wdbikemad

I would agree...early 1980s...........Newey studs still in use then, no FFD pocket and cotton- zip-tape..............plus JS & Co still going back then, but not for much longer..........:-(

Royal Navy......early 1950s extreme cold weather deck-issue.........

Thanks for the pics. Are there any known examples of the pack out there in collectorland? Presumably there were also nylon utility straps?

Are these not shown here on the pack ? i haven't a standard 58 pack here to check, sorry......

[ATTACH=CONFIG]89399[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]89398[/ATTACH]

 

Here's the elusive nylon poncho roll or cape-carrier...........

And perhaps hardest of all to find, the nylon 58 belt......this one is mint...........now only seeking the water bottle pouch and the large pack.........regarding the former, given that this kit was made around 1977, the bottle pouch should have the buckle fastener although I have seen some with the earlier twist-lock type fastening reminiscent of the earlier pattern canvas pouch.............and as for the latter, though little seen, the large pack in nylon was produced......

I've decided to dip my toes in the world of nylon trials 1958 Pattern webbing and I attach a couple of pics of progress so far. (Yes, I know that's an ordinary belt) This was provoked by Silvermans - briefly - accidentaly listing the ammo pouches for £15 a pair rather than £15 each on eBay. Having snaffled these, I then ordered the yoke and kidney pouches off their website for £15 each. As is well known, Silvermans have a 'Never Knowingly Underpriced' sales strategy and since then the yokes have been raised to £20 and the kidney pouches to £30:

 

https://www.silvermans.co.uk/tabid/63/MILITARY/WEBBING+1958+PATTERN/SKU/4-456/Default.aspx

 

I shall now respectfully take my place at the back of the queue of people looking for the matching nylon belt, poncho carrier and waterbottle pouch.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]89370[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]89371[/ATTACH]

Here's the elusive nylon poncho roll or cape-carrier...........

The British steel DR helmet was made in a size range from 6 & 1/4 through to 7 & 3/4"..........sizes went up by 1/4" rather than 1/8ths as on "soft" headdress...........the two largest helmet sizes 7 & 1/2 and 7 & 3/4 used a larger helmet shell than the other sizes..............

Theoretically, a Size 7 equates to a 56cm head circumference, a 7 & 1/4 a 58cm, etc..............

Bear in mind however, that the felt/horsehair padded liners are not well sized...........my 7 & 1/4 is a far worse fit than a size 7..............I also have a size 7 & 3/4 that is like a bucket ! You turn your head and the helmet stays still.......:-D

We must remember that the wartime ML was arguably intended as "disposable".............that said, the civvy version continued post-war up to 1948...........

There are few differences between the WD and post-war civvy version........I have both parts lists and cross-referencing is interesting...............

Very early post-war civvy retained the folding footrests, cylindrical toolbox and DU42 headlight..........however, the mudguards were extended........there is no photographic evidence showing any WD versions in service with the longer "civvy" mudguards..............

The WD engine was identical to the civvy one in spec, as were all sprocket sizes and gear ratios..............the wheels too, were identical..............

Later post-war civvy versions had different lighting fitted including a different headlight and rear-lamp.........rigid footrests were also fitted as was a kidney-shaped tool-box..............fuel tank filler cap also now of civvy type without the screwed-vent...........other differences included a stronger centre stand and a securing clip attached to the front-end of the rear mudguard.............the frame too, had the tyre-pump attachment pieces now as bolt-on items rather than welded to the frame as per WD versions...............handlebar mounting also changed from the single WD-type stem to a 2-piece bolt-on clamp arrangement.............

Even if you can find hubs or wheels, all the other bits (other than mechanical) are horrendously hard to find today...........after all, only some 6,000 WD ML's were made, about 3,000 less than WD RE Flea's and far, far less than most other makes..........original WD parts are accordingly very, very hard to find nowadays............post-war civvy wheels should do nicely though, IF you can find 'em.....I looked everywhere for 5 years and just gave up........oh, and they're 36 spoke not 40 !!!!!

Other than the WW2 serge para-type BD trousers, no subsequent special pattern ever made................

