rewdco

Hi Sean, Your bike is in the Royal Enfield WD Models Register. If you send me an email I can send you some extra information. Regards, Jan

Nice story, but unfortunately nonsense. It’s already been debunked a long time ago. But people keep on thinking that this is Lilibeth, and very often the bike is called a BSA… Errare human est. The picture was first published in April 1942. She would have been only 16 then and not eligible for duty...not even for propaganda. Princess Elisabeth served with the ATS in 1945 only. Here are some very nice pictures showing her with the ATS. Rest in peace, queen Elisabeth.

Aliquando et insanire iucundum est. 😊

FYI, the "Wrights saddle: BSA version" and the "Terry saddle: Ariel version" have been amended.

The Mansfield saddle: Universal version: As explained before, the “Universal” saddles were introduced in late 1943, and were an attempt to standardise some of the parts and components that were used on every WD motorcycle (saddles, controls, electrics, …). But every saddle manufacturer had its own version of a "Universal" saddle... They all have one thing in common: at the nose of the saddle there were two pairs of holes. Either of these hole pairs could be used for the pivot bolt, or they could be used to fit a pair of make-specific brackets, so that the pivot hole could be placed in a specific position. At the back there were 3 pairs of holes for the rear springs. These 3 pairs of holes were made in an additional twisted steel bar for the Terry Universal and the Mansfield Universal, or in a pair of extra wide brackets for the Lycett Universal and the Brooks Universal. With these modifications in mind, the Universal saddles could be fitted to ANY make or model. The history of the Lycetts and Brooks companies is well documented on the internet, and we know that one had taken over the other. They both used similar Universal saddle frames (with slots for the hi-end elastic bands for the Lycett, and round holes for the “standard” coil mattress springs on the Brooks). Now I suspect that there must have happened something similar with Terrys and Mansfield. The Terry saddles all look very much the same, except for the Matchless Terry, which has this hooked spring collector plate, unlike all the other Terrys. However, the hooked spring collector plate is typical for the Mansfield saddles. A shameless copy or a collaboration…? I can’t find anything about these two companies on the internet, but I think both companies were somehow related to each other. Their Universal saddles looked very similar... Details: Typical Terry (!!!) construction: a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 14 long mattress springs (there are 15 springs on a Terry Universal) are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. There is a second flat steel bar back-rail, with 3 pairs of holes for the main springs. This second flat steel bar is twisted at both ends, and has a loop in the middle. By far the most noticeable feature of a Mansfield Universal is the fact that this bottom rail is attached to the inverted U shaped back rail with one single rivet on each side. The 14 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and 2” 1/2 wide. The saddle is 13” long, and is about 14” wide. It has a Rexine cover with a banana shaped stitching at the back. The bottom corners of the cover have not been rounded. The Mansfield “Universal” does not have knee pads. The cover has a Mansfield badge (war time brass, post war aluminium). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ladies and Gentlemen, We’ve come at the end of this survey. I’d love to see your comments, and if you would have any additions, please share them with us. Regards, Jan

The Mansfield saddle: Royal Enfield WD/CO version (M40): Here are two other Royal Enfields with a Mansfield saddle. These are official Works pictures of a WD/CO from contract C/13869, and a WD/CO from RAF contract C/14219. The parts catalogue for contract C/13869 mentions a Terry saddle with kneepads, but the Works Photographs clearly shows a Mansfield with kneepads. This makes me think that sometimes they simply fitted “what was available”… The RAF contract parts list shows a Mansfield Universal saddle instead of an M40. Contract C/13869: RAF contract C/14219: Unfortunately the above photographs don’t show the frame of this Mansfield saddle. But I have found pictures of a saddle which is similar in construction to the Mansfield M.43 from the previous post (WD/RE and James ML), but a little bit sturdier. And in a 1943 (approx.) VAOS document with information on the WD saddles, I found this on the Mansfield M.40 (unfortunately no illustrations): On the internet I found the pictures below. I believe that this is an M40 Mansfield saddle frame. Details (basically the same construction as the WD/RE / James ML Mansfield M.43, with a few differences): The back-rail is made from a steel bar. The 13 mattress springs are attached to the top of this back-rail. The 13 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collection plate / anchor plate with a long lip that hooks in the nose of the saddle. The nose top is flat. There are no short mattress springs at the front of this saddle. The saddle is 12 1/2” long, and is about 13" wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “Mansfield - Made in England” brass badge (aluminium badge post war). The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back. This saddle is provided with knee grips for the pillion passenger.

