draganm

the Luchs is a beautiful replica, but I saw a number of approx $100K to build it.

Anyone know what the Stridsvagen sold for?

I bet a lot less than the cost of buying the road wheels, suspension components, drive and idler sprockets, and final drive separately, then cutting, machining, and welding up a chassis to fit it all.

You can nickel and dime yourself to death buying individual pieces

http://relicsww2.com/index.php?route=product/product&search=marder&product_id=739

When it comes to some, its the only solution. The luck is getting in touch between the time when the old guy who will not sell anything dies and the time his relations call in the scrappy to take it all away!

Seriously though, it's extremely hard to get rare items under these circumstances. Same applies to old cars, the family that inherits the stuff either scraps or donates the vehicle and the time window to get in the middle of this is what, a few weeks?

So if you are building a replica, why spend the extra money and use original parts. Its always only going to be a replica and it would be far, far, cheaper to make the components yourself. Unless of course in the fullness of time things get forgotten and its sold for big money as an original.

 

 

Jon

that's a good question. I think people obviously want an original vehicle, and sometimes that is just not possible, so the next best thing is to get as close as possible to the original. If you can have original Marder Armor and gun on a 1944 chassis, that's as close as you can get I think to a real one.

Or, wait 50 years for an original to be pulled out of a swamp right after you win the lottery :-D

we contacted the rickmansworth landowner who didn't seem very approachable but maybe we caught him on a bad day.

hopefully the winery owner is a good chap

not too many left though, and 2 have already been made into " Swedish Marders"

http://www.massimocorner.com/afv/Surviving_Pansarbandvagn_Pbv_301.pdf

well considering there's literally dozens of pics of this vehicle as a Swedish APC, then showing the upper half being cut-off, then a Fiat diesel engine being installed, it seems very unlikely that an attempt will be made to pass it off as an original Marder

any maybe it's not the right thing to do to cut it up , but there did not appear to be any serious collectors of late 50's Armored personnel carriers popping up to buy it on Milweb

If they can make the top half from authentic German Marder parts, armor, gun, etc. then I think it will at least be more interesting than a 1958 APC that had already been cut-up and re-welded from something else prior.

just my opinion.

The chassis is from a Swedish Pansarbandvagn 301, sold on Milweb earlier this year.

however, according to the owner

Stridsvagn 41 built in 1944 (Czech TNHP built under license by Scania in Sweden) then converted to Pansarvagn 301 in 1958. So as close as dammit you will get...

We studied the chassis in more detail and noticed a definitive weld line between the chassis and upper-body.... fusion of 38t and Swedish personal carrier..

were the Pansarbandvagns a mix of new chassis and converted Strids?

you guys are really lucky,

http://tankmuseum.org/year-news/bovnews53673

The US Army Ordnance Training and Heritage Center have confirmed that they will be loaning The Tank Museum their Elefant (based on the rejected Porsche Tiger chassis) for the exhibition and the Museum remains hopeful that it will be joined by a Sturmtiger from overseas.

 

The new exhibition, which will be unveiled in April 2017, is aimed at enthusiasts of German armour and will feature new and previously unseen crew interviews and testimonies and account from those who faced them in action.

The development and technology employed in these huge machines along with historical detail about the battles in which they were fought will aim to assess the extent to which these tanks deserve their mighty reputations.

 

Veteran accounts will include reminiscences from those who were present at the capture of Tiger 131 and the story of Gunner Joe Ekins of the Northamptonshire Yeomanry, who in August 1944, knocked out three Tigers in his Sherman Firefly within a matter of hours. It is believed that one of these Tiger tanks was crewed by famed tank ace Michael Wittmann.

 

 

In an interview conducted before his death in 2012, Gunner Ekins recalled; “We were in the orchard, looking out over a couple of thousand yards of flat, plain land. Suddenly there were three Tigers coming across our front. We waited until they were about 800 yards. My commander said ‘target the rear one’ and I fired two shots at him and hit him. We pulled out again and fired at the second tank, hit him with the first shot and it went up in an explosion so, obviously we hit the ammunition or something. By this time the first tank of the three had realised what was going on and he started looking for cover, so it turned a bit towards us, we fired two shots at him and I hit him as well”.

 

Of course, the German perspective will also be presented. At TANKFEST 2015, former Tiger 1 driver Wilhelm Fischer was interviewed by Museum staff and research is being carried out to identify further personal accounts.

 

With veteran stories, supporting artefacts, unseen imagery and the stories unique to the vehicles on display, the exhibition will showcase the Museum’s collection of what were arguably the most feared and famous tanks of the Second World War.

