Old Bill

10 hours ago, andypugh said:

So, that's your one and Ben's two? (There are several fire engines, of course) 

I haven't counted Ben's. Did the list before he did the lorries! Needs a revision.

I have a list for my personal interest. However, need to be very careful about publishing things because of security issues. Also, making a list could be your life's work if not careful!

Sorry. Bit of a diversion!

Steve

Bit of a mixture really. I started off collecting only lorries of all conditions. However, one of these Thornys is the bus. Also, of the three Dennis, one is ours, one has had the engine replaced for film work and the third is in a shed, pretty well untouched. The owner very kindly let us measure up his water pump to copy. These are all vehicles in the UK. Tim has a much better idea of what is around the world.

Steve 

On 4/20/2020 at 5:14 PM, Doc said:

Has anyone attempted to collate this for say AEC, Albion, Dennis, Leyland, Thornycroft apart from the minor marques.

Andy

Hi Andy.

I have just had a quick look through my list of pre-1920 lorries in UK and have come up with:

AEC 6

Albion 6

Dennis 3

Leyland 7

Thornycroft 14

This is by no means definitive as it has been created be me writing them down when I see them or know of them. I think I will have to sit down with Tim to try to put together a more comprehensive list. Come to think of it, your brother's Leyland isn't on there so it is time it got an update! The numbers are not big, however.

Steve  

Glad it found a good home!

Steve 

Don't worry about being off topic. We all love old machinery of all sorts!

I worked at Barfords years ago and we had a D3 plinthed in the yard. I was always pleased to see it when I walked past. I do hope it found a good home.

Great progress with the Karrier. You make us look positively pedestrian!

Steve 

Hi Doc.

Thanks for taking so much trouble with that. The visualisation really helps. There is more than one way of skinning cat , certainly! The difficulty there is drawing the pattern with the side flanges and drain boss so, as you say, I would need cores at the sides but I wouldn't need a core for the big cavity in the centre as that would draw from the top half of the mould.

I keep looking at the casting to see if there are any clues as to the split lines but they are few. Mind you, the corrosion doesn't help! I really must sketch it out and see how it looks in the various combinations.

Thanks again!

Steve 

Yes, I could do a lost-wax casting and I could fabricate it either from stock or smaller castings. Call me bloody-minded but it wasn't done that way and I really want to understand it and, if I can, replicate it. That is the challenge! This is definitely a one-piece casting although in that pic, it does look like a weld. It isn't but just the end of the machining where the boss was turned to size.

If I split the pattern along the centre-line of the boss and then make the mould with the coupling flanges downwards, then the main core of the box will be supported by the sand coming through the holes in the flange centres. I can put a big core print at the ends of the bosses to support the cylindrical core. To accommodate the angle brackets, I am thinking of putting a big core print in that area and then doing them with cores. The crescent shape is still not clear in my head and I could live without it if necessary although I don't want to do that. I will do some sketching and see how it looks.

Watch this space!

Steve 

The radiator looked pretty good when we first got it but when taken apart, it was found to be fairly seriously corroded inside. Dad reckoned he could patch it up and so spent a lot of time lining it with a layer of Devcon sandwiched beneath pieces of brass. He then painted the whole interior with some epoxy water-proofing paint recommended for the interior of boat hulls. This has kept us going for eight years but it has always leaked a bit and more recently showed signs of further corrosion. I did another patch job on the outside but I could see that the bolting flange was no longer attached to the front face for its entire length. It is time we made some new tanks.

I have therefore bitten the bullet and taken it off the lorry. My new shed has provision for a chain block. I knew it would come in useful!

Under the top tank, one layer of plating had come adrift. That wasn't helping the circulation!

The epoxy paint had failed.

Corrosion is rampant. In the middle, you can see the back of the patch that I put on the outside!

The bottom tank had gone porous.

There was an inch of debris in the bottom.

The top tank is now sitting on the bench whilst I work out how the pattern should look. Those flanges around the back are thoroughly inconvenient!

