wdbikemad

Jason, when able, are you in a position to post a few of your quality detailed images of your interesting "interim" (1952 pattern) middle parka that is the second pattern but with the attached hood ? Cheers ! :-D

Seen a few mods like this to the Middle Parka.......nearly all having a modified collar attached, often using the lower portion of the detachable hood.........no doubt for an officer !:-D Other mods seen included the rear "tail" being reduced to a horizontal hem...........

Thought Canadian at first but their Broad Arrow is circled by a C is it not?

Correct Harry.........no, I am pretty sure these are British and RAF.......

Orders issued in 1943 did away with the Unit of Div sign for motorcycles, thereafter they were only supposed to display the coloured, numbered square on both sides of the tank.......

As with everything though, these orders were widely interpreted or just plain ignored......:-D

Certainly a value as so early (1951)......Korean era in fact.........are these ex-RAF I wonder on account of the commonly-encountered "Stores Ref" designation....? Naval kit had "Vocabulary Number", and Army kit a multitude of references......

Brit-made no doubt, but I note the possibility of US-style "herringbone" fabric and the word "Kerosine"...very "US".......

Too many ex-WD motorcycles aren't always restored in the original factory colours......the brown shade (SCC No.2) appeared around 1942 and was in common use by 1943 for many motorcycles........it replaced khaki-green No.3 Gas-Proof, probably because the former colour required certain components in the mix (chromate ?) that were in short supply........however, stocks continued to be used whilst they existed........during April 1944 a new shade of olive drab was introduced to replace the brown, but it was probably near the end of the war before this new shade became fairly commonplace.........I have several NOS James ML parts, the bike introduced during 1943, and the vast majority are brown-finished, with a few items in dated packing (1944/45) in olive drab green.........

A very nice restoration ! It seems that the first contract of 3HW's made in the new factory at Meriden during 1942 did not feature pannier or pillion kit, retained rubber fittings (tank knee-grip rubbers, footrest rubbers, grips, etc), had the alloy chain cases and oil-pump cover, non-cutaway tank (for the filter hose), the smaller rear carrier, etc.........some of these items were carried over from 3SW stocks........

Most subsequent production went over to economy measures, and many bikes in the later contracts were actually supplied/delivered without tyres fitted according to the MoS ledgers, most probably as heading for long-term storage that included "Littlewoods" premises and the Mars chocolate factory at Slough !!............

I think you're right about the exhaust Ron, although I have a feeling that possibly BSA and Matchless also used similar "painted" systems later in the war ? Was it paint or another heat-resistant finish ?

What an excellent and unusual item,I never even knew they existed.I have an og one,1960 pattern,and even that I found by chance.

Ah, that's the point though....they didn't exist ! At least not in production anyway, though it would seem a few were made for trials.......it could be argued that the trial DPM version is the only "1960 Pattern" hood made (it's written on the label) but all the green versions for wear with both the 1950s issue and green 1960 Pattern smock were all 50s pattern, not 60 pattern.......in fact, I've never seen any green hoods dated from the 1960s at all, or undated but with a late-60s NSN mark which would indicate this time frame........same with the green combat cap, all seem to be 1950s manufacture....

Hi, yes I second that! I would love to see more photos of the 3HW in action

andy

You will be lucky ! Photos of the 3HW "in action" in WW2 are comparatively rare........the few photos showing them in use reveal a few serving in France after D-Day, several taken in Italy, and again several taken in the Middle and Far East......

Although manufactured from roughly mid-1942 onward, it seems that the first front-line area that the 3HW appeared in was with certain units during the Italian campaign from late-1943............then north-west Europe after D-Day and both the Middle and Far East between 1944 and 1945............compared with the other makes, they were sadly never common and a great many were sent far away from the UK (and left in-situ) or supplied to other Nations (eg- Greece, India, etc) after WW2 from surplus UK stocks held in depots.........

When the 3HW entered production, UK supply of motorcycles was already meeting and in some cases exceeding demand, and large quantities of 3HW's likely remained stored in depots following delivery from the factory...........

