David B.

Interesting - once upon a time I was after "heat resistant" paint for some engine or other - to be told by a paint rep not to waste my time because engines dont actually get so hot that decent paint peels. In a way I sort of see his point - after all the engine (generally) is surrounded by water at 80-90 degrees and lots and lots of other components are even cooler.

 

Anyway from that day to this I have just used ordinary paint and it has always done the job (not manifolds though!)

In 1970 I painted my Austin engine in Woolworth's Household Paint. It lasted until about 2000 or thereabouts when the engine was rebuilt and painted again.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]77713[/ATTACH]David, this is what I think the plate should look like based on what I have gleaned from various sources. It needs tweaking with regard to spacings but the dimensions are the same as my damaged plate. I did a similar thing for my lightweight trailer based on information provided to me by Richard Farrant and Rob van Meel. I get the design printed onto vinyl and lay it over brass plate and then stamp numbers and letters where appropriate. they look very good and are long lasting (at least two years so far). I know it is not the steel used by OE but it is practical unless someone knows a source of steel plate of similar thickness.The only thing I do not know is if the mortar trailers were differentiated on the data plate - mine has a large rust hole in exactly that place

Morning Tony,

Thats a good constructive thing to do. I've put mine next to it and I can confirm only some of the wording.

Top Line - Only a dash between "10" and "CWT" to add. Otherwise same lettering

Second line - I have a rusted out hole at the beginning so I can't see the vacant square shown as white.I think there is the number "2" on a plain background however underneath the "L" of trailer in the top line.I can't see "OEC" too clearly , otherwise in agreement with you.

Third Line - Same as you but I think that the word "number" is written in full.

Anyone else with confirmation ?

David,

 

 

 

I simply asked Robert if he did such plates and he sent me a photos of plates that he had already done - so presumably he has all the artwork and information required already. The brass plate was for a SSC built No1 MkII GS trailer but presumably he will just change that lettering to the appropriate initials for the manufacturer as well as the metal from which the plate is made

 

 

sk

Others will know better than me but this plate sounds to be one for the 10 cwt LIGHTWEIGHT Trailer the "airborne" type. I believe they were made with the designation which included Number and Mark descriptions.

The 10 cwt GS , Mortar and Mortar Ammunition trailers were made with No 1 and No 2 designations only according to the 1948 Identification List and the 1960 Illustrated Parts List .

SS trailers,both Lightweight and ordinary 10 cwt types seem to have had brass plates(as did other makers) which survive better than the Orme Evans steel plates.@

Do any Orme Evans plates survive with anyone in an uncorroded condition,sufficiently clear and in good enough condition to have copied ?

I just stumbled on these on ebay that look like the same ones.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Vintage-Metal-Large-Hinges-Door-Gate-Window-30-7-11-/300755318372

This should really be required watching for anyone interested in obscure,obsolete and rusty old bits of bent metal. In other words - all of us. The commentator sounds like one of those blokes at the Ideal Home Exhibition,selling gadgets for slicing beans and cutting carrots. I liked it.

David, After staring at my damaged data plate for ages in varying light I think that I can make out a '2' at the end of where the contract no. should be...therefore it reads 23.........2 which should no doubt be contract 23/4302. This was printed on the plate, not stamped as with my lightweight trailer thus probably meaning that the GS 2 and mortar trailers were made for each contract and were not randomly added to contracts.

Tony - Our plate,which is very rough reads TRAILER 10-cwt 2 WHLD GS.

.?????? CONT NO 23/4302

Chassis no. W.D. Number???

OE 6622

What is legible on yours and have you had any further thoughts on your lifting handle bracket's originality ? By the way is it your headboard or tailboard which drops down?

Gordon thanks for the info. Ours is too far gone to copy I think. Has anyone a good clear one ?

have you tried Robert at Dataplates4u?

 

http://rdrnl.home.xs4all.nl/4UWPIntro2.html

 

he does them for the GS trailer

Simon - I can't see them on his website. Have you had GS trailer plates from him ? The Orme Evans steel plates rust badly and ours could do with replacing.

David, I would be surprised if the tow handles were a later modification - they certainly appear original. However, this has got me into the mood for restoring the trailer again and so I am after a few pieces of information: has anybody got a photo of a mortar trailer data plate............I have one for a GS trailer and a lightweight airborne trailer but my mortar trailer plate is too damaged to make out all the lettering? Also, I asked before, does anybody know what the three downward projections from the rear of the chassis are for? Some of the blame for getting me started on this must lay at the door of John Corden so if I need a replacement towing hitch no doubt he will let me have his spare at a very reasonable price!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello Tony,

As you have said before,there has been very little information about on these trailers and although we have had to suspend work on ours I've spent a few idle moments trying to do a little research on them. By correlating some of the existing facts I have made a few deductions which may or may not be correct.