The bottom tank should be easier but still has its own challenges.

I am thinking of a split line, horizontal in this picture. It will need two cores to make the cavities. The round one I can accommodate by leaving a long core print to support a cylindrical piece of sand. The crescent one, I am still puzzling over.

This is the googly on this casting, a flange on the back face.

I bet the original pattern maker cursed when he saw this on the drawing!

A good dose of looking at needed for these. I stop and ponder each time I walk past. They are going to test my pattern making skills to the limit!

Steve 

Thanks Gordon. Yes, I have ordered new balls. That was the easy bit!

Steve 

Yes, this is exactly how they were in service. They are 'full complement' with no more than a few thou between them so there is nowhere really for them to go .

Steve 

Thank you chaps for all fo your thoughts and comments regarding the thrust race, particularly Marcel for your very kind offer. A trip to Belgium has a lot of appeal at the moment! Your suggestion, Marcel, of the tool and cutter grinder gave me the idea of using my Dremel grinder in the toolpost, later confirmed by Hedd (Brass Cleaner), so this is what I tried this morning:

The grinding disc has a larger radius than the groove so I set it below centre line on an angle. The groove shape seems to be uncritical as it certainly doesn't match the balls.

With the lathe on bottom speed (25rpm) and a very ginger feed of no more than half a thou every ten revs or so, I had a go.

The result was actually very pleasing.

Before and after.

I did two lower races and one upper one as we already have a good one.

All very satisfying and some original parts salvaged which is always good news. I have ordered some new balls to go with them.

Than you everyone for all of your ideas!

Steve 

I 'm really pleased that you are enjoying it all. This lock down is a real pain although Dad is definitely making the most of it! I think the target will be to hang the front end as soon as we are all allowed back together. To that end, Dad has everything under control except for the king pin thrust races which are with me. We have four bearings in stock from which we need two.

They have a spherical top which sits in the top of the axle end.

There are thirteen 5/8" diameter balls in each. Those that we have could do at a pinch but they are a bit ratty so I will order up some replacements.

The main problem is that that either through use or corrosion, the races are dimpled. This will make the steering very lumpy as to rotate, the whole weight of the front end must lift.

Not quite sure what to do about these. I have had a look on line to see if the bearings are still available but have not found anything like yet. They actually look like turned parts so I thought I would try tickling them up with a carbide tool. The results were predictable.....

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to do next? I could just leave them but it rather goes against the grain!

Steve     

That is a good satisfying job and I love the punch! It is so nice to have just the tool for the job!

Steve 

Hi Doc.

This is Dianes website: https://www.loco-nameplates.co.uk/

Her email is at the bottom and is the address that I use. She is delightful to deal with and her work is wonderful. She has done a good number of plates for our lorries over the years and runs a Sentinel steam waggon. Drop her a line!

Steve 

I have had a nice day today. Started off by getting the front wheels out of the car. Along with the springs, they have been doing a good job of keeping the back end down. They just need a bit of attention from the painting department and then they will be ready to fit.

We have been looking at the back springs and, whilst they are not too bad, there is some rust build-up between the leaves. We decided to dismantle them to clean out the gaps. Now, taking springs apart can be quite exciting, not to say hazardous due to the stored energy in the curved leaves. This needs to be released gently and under control so I started the day by making up some clamps using some box section and some studding. The screwed rod allows the tension in the springs to be released slowly and under control.

Fitting the clamps to the spring.

Next step was to release the centre bolt and then slowly back off the nuts on the studs.

This went without a hitch although the leaves did need some encouragement to slide over the centre bolt.

Then they just lifted off.

There are a lot of bits in a spring!

The inter-leaf rust.

Soon removed with a wire brush although we both ended up black as the ace of spades!

A bit of rod through the centre hole to keep the leaves in line and then it was just a case of tightening up the clamps.

Fit the cleaned-up centre bolt back in the hole.

Release the clamps and job done. It only remains to re-make the clips before the return to the paint shop.

The second rear spring is also coming apart ready for a clean-up tomorrow.