Post-WW2 para's favoured either denim BD Trousers, or the 1950 pattern "Trousers, Drill, OG" (tropical combat trousers in green drill with a crossover-belt fastened waist...).................also favoured were (from the early 60s) "Trousers, Overall, Green" which replaced the denim BD trousers.............again, made from cotton-drill but of a more conventional cut and almost a copy of the heavy green 1960 pattern combat trousers but lacking the large left-leg pocket, field dressing pocket and (in some cases) the right-rear hip pocket..........later issues of these trousers, made up to 1970, were produced in olive drab poly-cotton and added the hip and large left-leg pocket..............by 1972 the green poly-cotton "TML's" (Trousers, Mens, Lightweight) began to replace all earlier patterns..............

As 43 Reece correctly stated, we copied most of the early German para kit.......this included the smock and side-lacing boots..........later, a higher version of the ammo boot with moulded crepe-rubber soles..........latter deemed unnecessary.........

There are photos in Brian Davis's excellent book "British Army Uniforms and Insignia of WW2" (out of print) of the crepe-soled later boots............plus, many images showing early para's in training, some of whom retain both patterns of early trial boots alongside others in ammo boots and anklets.........

Looks like 18157....? And, all looks original frame-wise.....? But I'm a tad rusty with WD Enfields and isn't that an odd location for a frame number...? Weren't they either on the headstock or front downtube..???? (almost "vertical" ?????)

I'm not quite sure what you mean Lex?

Here are the latest pix from my shed!! Ron

Both original plate's I've seen were on the rear portion of the rear-mudguards....one on a 340B (Chief) and the other on a 741B..............both were brass........steel type may well have been used on later (1942-43) 741B contracts....

I wonder if these plates were fitted at UK Ordnance Depots following delivery of the bikes prior to issue...? Would seem logical.....?

Actually developed as part of the cold weather clothing for the Korean war........sized large to fit over felt insoles and thick socks........

One interesting "aside" Ron, was that years ago now I saw an unrestored 741B and a 340B (Chief) ordered under British wartime contracts.........both had the typical (brass) WD contract plates affixed onto the rear mudguards, no doubt added at UK ordnance depots after they hit UK shores.........might be a nice detail to add...??

Fed up of looking for never-ending parts for my WD ML project that don't seem to exist (eg - wheels !!) I decided it was easier and cheaper to buy a complete James ML..........!

This bike is totally complete, running and needs nothing other than a re-paint in the correct SCC No.2 brown (for 1943) and a service................

Frame is ML 3401 and she dates from the end of the first ML WD contract (294/23/S.1972) and was delivered around September 1943...............she still has the original steel contract plate affixed to the tail of the rear mudguard below the tail-light.....

This particular bike is no stranger to me....I owned and restored her 21 years ago now, and she has sat in a museum since..........she's a little tired from 21 years of no-use so time for a re-furb' and using !!!

Given her to my wife as a late Valentine's day gift ! :red: Vidya's only "CC41" size (eg - "economy" !!!) so it fits her rather well, better than our larger machines.............

I have a thing for James ML's........

Here's mine, acquired earlier this year in great condition with only one tiny moth hole on the upper-left chest.........Flight Sergeant Wireless operator/Air Gunner.........Size 17 (large) and dated 1942...........this cost me around £55 which for this is a real bargain.........

This is one to try and get hold of. It used to be available on VHS from the IWM....but not any more for some reason? A friend did a couple of dozen copies of mine onto DVD but I think they are all gone now. It's about 3 hours worth in B&W and all narrated by Chumely-Warner!!!! Brilliant! Ron

PS I just heard from my mate. He has five of these double DVD's left if anyone wants one at £15 inc post in UK. PM me for his email address.

Hi Ron,

I'd be up for one DVD set please ! I have both on VHS and never got round to transferring them over to DVD.........they are superb..........

Can you email me and we will take it from there ? Cheers ! Steve

Hello,

 

Can anybody give me the colour code for a James ML used in Holland in 1944?

Thank you in advance!

Most ML's seen in wartime photos were from the first contract for around 3,500 bikes.........production commenced during March 1943 at 300 per month and by June this was up to 500 per month, the contract finishing around October '43.......delivery to the Army started around April/June '43 to Ordnance depots with distribution to units thereafter as deliveries arrived and were processed..........