The Mansfield saddle: Royal Enfield WD/RE and James ML version (M43): The WD/RE pre-production test models were equipped with a lightweight Terry saddle, exact model unknown. These contract C/14775 bikes were based on the civilian Model RE40 and RB40 (Royal Baby), so I’m pretty sure that the (pre war) civilian bikes were also equipped with this Terry saddle. These Terry saddles have been explained before. But the WD/RE production models (contracts S/1945, S/6602, S/7112), together with the James ML (contracts S/1972, S/5571, S/6603) were fitted with a Mansfield M43 saddle. It is possible that the fourth James ML contract (S/7113, produced in 1944) was using a Terry Universal saddle. The Universal saddles have been explained before. Details:The back-rail is made from a steel bar. The 9 mattress springs are attached to the top of this back-rail. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted on the outside of the back-rail. The 9 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting / anchor plate with a long lip that hooks in the nose of the saddle. The side rails are bent upwards (2 kinks) towards the nose of the saddle. The nose top is flat. There are no short mattress springs at the front of this saddle. The saddle is 11” long, and is about 12” wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “Mansfield - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has no banana shaped stitching at the back. Rivet counters beware: the post war version of the Mansfield saddle has more mattress springs than the war time saddles (13 mattress springs instead of 9 according to the parts list, but I can only see 11 in the picture below). The post war saddle is also slightly taller.

The Dunlop saddle: BSA C10 version (F.89/4S.P.): According to the document below the BSA lightweights either used a Terry saddle (model S.802), or a Dunlop (model F89). The Terry has been explained previously, let’s focus on the Dunlop saddle now. BSA KC10: I have only found illustrations with the Dunlop saddle; see picture below. BSA WC10: The official works photograph of the military WC10 clearly shows a Terry S.802 saddle. But the only other war-time-WC10-picture-with-visible-saddle that I could find shows a Dunlop saddle, see picture below. Details: Typical Dunlop construction: the back-rail is made from a steel bar. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted (with one rivet) on the inside of the back-rail. A 1/4" wire frame connects the back-rail with a sheetmetal nose piece. The top of this nose piece is curved and is 2” 1/4 wide. The saddle is 11 1/2" long x 13” wide. It has a thick rubber cover and a “DUNLOP Made under Drilastic patents” brass badge.

The Dunlop saddle: Royal Enfield version (F.99/6B): We’ve seen that most of the pre-Universal saddle Royal Enfields (WD/C and WD/CO models) mostly used a Terry S.787 saddle. But the WD/C RAF contract C/12429 parts list also shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle as an alternative to the Terry. The Dunlop F.99 is a rubber saddle, riveted on a steel frame. Contemporary photographs with RAF WD/C motorcycles do confirm the use of this saddle. War time photographs also show this Dunlop F.99 saddle on some contract C/8136 (Army contract) motorcycles. It is rather strange that a Dunlop saddle was used by the Army, as in 1937 the M.E.E. had tested these Dunlops, but they found them “unsuitable for WD purposes”. Details: The back-rail is made from a steel bar. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted (with one rivet) on the inside of the back-rail. A 1/4" wire frame connects the back-rail with a sheetmetal nose piece. The top of this nose piece is curved and is 2” 1/4 wide. The saddle is 13" long, and is about 15” wide. It has a thick rubber cover and a “DUNLOP Made under Drilastic patents” brass badge. Up to the Royal Enfield WD/CO: the first WD/CO contract parts list (C/11081) shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle and a Terry S.787, similar to the WD/C RAF contract C/12429. As with the RAF WD/C, the parts list shows knee grips for the pillion passenger. Contemporary WD/C pictures never show knee grips, which is logical, as the WD/C didn’t have a pillion seat. Some contemporary WD/CO pictures from contract C/11081 show Dunlop saddles, sometimes with and sometimes without the kneepads.