Specifically - I think all the No 1 trailers had the lifting arms pivoting on brackets welded to the tow bar and the different type of hitch illustrated earlier in this thread (without the integrally mounted lifting arms) Pictures I have seen of these earlier trailers of whichever maker seem to bear this out and the illustrations in the trailer Parts List and The Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles also support that supposition.

I'm happy to stand corrected and I have to say that your brackets look right ,but that would fly in the face of the fact that your chassis number and other characteristics are those of a No 2 trailer which did not have such brackets but which does have a chassis number in the same contract as ours which is confirmed as a No 2 GS by the steel ID plate which we have.

Incidentally your chassis/census details together with ours points to a sequential relationship between chassis and X number and so another Orme Evans chassis number should enable you to calculate the census or X number.

All of this says to me that there is a long way to go to document and prove any information which at the moment is lacking on these little workhorses. I'm happy to try and keep this info together,if by the provision of other proven information or photos supplied by other owners the facts could be illustrated.

Could we start with other owners observations on the lifting arm question and go from there ?

I will say I don't want to get too anal about all this,after all its only something to cart the tent about or or to put the beer in and tow behind the Jeep or 15cwt . I am happy to share any info that I have and if it is all proven step by step the information would usefully fill a gap in trailer knowledge.

Regards,

David.

I agree with you David on the handles and mudguards.

 

Tony good find! Your hitch housing is a standard post war Bradley doublelock type used on many trailers and caravans and still going in revised form, it does the job though :cheesy:

I'm glad that you have identified the hitch Carleton,it's a new one on me.

Tony - your trailer is definitely from the same contract as ours which would place it quite late on.1944/45 at least.Looking again at your picture of the drawbar,the welded-on brackets do look different to the No1 trailer and I would think that they are a modification,probably contemporary to the fitting of your tow hitch. If you wanted to be correct,they should come off and an (expensive) cast hitch fitted of the type which we spent ages to find ,see early on in this thread. Have a word with John Corden or Ian Litchfield who may have spares.

David.

Mudguards are angled, body is typically mortar trailer with forward facing drop side. Even the badly rusted data plate says that it is a mortar trailer (OE... Orme Evans) - I will try and sort out some old photos soon. My originals of the condition when I found it are severely water damaged unfortunately

OK Tony - I may stand to be corrected. I associate the lifting handle brackets mounted on the draw bar as being the typical of the No 1 trailer. This is the case with the Reynolds and SS made No1s for example but they have rounded mudguards which I also believed to be the shape of all No1 models regardless of manufacturer.

If you have the census number or contract number of your Orme Evans still legible on the data plate, I should be able to tell if it was constructed as a No1 or No2 trailer and whether therefore, by inference the brackets welded to the drawbar are original. Our Orme Evans (with angled mudguards and lifting arms integral with the tow hitch ) was made under contract S4302 a mixed contract for almost 2000 No2 GS and Mortar trailers numbered X5421421 - X5423417 .

David.

My towing eye is also a mystery - it has the larger ring (as for 15cwt trucks) but a strange housing. The hand grips are welded to the chassis bar which suggests an earlier towing mechanism. QUOTE]

Without seeing much of your trailer I believe it to be an earlier No 1 type with the tow hitch separate from the lifting handles. These were often retrospectively replaced with the larger diameter eye and handles mounted integrally with the tow hitch body fitted as standard on the No 2 trailers. I'm not familiar with your tow hitch type though.

What is your body like and what shape are the mudguards ?

Today I had a chance to ride in a friends LVT

 

Glad to see you made it back OK.obviously all the bungs were in place. Charlie does have a track record where remembering things are concerned,you should ask him about his Weasel.

Please give him my best and hope to see him soon. David.

Hello fellas,

Just measured the interior diameter of the hitch ring and it looks like 2 3/4" inches..

Hello Sean,

Could that measurement be 2 13/16 inches ? The later No 2 trailers which is what yours is had the tow hitch/eye of this internal diameter fitted as standard in order to be compatible with the standard WD tow hook. The earlier 2 inch id eye would only have fitted the early 15 cwt pin and pintle.

The earlier No 1 trailers also had their hitches retrospectively changed for the later type ,either the cast body or the fabricated type as yours is, thus enabling them to be towed by the later 15 cwt trucks with a standard WD hook. About the largest compatible towing truck with a standard hook seems to have been the Bedford OY as the three ton 4x4 truck's tow hook would have been too high in theory.

Anyway, nice trailer , are there any holes within the body which might have been mortar or ammunition fittings ? If not, it would have certainly been a GS variant. I can give you a little information about manufacturers and contract numbers if you wish but do have a good look for a makers plate.

all the best,

David.

