fv1609

Kevin I sent you a Private Message via the forum a couple of days ago.

Kevin nice to see the machete holder still in place & the period fire extinguisher. There should be a reinforced canvas cover surrounding the gear box boot. It looks as if you have got the spare periscope holder for No.17 Mk1 or Mk3 (don't know what happened to Mk2) that is quite rare to see.

The rear woodwork is neat & ingeneous, but not original. Mk2 Pigs did have wooden bench seats but they were quite substantial. The seats for Mk1 were made of canvas filled with "horse hair" supported on a steel frame.

The wooden dividing panels are correct & were generally painted in aluminium like yours. Don't be tempted to paint the seats in this as the correct anti-inflamable aluminium paint doesn't dry like it does on metal. (I painted some woodwork on a Hornet & it had never completely "dried" after 14 years). So even if you used a silvery Hammerite on the seats it would look odd,  even Mk2 seats were not painted in aluminium, they were either varnished or painted red.

The frames that have been made for yours, I just wonder if they go a little too far forward in that they might be blocking the access to the small floor panels that cover a small locker on each side? Unfortunately you can't have the big underfloor locker under the large rear panel as the winch lives there of course.

Been meaning to post this for a while, but this silencer is NOT for a Humber Pig.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274565581938?hash=item3fed624c72:g:QRAAAOSwTudfpuRz&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoIgBBF0pUr1rnXVNNbzeXYy0qCN9rKIezpMSqRStLaTUMBCwUfxv0GZqcqSAlB3a5Lx5KIyXEgqx4xIqpLBeFHGr2cMcnGykbghiZ88lS9BCWici2roJDHxbyEt2GGKGpKK5FEoDRA74m1CCDh1tSmnYOVs%2FQVN0oy02a7NHeDg7LfXrjvP%2BkrGvCt3Y6adGckLcpbhn6FX7UNZ1eC%2F7AsM%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5rXj-GfYQ

I have told the seller when they were first advertised, but the advert has not been changed. I suspect he has a lot of these!

Your cab looks petty complete & the seats original. The driver's seat looks good but the passengers canvases have faded badly & the back rest ripped. I need to check but I may be able to help. What are the rear seats like?

I'll PM you the roof canvas seller in case he only has one left & someone beats you to it.

Where are you?

Kevin I think I had got myself confused going on about 30 BK 09, but is was at least an excuse for an unusual Pig picture engaged with the civil authority in Cyprus I think.

The colour of yours looks fine high gloss deep bronze green although shades of even genuine paint can vary considerably particularly with manufacturer.

Someone once told me the canvas was to downgrade the appearance of the Pig so it didn't look armoured, which is complete nonsense. The idea was for insulation from the Sun in that there is a layer of air created by the rails supporting the canvas from the armoured body. Historically it rather blends in with the FV1609 that had just a canvas rear cover. Yes it would be appropriate to have a canvas on yours, if you want one I can put you in touch with someone who may still have some NOS ones. There are pictures of BAOR where troops have stuffed general baggage under the canvas for storage. Embarrassingly I have seen owners of Mk2 Pigs fit them which is utterly ridiculous.

There were a lot of driver's comfy seats around, these were remade for NI & most were in a horrible puce green that looks quite daft in a Mk1. I still have some canvas passenger seats which were fairly common as they were used in some folding stools, rarer are the passenger seat canvas backs I think I may have one or two.

The front & rear lockers are very rare, for years I had some NOS with labels still attached. Then someone bought them all I'm afraid. The front ones would be the most difficult to make because they have pressed edges. The rear ones could be a bit easier but even the proper lids give another avenue for water. It is no coincidence that the front & rear lockers had drain holes!

Unfortunately RLC archives don't list having your B Card. Although you may be able to recover some unit or divisional markings on the front plate overlying the radiator & the rear doors. The problem is that many owners will get the armour sandblasted without any thought of trying to recover the history that may lie beneath waiting to be discovered by those who take the history seriously.

I see that yours correctly has only the three antenna mounts. I have seen a fourth one added on the rear off side because it was thought to be missing. But this was only added when an FFW was being upgraded to FFR & no FFWs had a winch.

Kevin thanks for posting that, as it has saved me dredging up the info again. Yes a working winch on a Pig is quite rare these days.