Steve 🙂

Dad is pushing on with the paintwork which is proving tricky as we normally use the space under and around the chassis to store 'stuff'. It is currently all over the place and generally 'in the way'!

In the meantime, I went to see Jones' Springs in Wednesbury yesterday to pick up the front springs which they have sorted out for us for us. They have done a really nice job replacing a number of leaves, a couple of new bushes and resetting them to be a matched pair. I got personal service, a genuine interest in what they are for and they took plastic on collection so really nice people to deal with. Here is the result:

Just going outside to trim the centre bolts and get the first coat of primer on them.

Steve  🙂

3 hours ago, Foden7536 said:

Good evening Steve,

Oh dear, I didn’t realise this forum was frequented by “Sentinel Men” -. Have you a Sentinel yourself? (Sorry, haven’t worked out who is who with their alias’s!

David

Hi David.

Sadly, I don't have one but just crew from time to time. You can just seen it in the picture next to our Thornycroft on the last page of our Thorny thread.

Steve  

Hi Tomo.

Yes, we had the same problem!

However, I made a pattern for the pivot point and also for the brake lever. John has them both at the moment so they are available for you to use. The pivot point casting, I tapped in the back rather than putting the bolts right through as they wouldn't have left room for the nut. Quality of my pattern making I am afraid!

All went together OK in the end but a real pain to assemble with the seat on!

Have fun!

Steve 

Hi David.

Great to have you here! Speaking as a Sentinel man, I am sure we can find some relative merits to discuss!

Regarding photo captions, once you have inserted the pics in your post, just click the cursor next to the photo and it will allow you to write the text at that point, just like 'Word'.

Looking forward to following the progress.

Steve 

Nice find! They will come back OK with a bit of persistence. Looking forward to following the story!

Steve  🙂

On 2/20/2020 at 11:13 PM, radiomike7 said:

I hadn't noticed the under frame truss with a turnbuckle before, does it have a certain preload?

That is a good question. I would guess at not much more than 'nipped up'. These do have a little tension on them but are seized solid and, as the frame is straight and won't carry any significant load, then we shall leave them alone.

Steve  🙂

Now, that is a neat job! Makes my efforts with a Stanley knife look seriously rough!

You are making some serious progress with this job. You'll be out on the road in no time.

Steve 

There are some good lessons there. I had heard that the tyres were wired on but could never fathom how they closed the joint. Thanks Chaps!

I haven't been leaving Dad to do everything although it does feel like it some times. Two of the things we need are some new pistons as the originals had been broken by a previous restorer so I have made up the pattern for them. It started off as usual with a pile of MDF blanks, glued into a block.

Using the press as a convenient clamp.

The main plug was just a simple turning job in Father's Colchester. I must treat him to a dust extractor!

That was straightforward enough.

On to the core box which I built up in the same way. However, this time the block is splitacross the diameter of the hole and then held together with long wood screws. before boring.

The profile was machined inside using the dials to get the position and depth right. Very easy to make a mess of!

Both blanks were then taken home and I set about making a strong point to allow the piston plug to be drawn from the sand. it is just a tapped boss silver soldered to a plate which is then screwed to the top of the plug.

The core box split quite nicely and I fitted the screw holes with some alignment pegs before making the gudgeon pin bosses.

These were fitted along with a rib across the crown and some bosses to take the gudgeon pin locking screws.

Filler all round, dressed back with the dremel. A messy unsatisfying job as I can never get really nice smooth fillets. I must try to get hold of some pattern makers wax. I have never used it but understand that it can be smoothed with one's finger which must be an easier process.

First coat of paint and a bit of remedial filler where I hadn't done it very well.

A second coat of Bondaprime, polished back with wire wool and we are ready for a trip to the foundry!

Hopefully, there won't be quite so many patterns with this lorry!

Steve  

What a nice find. Filing them out would have been a bit of a chore!

Steve 

This photo is on the wall in our production office at work so I had to scrounge a copy! 99% sure it is a Karrier.

Steve