Yes its a mortar trailer, the tailboards have been swapped.

 

The hitch you have is original and a very rare variant, it appears in the manuals if you look closely.

Don't necessarily rush to that conclusion Carleton. It could quite simply be a GS.

The trailer that we have comes from a mixed contract of GS and Mortar trailers. Oddly it has an opening headboard AND opening tailboard. I think that it is a Mortar variant that has been modified because there are signs of conversion at the rear and after all a trailer being used in the GS role would not be a lot of use with a moveable headboard only.

There are number of possible explanations for having the both ends moveable. A programme of retrospective REME type modification changing Mortar trailers for GS use or even changes to the balance of Mortar to GS trailers in the contract and modification by the manufacturers before delivery took place. One clue to the role of the pictured trailer might be if there are any signs internally of the mortar or ammunition fittings.

Absolutely dead right about the hitch though,I've not seen a survivor before and I'd be interested to know if the internal diameter of this fabricated hitch is larger than the earlier type as fitted to the No 1 trailers with the seperate arms or the same as the cast type fitted to the No 2.

Thanks , take a look at this pic, I have seen others as well.[ATTACH=CONFIG]77295[/ATTACH]

If the canvas was down the weapon would get wet when it rained. The other variable might be the length of the dash lights - am I right in thinking that some American dash lights are longer than others ?

On my second trailer is a jeep connector bolted to the front. Does anyone know if this is original? It does have green paint under the red paint.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]76090[/ATTACH]

 

Second question is about the front bracket of the suspension. My other trailer has got a different one. Can someone tell me more about these? Is it another make?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]76091[/ATTACH][/quote

 

 

Hello Arjan,

 

1) The 10 cwt trailers would have started out in British service with the standard WD plug which fitted the socket mounted on the towing vehicle thus enabling them to be towed by 15 cwt trucks and at a pinch by the Bedford OY. I don't know but I presume the Loyd Carrier would also have had the same socket fitted which would have suited the Mortar Trailers.

 

Many British Jeeps (especially the airborne variety) had the REME mod which saw the two way Lucas switch,convoy light and trailer plug socket all mounted on a fabricated bracket. Thus fitted they would be compatible with the standard or Lightweight 10 cwt trailers.

 

Your picture to me certainly looks like a fairly professional REME type modification. I suppose it could have allowed any Jeep which still retained it's original lighting socket to be connected to a trailer fitted with a Jeep socket in this way by the means of a cable fitted with the US type plug at both ends. My guess entirely. It could equally be a modification by another country.

 

A question of which mine which spins off from your enquiry is how did Willys/Bantam trailers fitted as original connect to Jeeps in British service if they were modified by the REME. All answers on a postcard..............

 

 

 

2) The question has been asked before about the differing spring hanger brackets - cast or fabricated.

 

Almost no response to this when question when posted in another thread but my observation is that the cast bracket that you have in your hand is the same as the No 2 Trailer,Orme Evans in my case and Transport Equipment Group as I have seen. The welded/fabricated bracket seems to be standard to the No 1 type.

Cheers,

 

David.

Tim - I would be interested in making contact with the Nubian owner. I have some pictures of it after I acquired it ex Century Theatre about 30 years ago.

David.

That was definately a leg pull! The Pounds tanks all had post war census numbers on them.

One story I heard was that most of the AFVs were the loaded contents of a ship (LST ?), prepared for embarkation to Suez,never unloaded and sold for scrap,lock stock and barrel together with the ship.

David, Yes indeed. Far too many mis-spent hours and days in the National Archive. In this case together with 'Rewdco' who also posts here.

 

Visiting is straightforward - details are on the website. You'll need identification to obtain a reader's card and it is now compulsory to undergo a computerised test. I scored 100% with no re-takes so it's not too difficult ! Take a digital camera and make sure you know how to turn the shutter sound off. Camera stands are provided. It's better to copy everything you can get your hands on than to try reading and understanding it there as you'll just get bogged down in the details.

 

There are something over 400 Ministry of Supply contract ledgers relating to wartime contracts (some commence pre-war and end later). Of these, probably twenty or so are relevant to vehicles. However, although there are crude indices, they are not consistent and Demand, contract and completion dates can be in no particular order. The amount of detail shown varies considerably. Early war can be quite good but later contracts, once the MoS also took on AM and Admiralty purchases are little more than listings.

 

There are also files relating to MEE / TT2 tests and appraisals where you may find lots of detail (or nothing at all...it's a needle and haystack job).

 

Prior planning is essential. Anyone turning up without a list of files to look at won't get far in a day. I'll happily run through the most likely files with you.

 

Which manufacturer are you looking at and around which date ? If they were coincidentally on the same page as a motorcycle contract then I may have something on file.