The contract plate shows the serial no. ROFN 353 so that is ROF (as I guessed from a characteristic of some armour pieces) & from Nottingham which looks like contract 6/VEH/27504.

That is the highest SN I have seen for a ROFN. The thing is there were 1,700 Pigs built by the three facilities. Yet I have seen S 949 & ROFW 903, so I am trying to figure out how SNs were allocated between the three.

Don't worry about what I'm going to say as most people would not notice or care about the details. But to a nit-picker it can be seen that the front wings have been made with no lockers & the wing tops have sagged under the weight of people kneeling into the engine. I found the bench seat from a FV432 was ideal for this & saves sore knees. Anyway the wing should be supported underneath by cruciform U-channels & any sagging of the plate would show this X pattern. Mk2 Pigs that had damaged wings were replaced of a thicker metal sheet with no lockers & two parallel U-channel supports underneath.

The rear lockers should have a long piano hinge so that the top 5in or so could fold down towards the wheel arch to allow easier access. The lower part of the rear should have small side lockers on each side.

It would be interesting see what your chassis plate looks like when you view it on near side with your head in front of the wheel. You might like to compare yours with the pictures of what is marked up as 13 BK 56 that has structural similarities.

5 hours ago, wally dugan said:

I checked the loans file for vehicles lent to the GRANGE CAVERN COLLECTION a number of vehicles were lent  by the RCT via THE MUSEUM OF army transport including  HUMBER PIGS the one that has the most interesting history is 30 BK 09 which in 1991 was the subject of great interest by the MOD.

Wally I see from the Chilwell ledger it was SO to Beverley on 24/2/83. It had a spell in Cyprus when it was a Mk1. I wonder what was the interest in 1991?

7 hours ago, Kevin Julian said:

it entered service 1953, ended service 1970 and was sold off also 1970. I need to go through the full check list but I think it is an RUC spec MK1?

Kevin as you probably realise it didn't enter service as a Pig in 1953 but as an unarmoured CT Truck FV1601B. It would only have become a Pig in the 1959/60 period. Trying to zoom in on the photos but I think the bodywork is from ROF (Royal Ordnance Factories) rather than Sankey. But if you can post a picture of the cab contract plate plate below the passenger's window you can tell by the serial number prefixed by ROFN (ROF Nottingham), ROFW (ROF Woolwich) or S (Sankey).

Not an RUC spec, the ten FV1609A delivered to the MoHA for use by the RUC Reserve Force were delivered in 1958.  32 BK 87 got returned to the Army & replaced with a standard Army Mk1 13 BK 01. This had some RUC adaptations most noticeable being an adjustable height barricade ram. It could be set close to the ground to prevent beer kegs etc being rolled under the vehicle. A lessen not learnt by the Army when they designed their barricade ram!

The RUC ram was slightly snow plough shaped to help spread obstructions sideways. As this was a fairly uncommon adaptation (I have seen one other so fitted) it was used as a front-line vehicle & consequently was a well photographed Pig, it was registered as 3071 EZ. Sad to say, there is a bogus Pig around bearing this registration which as a Mk2 is shear fantasy.

There was a prototype Army Mk1 07 BK 65 that was loaned to the RUC from in 4/5/60 to copy for the manufacture of armoured roofs & other fittings this was not on active service & returned to the Army on 14/9/61

I have a lot of Pig pictures but the only one I have is of yours when I saw it at The Grange. I have the ledger & sales details of yours, but I don't have anything of its service history. I can dig out what I have got but no idea when & where I posted any details, perhaps post what you have got & I can add anything I've not mentioned before.

Did you make the wings, side lockers & light guards or was it the previous owner, they are awkward things to fabricate & does it still have the winch?

There are some more pictures on here & not forgetting the shots used in the making of the film "Tommy" by The Who.

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/retro/in-pictures-a-history-of-john-pounds-scrapyard-at-tipner-2904201

There are some shots of the yard that crop up in this

Tipner, between the greyhound stadium & the shoreline where you used to see a couple of subs & Goodwin lightships anchored.

No pictures here either I'm afraid.

Welcome Mike. Any pictures of the Pig? In service pictures of vehicles are such a valuable resource.

Curiouser and curiouser! Good luck with your researches.