A nice bike to own, and a good performer too........:-)

Looking at the comparison between the Korean-pattern and 68 pattern hood, the latter is clearly larger in cut.....

The instructions within the green Korean-era hoods mention that it was for wear over the balaclava helmet and combat cap.........was this the same for the 68 hood ? Or was it intended for wear over the MK4 tin hat too ? I doubt it, as that was one voluminous lid...........BUT, a 68 pattern hood was often cut and used as a cammo cover for the tin hat....so could in theory fit...?

You know my thoughts Steve...superb! And you know my next question.......has he (your contact) gotten back to you yet?

Three found Jason, I've got one, the other two I'm waiting for.........one is yours........bear with me.........

(For Jason !! )... The hood that never was ! Trial DPM hood, "SCRDE" marked and dated 1968, made from DPM sateen to the 1950s pattern............the lack of any NSN, SCRDE, and the "No4" mark all suggest a trial item.............in great condition too........

The green 1960 pattern combat suit was basically a modification of the original Korean-era garments, but the hood remained unaltered, 1960 pattern garments continuing to use the earlier hood.........

When DPM was finally approved for service around 1969, the first garments made were to the existing 1960 pattern, thought to be during early 1970, but production by James Smith and Cookson's of the DPM garments were of the smock and trousers only, the hood not being made in DPM nor listed in the NSN catalogue........

The reason ? The 1960 pattern DPM smock and trousers were very much a stop-gap only and made between 1970 and 1971, from March 1971 the DPM 1968 pattern garments entering service along with a redesigned hood and combat cap............it is probable that DPM was approved for service before the revised 1968 pattern had finished trials, hence the stop-gap 1960 DPM garments..........

The hood shown was probably made in-house by SCRDE to show/compliment the 60 pattern smock and trousers in DPM, but due to the anticipated arrival of the newer 1968 pattern was just simply not adopted for production......

Compare the 1950s design with the (larger) 1968 hood.......both of these are (large) Size 2's.........the later design being far simpler and much less complicated in construction........

I would agree. In the thread link I attached I think MHillyard stated he paid £20 for his. Iirc I did not pay much more than that for my example and yours was £35. If you think about the rarity of these items and the age it surprises me that they do not attract a much higher price. That, as many have stated, though is a function of market perception. These days market places like eBay seem to have gone insane. 59 Patt Denison smocks, which are relatively common, are going for rediculous money - decent size and condition may well see in excess of £200. It is a similar situation for 60 patt gear - I recall a post 64 size 9 60 Patt smock selling for c.£350....:nut: (- although I have noticed that the 60 Patt market has cooled somewhat over the past couple of months). Whereas much rarer 50's pattern gear (incl the ROC gear in this thread) are less well known, and desirable, and thus attract a much lower price.

Well stated Jason, and I agree with every word........

Thats in rather amazing condition, thanks for showing it. Great price indeed. Not rude at all, a opinion is always welcome. I paid £35 for it, which seems pretty reasonable knowing 60 pattern ones have been going for a lot recently.

You got a bargain.......I'd have paid almost double that........:-D

Yes, mine has the disadvantage of having several extra wires thrown in for good measure, I have the workshop manual so I'll rewire it all with modern cabling, but perhaps try and track down some original looking sleeving.

No sleeving necessary....loose cables only ! Seller on Ebay has a good repro of the original rubber-covered wiring cable........worth investing in.......:-D

I paid a very reasonable £80 plus postage this year for this NEW matched set of decent Size 8 60 pattern smock and trousers, as good as the day they left the QM stores............but smocks alone in this size and condition have achieved almost £200 on Fleabay............a case of interest, supply and demand methinks.......:-D (I got a bargain)

Thanks for the link and information, makes for a interesting read. I'm glad I picked it up on a bit of a whim, I thought it probably likely people here had been watching it. I really like the attached hood feature, I'm going to ask the seller if theres any history/story behind where it came from I think. I find all this old stuff quite fascinating, incidentally Scotch Harry do you think I paid to much?

Not being rude, but what did you pay ?