 

 

 

Draganm,

Don't believe all you read! There is a vast difference between regular troops on Home Defence duties, 24 hours a day, and Home Guard volunteers who did their duties after work and were usually men who were past conscription age and many would have had previous army service, and experience. My father was in a HG unit and their weapons instructor had served in the Boer War and Boxer Rebellion and had been an instructor at the School of Musketry (as it was called in the early 20th century). They did on occasions train with regular units, but definitely did not have tanks.

They are credited with shooting down numerous Luftwaffe aircraft and the V-1 flying bombs which followed them in the summer of 1944. The Home Guard's first official kill was shot down on Tyneside in 1943. The Home Guard in Northern Ireland also took part in gun battles with the IRA.^[30]

 

At any rate, might be more interesting than a plaque that reads "here's something we dug up" :-D

Not a novel idea though, looks like "dads army" did finally get one in 2005 , small white rock with inscriptions

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/4142414.stm

well the same guy who recently finished the Stug 3 ausf. D North Africa issue Stug, Mr Phillips, is now doing a Marder. Based on a 1944 chassis that was used by the swedes as a APC (or some-such), it's looking to wind up yet another awesome re-build and a good deal of it will be original. Gun shield/fighting compartment armor and now front armor plate with driver cupola, are ground dug originals. Hopefully more original parts pop up.

https://www.facebook.com/Marder-3M-1618628128359892/?ref=py_c

well searching the net does not help. All I can find about the Covenanter is "used to train front line troops and equip home-guard units

what am i missing? :???

Nuffield Mechanizations and Aero produced the A16 design heavy cruiser tank in 1938, but the British wanted a lighter, less expensive cruiser. The Covenanter was designed to fill this need. Nuffield helped with the design of the turret for this tank but declined to take part in production, preferring to field their own tank using the same turret- the Crusader. The Crusader is often viewed as a successor to the Covenanter but was in fact developed simultaneously. This misapprehension is in part because the Covenanter was relegated to the role of a training tank and used to equip Home Guard units while the Crusader went into front-line service, mainly in Africa.

:rofl::rofl:

I must have gotten the terminology wrong, ?

The tank equipped various British armoured divisions in the home defence and training roles. It never left the British Isles as poor engine cooling caused versions MkI-MkIII to be declared unfit for use overseas service especially in hot climates. This was rectified in the MkIV after many corrective actions were undertaken but by February 1944, it was declared obsolete. More than 1,700 of the type were built.

I assumed Home guard referred to all troops and volunteers stationed at home to defend against possible German invasion early 40's. Were these not Home-guard I take it? Was home guard similar to Volksstrum and did not apply to regular army stationed at home?

This article was not clear , it seemed to lump them all together

http://ranmorewarmemorial.info/the-denbies-home-guard/

These guys identified as "Denbies home guard" who served where the Covenanters are buried sure look like real soldiers?

appreciate any knowledge that would clarify, I'm just a Yankee (sort of)

thanks.

The trouble with the Covenantor from a collect-ability point of view is surely that it never 'did' anything, it was only ever a training machine, like Cavaliers.

a few did lay bridges after D-day landings right?

and

rare as heck, only 3 complete chassis known to survive , and only 1 of this is a gun tank. This dig would almost double the number of known examples.

i'd bet a pound to a pinch of salt the static one would eventually be snapped up by another enthusiast (one dark night)

well I can see where restoring one to even static condition would be a huge job, all the rust removal, weather sealing the turret and chassis, etc. If it's missing a turret then the difficulty goes way up.

On the bright side, you did mention a spare engine, tranny, final drives, etc.

Oh and one more plus, your name on the a bronze plaque attached to the monument and forever emblazoned in history.

Restored by Rick Wedlock

Patriot Extraordinaire and all around good guy

Huzzah :-D

Darn it, 40% chance of them being under vines and ...............

well lets hope the owner is an agreeable fellow,

the trick might be finding the "what's in it for the winery" angle. I read they sell-out their stock every year so might not need more advertising/news exposure?

maybe offer to restore one vehicle to static display condition and display it at the winery as a monument to the home-guard in exchange for the other one?

I dunno, just throwing ideas out,

best of luck

the key to the whole thing is permission from the vineyard and we already have someone onto that on our behalf. we will see what happens.

The vineyard is only 265 acres out of 600+ that make up the property. possibility that these are under a grape-vine are low

i know i'm an optomist and always see things as fairly straight forward so bear with me but why do we need any health and safety or insurance or any other cr@p.