The improvements in design of No.9 over No.7 were summarised on 12th July 1943 as:

I can find no literature on this sight, if there was an EMER it would be in EMER INSTRUMENTS AND SEARCHLIGHTS B 400-550 but all these sections are allocated to other instruments.

B 432-439, with references back to 1942, covers SD No.9 in some detail with lots of diagrams & a full description. It seems to have been the replacement for No.7A, 7B & 7C in that it was used in a similar way using the same carriages & carriers.

There are several references to No.7 and its similarity, but there were many internal changes to overcome "manufacturing difficulties".

Thanks for the update, that is sad news.

The paint scheme of the one being loaded is a little curious for depicting a vehicle with an urban security role.

Are there any updates of these two Pigs?

Richard your MERLIN is different from mine, I haven't got any disposal locations & it gives the date as 15/11/93. Although that is wrong as I have a scan of the Chilwell ledger which shows it was Struck Off at VSD NI on 24/6/93, but Struck Off again on 14/1/94 to Dalton Barracks, where I assume it has been a gate guardian?

An engine & a gearbox would have been a good start : (

This is a very accurate copy of a plate fitted inside the cab on a "Mk2". We had ten of these made & they formed the basis of an award at W&P for the best Humber 1 Ton (of any variant) The award was in memory of my friend & prolific Humber owner, Dale Prior who died in 2010 & is commemorated on the reverse of the brass plate. 

Something unusual about this award it was not necessarily for the prettiest example, but one that had the greatest originality AND showed evidence of being serviced correctly and regularly. The paint finish, number of accoutrements, flags etc were irrelevant!

My eagle-eyed friend in The Netherlands spotted this:

https://www.brightwellslive.com/timed-sale/5365/lot/603537

Although some of the MOD provided details lack accuracy.

This is the type of chassis plate you should see. It was removed from a "Mk2" Pig that was being cut up, but the plate has nothing whatever to do with its up-armouring & conversion to "Mk2"

This is the original plate when it was converted 1959-60 to a Pig as a real Mk2. I know this because the Asset Code given is 310119-01-777 but in 1966 the Asset Code became 1765-0501. This new code or VESPER Code was to make it manageable by ADP (Automatic Data Processing) systems. If you had the record card it would be stamped "ADP CON" meaning that the coding had been converted for this new management system.

When it was up-armoured to so called "Mk2" the Asset Code changed to 1765-2501 if it was retained as FFR, but many were converted to APC role & became 1760-2501.

This 4-digit + 4-digit coding system persists to this day, although the MOD seem unaware that the present method of coding is quite different from the original structuring. Up until recently there were still some Sankey trailers on census, by using current MOD coding system they would seem to be LHD diesel powered trucks!!

I would be interested to see your chassis or cab plates. Incidentally "A" suffix indicates not fitted with a winch, "B" indicates fitted with a winch.

There should be two main data plates & sometimes a third on a Mk 2 Pig.

The chassis plate is 6in x 3in, put your head in front of the front wheel on passenger's side & it should be vertically in front of you on the chassis.

The contract plate for the body is 6in x 1in is inside the cab on the passenger's side attached to the body just below the windscreen. With a Mk 2, if the scuttle armour is still present, you will not be able to see this as it relates to when it was converted from a GS truck to armoured truck 1959-60. There may be an additional plate somewhere on the driver's side 6in x 3in that relates to its conversion to Mk 2 June 1972 -Sept 1973.

Depending on the contract & whether the Pig conversion was done by Sankey or Royal Ordnance Factories it may say Mk2 , but this predates the uparmoured conversion into the so called Mk2. This is because the real Mk1 Pig were those 20 prototypes built in 1956, the production Pig was the real Mk2, so some plates are marked Mk2 & some are left blank on the Mk space.

The Army forgot that the production Pig was the real Mk 2 and incorrectly took it to be the Mk 1. So when they were uparmoured they called them Mk2 but should really have called them Mk3 !!

There is sometimes a chassis number visible stamped into the chassis when you look down into the engine bay in the vicinity of the chassis plate when you look down onto the chassis. It is quite unusual to see this as time, grot, rust, paint & oil can obscure it.

Morning Paul no such variant listed in the 97 variants in the ISPL.

So you are expecting a very wet & frosty winter then?