Thanks for your very comprehensive reply (is it Rik?) Sorry for the delay in replying.

I must store your advice away safely until I get some free time and I'm sure it will help me no end. Anything further you can add will be well received.

I'm going to start with the 10 cwt GS,Mortar and Ammunition trailers. I have already a list of contract numbers,makers names and the census number block but would like to know the dates of contract placement and delivery. Is there a short cut to that information or might you already have pages which includes this info .

Thanks again,

David.

Hercules certainly supplied bicycles to Ministry of Supply contracts in some considerable numbers but it's not always possible to tell from MoS ledgers if contracts were intended for the War Office or other official bodies. Some cycles (such as those supplied by Enfield) are referred to as 'WD Pattern'

 

This 1943 contract shows 7500 'Trade Pattern' cycles.

 

 

I've seen reference with other manufacturers to contracts split between 24" and 26" frames so the size does not rule out a government contract.

 

This entry shows that Phillips, Elswick Hopper and Hercules were contracted at the same time to produce 'spare parts for Hercules Bicycles' which perhaps suggests that Hercules didn't have the capacity themselves and points towards a considerable number in service.

 

 

I have only researched powered two-wheelers and don't have copies of the index pages relating to Bicycles or to manufacturers beginning with 'H' so the copies above are those that I have by chance. A days work in the National Archive would give a pretty good idea of numbers suppplied by Hercules but not in any great detail.

I'd be interested to know if the ledger illustrations are a result of your own research in the National Archives and whether you can advise me as to the procedure for arranging a visit and looking for vehicle or trailer contract details,dates of contract placement etc. Is this the best place to look for this information ?

Thanks, David.

The restoration of my 10cwt GS trailer continues at a glacial pace. sk[/quote

 

 

You and me both Simon..... We have an Orme Evans plate in a very corroded state and it differs from other makers in that its steel not brass. It's marked - chassis OE 6622 WD Number X5422162 and relates to contract S4302 for nearly 2000 GS and Mortar trailers.

 

I will try and sort out the contract details and census number info that I have which relates to makers and take a look at the trailer over the weekend.

David.

 

PS John's pictures are of a Transport Equipment Company (Group ?) made trailer which seems to be the last contract issued for 1650 Mortar and ammunition trailers

Julian - my old Hillman used to do this over the Winter sometimes. I used to do as Pete suggests but as it was a lighter vehicle we could get little bit of speed up and then drop the clutch ,in a lower gear though.

If the vehicle has a tendency to do this,blocking the clutch pedal down with a bit of wood while laid up should prevent it happening. Not sure what that does to the clutch springs in the long run though.

David

Danny,

Beware the assumption that this is a wartime conversion. I seem to recollect that the C8 chassis was the basis for a crane conversion that was marketed postwar.

Regards,

david.

In the early 1960's students from Oxford University travelled from Oxford to Morocco in a 1944 Austin K2 Ambulance.

 

The trip was reported in "Payload" the Austin commercial vehicle magazine in a two page article in the May/June 1963 issue a copy of which was sold recently on Ebay.

 

I bid unsuccessfully,thinking it would not sell for very much and have now come to regret my low £5 bid as I would dearly like to read this article.

 

Oxford is my home town,I have a K2 and I have spent a little time in Morocco - I'm not proposing to repeat the trip but I would like to read the article.

 

Can anyone help with a photocopy or scan of this magazine article - perhaps even the purchaser ?

 

All reasonable expences would be covered if anyone can help with a copy. Any help in locating the magazine article or any other accounts of the trip would also be greatly appreciated.

 

David Belcher

Has anyone come across this article or can suggest where to look for it ?

David there are lots of these around:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gunson-77111-Tuning-Spark-Plug-Cleaner-Tool-Garage-Auto-/330832876563?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4d072d1413

 

Gunsons seem to have started to produce them. For ages the only ones advertised were in the USA with high carriage costs. For some years I have been using a "Wally" from Italy it leaks grit a bit round the top were the plug goes in, hence these new ones have a shroud.

 

Only blast for the minimum length of time to minimise the damage to the insulator.

 

I always used to regard a blasted plug as being as good as new, but this is not the case it will require more HT to get a spark unless the contacts are filed & reset. Although that may be difficult with a multi contact plug.

Thanks Clive - looks a worthwhile buy. Presumably under the bag its much the same as your "Wally"

Off at a slight tangent - I have a couple of sets of difficult to replace 3 point screened plugs in a very sooty state through similar use which I would like to clean up properly - rather more than a rub up with a wire brush.

Does any one know of or have one of those old Champion ( I think) blast cabinets which were used for the thorough cleaning of spark plugs in garages some years ago ?

Thanks - David.