Dear Wdbikemad, thanks for your reply; it would seem then that I have a modified mid WW2 OR shirt if it has 'plastic' type buttons, rather than metal, and buttonholes to take a detachable collar. The green colour of mine is just like the first photo I posted and not brown like yours or the shirts I have seen on Living History guys. Presumably they were made in slight colour variations or was there a shift away from brown at some stage? BTW mine has a small loop sown in to the shirt behind the collar, presumably so that it may be hung up but I'm not sure if this was a post-war mod when in use as a nightshirt!

The loop was also not featured on issue O/R shirts...........

I strongly suspect that yours is an officers private-purchase or WD-supplied officers pattern....dating from WW2 up to approximately 1953............

The other possibility is Commonwealth manufacture...?

OR's issue shirts do vary in colour, but are mostly a brown-shade of wool flannel....this varies from a rich brown, through light-tan, through to a khaki-green but always more "brown" in shade than "green"............officer issues on the other hand often vary more toward the greener shades back to light "tan" ...! :-D

It is basically THE original "Korean" issue British Army combat smock from 1951 to 1952 made in cotton (windproof) gabardine but an Air Ministry contract that differed in the specification by requiring the hood to be attached (rather than detachable on the Army item).........in all other respects, including the trousers, it was made to the 1951 specs.........

Aside from the attached hood, the Army issue changed over to cotton sateen for the smock, hood, trousers and parka during mid-1952 as gabardine was found to be less durable under extended field conditions.............but it seems that the ROC issue (apart from the hood) was manufactured to the original 1951 specs.......(less wear in an armchair....lol)

Another variation is the sizing of "Small", "Medium" and "Large", replacing the numbered Army sizing of No's 1 to 9........:-D

Quite a rare variation in my humble opinion........

LOOM?? I think that is a bit of an over statement Ha Ha! From memory there is one cable from the mag to the headlamp and one from the headlamp to the rear lamp. Ron

Lol !!! Correct as ever me old mate :-D

It IS the WW2 O/R pattern.......these were the same pullover design, made from khaki-drab wool-flannel............but O/R's issue did not carry any label (they were size and maker-marked inside the collar band with ink-stamps but often undated) and were usually fitted with small grey "gunmetal" buttons (though some later issues around 1943-44 did feature plastic/veg-fibre buttons).........also, the issue-type didn't have buttonholes on the collar band............BUT (!) some earlier shirts were subsequently modified by the addition of buttonholes when attachable collars were permitted to wear a tie when off duty (from 1944 onward)..........

Many officers shirts of the era were of a similar style to the OR's type, but had attachable collars as ties were generally always worn........this style (for officers) persisted into the early 1950's when the collar-attached type became common, along with pockets, open front and epaulettes...........

The wartime collarless OR flannel shirt was itself modified around 1944 by the addition of a permanently-attached collar, labels NOW being featured and buttons generally all fibre/plastic rather than metal...........

Shown are an original (rare 1940 dated) collarless OR shirt (new) and the 1944 issue with the now attached collar and plastic buttons............

Dohhhhhhh:blush:

Irrelevant if they can't find 'em.........

I've just been on Silvermans website and it says they have nylon poncho rolls-

 

http://www.silvermans.co.uk/tabid/62/MILITARY/WEBBING/58+PATTERN+PONCHO+ROLL/0/SKU/4-171-14190-1698/Default.aspx

Last time I called in there they couldn't find 'em.....!........

Yep, I think ATC cadet gliding wings I think......and attached to a 1950s/early 60s MK1 or 2 cold weather flying jacket......

Here is the seat mount now I've removed whatever it was that was covering the seat!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80048[/ATTACH]

 

And a just about legible frame number:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80049[/ATTACH]

That little leather strap with buckle just visible above the toolbox is a nice original part.......listed in the parts book to secure the wiring and cables.......worth preserving if you can.......I think the early civvy production, even if cancelled WD stock, did revert to the civvy frame even though some other parts remained "WD" (such as the foot-rests, headlight, kickstarter, etc)......other immediate changes included the carburetter reverting to the civvy pattern rather than the larger WD Villiers type........note that the WD carb assemblies are interchangeable between the James ML and Flea, BUT they do have a different needle between the models though.....