Next part of this survey will be the Mansfield and the Dunlop saddles. Please give me some time... 😁

The Wrights saddle: BSA version: As mentioned before, BSA also used a Wright / Wrights saddle on the M20 (both names, with or without final "s", were used). But I found very little information on this BSA Wrights, apart from two scans from the BSA parts lists… Early parts list: The parts list above shows that there were 15 mattress springs (which are identical to the BSA Terry saddle mattress springs), and 7 nose springs. This is quite similar to the BSA Terry design. The illustration below (from a pre war Wrights catalogue) also appears to show a back end "à la Terry". Later parts list: And according to a later BSA parts list there has also been a Wright universal, which was most probably identical to the Terry and the Mansfield universal.

The Terry saddle: Triumph TRW version: The post war Triumph TRW also used a specific Terry saddle: Details: Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. Two L-shaped brackets are riveted (with 2 rivets each) on the outside of the back-rail. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is 2 1/2 Inches wide, and is rounded. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 12” long.

Post war British Army saddle covers:

James ML: James also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details. The double spot welds can clearly be seen in the picture below.

Triumph 3HW: Triumph also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details, except this page from the spare parts list. It includes the Triumph-specific mounting aids.

Norton 16H: Norton also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details, except this page from the spare parts list. It includes the Norton-specific mounting aids.

Matchless G3/L: Matchless used two Matchless-specific stepped brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the middle holes. The bottom of the main springs are bolted to a pair of Matchless-specific L-shaped brackets that were then bolted to the frame.

BSA M20: BSA used two BSA-specific straight brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted on a BSA-specific triangular plate that was bolted to the twisted crossbar, in the four outermost holes. The double rivets can clearly be seen in the pictures below.

Ariel W/NG: Ariel used two Ariel-specific stepped brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the outermost pair of holes.

Royal Enfield WD/CO: As can be seen in the parts catalogue and the picture below, Royal Enfield used an extension bracket for the front pivot, the rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the outermost pair of holes. Longer studs at the bottom of the main springs compensated for the higher saddle position, due to the extension bracket. The parts list shows a saddle with single rivet attachment of the bottom rail, so this is a Mansfield Universal (!), which will be explained later. But in this factory photograph the twin spot welds of a Terry Universal can clearly be seen, and we can just see the Terry badge as well.