1. get permission and tank location (might only take one phone call)

2. physical recce with digging equipment to find the tank and it's depth and orientation in the ground and come up with recovery plan.

3. go back with digger and whatever else was deemed necessary then dig it out and load it up

4. make good the groundworks and head off into the sunset

 

doesn't need to be any more complicated than that

and there's this. People who make wine are happy, guys who run scrap yards in Germany are grouchy, so you're already better off than last time :-D

I'm pretty good at talking ot people , but I think the winery might not take me seriously if I called from mainland USA.

I can send an e-mail if you guys like, if no one else is feeling chatty?

This thread is an eye opener to what is getting dug up http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=329122&page=60

 

I just read page 60 back to 30

Ironically it seems like the availability of wartime German Armour parts is greater than the majority of wartime British machines. Put in your order an you can get a Stug final drive.....yet it took me years to locate two Loyd break drums!

Looks like the web-site is back up, which is good. My concern was a problem with local authorities (which never ends well for the relics)

looks like this site is down, anyone know what happened? There was some really rare kit for sale there, lie Tiger and Panther parts, in Latvia I believe.

He took me on a dig once, they were trying to recover the guns from a Heinkel 111 that crashed in Blackbrook,

GPR?

According that article someone had plans to dig those things up as recently as last summer. That would imply that

1) the winery knows where they are

2) someone might already have plans or a deal in place with the winery?

First step might be -call the winery and find out.

If the original diggers from last year are out of the picture, then a good deal might be to make it something that would be beneficial for the winery and help promote their products too. Like Set up a viewing stand and wine tasting event a safe distance away , that sorta thing. That would also possibly skirt the need to pay them to remove the relics.

Between the excavation and hauling the cost here will already be significant.

A call to Bovi might be in order too. They seem to have a number of extra turrets lying around. If they took the turrets off the other 2 chassis's in 1987 then this might not be worth it.

Wish I wasn't 2K miles away, an excavation sounds like fun, especially since you guys aren't digging the concrete-like hard-pan we have in the dessert southwest:cheesy:

According to the article, they were rolled down a hill and then buried, so good chance you won't have to pull them out of a pit.

In 1944, he would have probably been too old to go in the services, so best bet by now is he is pushing up daises as are the other two tanks.

if these are recovered and a missing turret or main gun is the issue, the AA version looks really good too for a possible repro fab.

All this talk of cruiser tanks and then a good article on War History Online

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/crusader-tank-flawed-unreliable-combat.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=warhistoryonline&utm_content=%5BWar+History+Online%5D+Your+Daily+Dose

it reminded me an excellent book I read in the 80's called Brazen Chariots. If anyone is looking for a good read it's a first hand account of a Stuart tank commander in north Africa . The one account that really stuck with me was his recollection of a friendly fire incident where they shot up a Crusader by accident, killing the gunner. I think it was the worst experience for the Major in charge.

This article, written last year, suggests someone is thinking about digging them up soon... also suggests they may not lie under the vines...

 

https://arcticterntalk.org/tag/canadian-tanks-buried-denbies/

Whoever it is they're keeping this little endeavor on the down-low as there's been no mention here AFAIK.

There used to be a house on the property that was requestioned by the Canadian military in world war 2. When they left they took their tanks with them except three were non-functioning and were pushed down a hill and buried. To date only one has been excavated and the other two remain buried in the fields and are marked there by two tall trees. There is a possibility that further excavations of at least one tank may be considered in the next year or two.In September 1940 the Canadian West Nova Scotia Regiment was camped at Upper Common, Netley Heath, West Horsley, on the North Downs

where a Bf110 crashed after being shot down (4th Sept.).

 

 

Pic of tall tress, Bf109 should be off to the right

I am awaiting to be told something different but I think it was 1987 not 1977.

It was probably 1987 as after a customer told me about it (I own Dorking Models in West St., Dorking) I drove my jeep up to the barn where it was being stored and took several photos of it. I will try to find them but unfortunately they are in storage at the moment. I remember the remains of the red/white/red flashes showing. I also remember the low loader carrying it off to Bovington passing up West St. under a tarpaulin - it was recognisable by the wheels.

The thought is also that the Canadians buried the tanks before they left for D-Day having used them for recovery/bridging exercises in the area of the very large anti-tank ditch dug across the River Mole valley between Box Hill and Ranmore.

Former gamekeeper and Estate bailiff, Walter Hitchcock (see Home Guard picture below), identified Its place of burial. It is now in the Army Tank Museum at Bovington.

 

It would be interesting to know why the others were reburied. Were they shot up and considered too far gone for restoration? Did anyone see them back in the day?