So......for D-Day onward most bikes would have been from the first contract........and as 1943 manufacture the standard factory colour at that time was "SCC. No.2 (brown)"...............from original new-old-stock parts I have, this was a khaki-brown not dissimilar to the colour of British serge battledress uniform...........

Although olive drab was a new colour introduced for vehicles from April 1944 onward, this generally only applied to new factory stock, and only after stocks of the earlier brown paint were used up.............so, I'd go for brown to be 75% accurate for Holland in '44........)

Desert DPM introduced during the first Gulf War..........due to the urgent need for the gear, the existing design of tropical combat jacket, trousers and bush hat were used, and the DPM of existing pattern but "simplified" by the use of two colours only..........the usual SCRDE trial and design stages were binned with the first issue of desert DPM due to the sheer urgency.............

Subsequent issues of desert DP during GW1 were simplified to a degree from the original tropical design, all to speed up production............this included the deletion of the rear hip pocket and trouser fly buttons plus even further simplified DPM prints (the so-called "sparse" pattern on account of the - well, sparse cammo overprint).............

By 93-94 after GW1 the desert combat smock was introduced in heavy cotton, identical to the European "Smock, Combat, Temperate" of the era ("big" buttons and zip chest pockets)..............after CS95 clothing was introduced in 95-96 the DPM desert clothing followed a similar design to this.........

Worth noting that the British Army did trial a 4-colour desert DPM between the late-70s and early 80s intended for use by 5 Airborne Brigade but it didn't get past the trial stage as British involvement in a Middle Eastern war was then seen as unlikely............kit made was also based on the existing tropical combats of the time, plus a copy of the para smock and helmet cover were also made it seems.............I have also seen a copy of both the 68 pattern trousers and smock in 4-colour desert, made during the early 80s by "A Grantham Ltd" (MoD Contractor)...........both items UK made and identical to 68 pattern garments of the era in all detail.........a copy of the para smock was also noted............seems these were either late UK trial garments or made for a Middle-Eastern contract..........?

Interesting - have not seen one before. So they took NOS hoods and put DPM waterproof material on them for general sale?

Correct Jason......although bizarely the early 51-52 green gabardine hood in a large size is now really collectible in it's own right !!! lol

Another arctic windproof smock............post-84 issue but note the presence of the rear rank tab and no FFD pocket ! I reckon this dates from 84 - 86.......? Made by James Smith & Co............

Selection of British windproof SAS and arctic combat smocks and trousers........early 1975/76 to 83 era and post that date..................all new.......

The FFD sleeve pocket first appeared on the replacement smock for the 68 pattern.......these appeared during 1984......it is thought that the FFD sleeve pocket was introduced as a result of Falkland's feed-back where troops clad in layers of upper clothing could not easily access the FFD pocket then located on the upper-right front of the 68 pattern and arctic windproof combat trousers..........(though most with any field experience by that time already carried additional dressings in other pockets, taped to webbing, etc)............

Accordingly, the design was applied to other garments from this point onward, primarily the tropical combat jacket, para smock, SAS and arctic windproof smocks...............we are looking at 84-85 here and the changeover was not overnight..........

Arctic windproof lost the rear rank tab late-80s with some manufacturers due to being useless when a pack was worn...............it did disappear with some as early as 84, but I have examples still bearing the rear rank tab that date from later...........

Metric sizing common from 84 onward........only the 68 pattern gear, pullys, KF shirts, liners, and some headgear and other items continued with the older numbered sizes............the period 83-85 was rather transitional.............and indeed, older stocks of fabric continued to be used up where available.............cotton gabardine in particular as used in arctic and SAS garments, was expensive so waste was not generally acceptable..........

Jason/Harry, the DPM covered 50s hoods........these were either made by or supplied by Silverman's as early as the 80s..........not the first one I have seen either............

Never been too sure about these........no contract number on the label which always makes me uneasy.........

I used a NOS WD clutch basket with NOS steel plates but the modern bonded fibre friction plates..........new springs too...........one less friction plate (on account that the modern versions are thicker) and one less steel and it works very well........beautiful light clutch, and a gearbox that just snicks into place...............no issues here in the transmission department.......