The Terry saddle: Universal version (S.831): The “Universal” saddles were introduced in late 1943, and were an attempt to standardise some of the parts and components that were used on every WD motorcycle (saddles, controls, electrics, …). There was a “Universal Terry” (which was based on the Terry S.707 and S.818, both BSA Terry saddles, see later), but there was also a “Universal Lycett” (as explained previously), a “universal Brooks” (as explained previously) and a “universal Mansfield”. They all have one thing in common: at the nose of the saddle there were two pairs of holes. Either of these hole pairs could be used for the pivot bolt, or they could be used to fit a pair of make-specific brackets, so that the pivot hole could be placed in a specific position. At the back there were 3 pairs of holes for the rear springs. These 3 pairs of holes were made in an additional twisted steel bar for the Terry Universal and the Mansfield Universal, or in a pair of extra wide brackets for the Lycett Universal and the Brooks Universal. With these modifications in mind, the Universal saddles could be fitted to ANY make or model. Almost every 1944-onwards spare parts catalogue (for almost every motorcycle make) lists the following items (the scan below comes from a Royal Enfield parts list): - a Terry universal saddle (which was called the S.831), - a cover with a Terry number, - a pair of rear springs, again with a Terry number, but these springs could also be used on any Universal saddle, - a Terry Universal mattress assembly Details: Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. There is a second flat steel bar back-rail, with 3 pairs of holes for the main springs. This second flat steel bar is twisted at both ends, and has a loop in the middle. By far the most noticeable feature of a Terry Universal is the fact that this bottom rail is attached to the inverted U shaped back rail with two pairs of rivets (sometimes two pairs of spot welds). The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and 2” 1/2 wide. The saddle is 12” long, and is about 14” wide. It has a Rexine cover with a banana shaped stitching at the back. The bottom corners of the cover have not been rounded. The Terry S.831 “Universal” does not have knee pads. The cover has a Terry badge (war time brass, post war aluminium). Next are some examples of the Terry Universal as used by several motorcycle manufacturers, from late 1943 onwards:

The Terry saddle: Royal Enfield Model RE version: The WD/RE pre-production test models were equipped with a lightweight Terry saddle, exact model unknown. These contract C/14775 bikes were based on the civilian Model RE40 and RB40 (Royal Baby), so I’m pretty sure that the (pre war) civilian bikes were also equipped with this Terry saddle. But the WD/RE production models (contracts S/1945, S/6602, S/7112), together with the James ML (contracts S/1972, S/5571, S/6603) were fitted with a Mansfield M43 saddle (see later in this survey).

The Terry saddle: Royal Enfield WD/C and WD/CO version (S.787): The Royal Enfield WD/C: all contracts used the Terry S.787. The WD/C RAF contract C/12429 parts list also shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle as an alternative to the Terry S.787. The Dunlop saddles will be explained later in this survey. Compared with other Terry saddles, the S.787 has a unique feature: it has a sheetmetal nose plate which was spot welded to the nose of the saddle. This nose plate lifts the cover over the petrol tank. Details: Not so typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and wider than on all the other saddles (3” 5/16), with a spot welded sheetmetal nose plate. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 12” 1/2 long, and is about 14” 3/4 wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back. Up to the Royal Enfield WD/CO: the first WD/CO contract parts list (C/11081) shows a Terry S.787 and a Dunlop F.99 saddle, similar to the WD/C RAF contract C/12429. As with the RAF WD/C, the parts list shows knee grips for the pillion passenger. Contemporary WD/C pictures didn’t show the use of these knee grips, which is logical, as the WD/C didn’t have a pillion seat. Some contemporary WD/CO pictures from contract C/11081 show Dunlop saddles with and without the kneepads. But most C/11081 pictures clearly show the Terry S.787, sometimes with, but more often without kneepads: The next WD/CO contracts are sister contracts C/13869 (3000 bikes with Albion gearbox), and C/13870 (3000 bikes with Burman gearbox). And although the works photographs of the C/13869 bike shows a Mansfield saddle (probably an M40, see later in this survey), according to the parts lists, both sister contracts used the Terry S.787. Again with knee grips. Then we have the RAF contract C/14219. Although the official works photograph for this RAF contract C/14219 clearly shows a Mansfield (probably an M40, see later in this survey), according to the parts lists, this was the first Royal Enfield contract to use the Terry model S.831 “Universal” saddle (see further in this survey).

The Terry saddle: Velocette version: For as far as I could find out, Velocette never used a Terry saddle on their WD bikes.

The Terry saddle: Ariel version (S.677 & S.827): For 1940, the WNG list quotes the Lycette aero spring. From 41 onward it shows either Lycette or Terry and for 44 it's the Universal. Unfortunately this is all the information that I have… According to the information below we have 15 mattress springs, and no nose springs. So it could also have a central spring collecting plate which hooks in the frame nose, "à la Matchless S.821".