panning out to be an interesting story of a memorial stone, found by someone, researched by someone else and conveyed to France by another someone (in the back of a dodge? :whistle:) - and the common link is - you got it, HMVF.
Could yet someone else lend Jack some clean-ish clothes for a national newspaper photoshoot? :-D
Now where's that explosive "instant paint" cannister?
Militant Men on a Mission.
in MV Chatter
Posted
This trip is an inspiration! :-)
You didn't do any worse than me with a Toyota Hilux and I.Williams trailer freighted up with large s/h earthmover tyres out of Cardiff, embarrasing thing was my long 5mph stint was somewhere between Cardiff and Bristol on the M4 :oops: would never do that again!