BlueBelle

Flower shaped insignia (on the Turret of the previous Saladin) must be the same as this one.

Can anyone identify the decal itself.

 

Saladin is of the Queen's Own Hussars 'A' Squadron

but I can't seem to find a decal or insignia matching this look and shape.

 

(This particular Saladin would be a good choice for my kit,

if i can nail down the correct markings.)

 

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You should look here for regimental history/locations (other sources are available):

http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk/regimental_history.htm

I think it's this:

The regiment certainly served in Catterick as the RAC Training Regiment (not necessarily the whole regiment) and would have sported the Catterick District flash, a Yorkshire Rose as in my photo. Trick is to find another photo of a Catterick-based RAC Training Regiment vehicle to see and compare what it had for a command/district flash.

The regiment’s name, in some way, or other term, would have been painted onto the white band on top of the RAC Arm of Service flash. The turret may have borne the regiment’s badge, as did QDG Saladins and tanks when in the same role at Catterick.

Can you see The White Horse of Hannover? I can, and it may have a garter blue background. See, it’s on the gun barrel end cap! A small garter blue rectangular with a white horse may have been worn as flash on the lower glacis, as all armour did when running around as 3^rd King’s Own Hussars (Conquerors, Centurions and Dingos - DBG). Check whether or not your Saladin should also be sporting a New Zealand Fern Leaf!

Why don’t you settle for something simpler, paint it Light Stone and represent your Saladin as a 2RTR one, Libya 1959-62. So easy!

The sword and crown is the London DISTRICT sorry cannot make out the second one

London District operators of Saladins, were to the best of my limited knowledge, only ever The Household Cavalry.

Blues & Royals, methinks. There were several varieties, same shape with or without squiggly bit protruding on base. Some had, in the middle, EIIR or an eagle. Guess it depended too, on year.

Now, staying in the year of 1956 :-) with another Tripoli unit, we'll take a peek at a row of Scammell Explorers and Diamond Ts belonging to either 19 Armd or 5 Med Workshop REME. Can't see the old faithfulls there (94BD17 or 27). How do I know its 1956, you may well ask? Well, this time the photographer not only said as much, though the Arm of Service flash numbers tends to tell me as much ('the senior or only' REME divisional workshop for 10 Armd Div), other photos I have do too and, to a lesser degree, the warpaint 'H' all provide the confirmation.

Notice the 'near the radiator' spotlights on two of the Scammells and that two of them have a dangly thing hanging down off the cab roof above the windscreen.

The photographer who 'was there' has kindly supplied me with his photographic collection and full usage rights, so honoured and lucky me! I also have from him some very interesting vehicle photos from late 1955/early 1956 of REME in action in Egypt prior to the British withdrawal pre-Suez invasion. An M32 ARV of 3RHA L.A.D REME looks splendid in Light Stone, yet despite 3RHA M and D batteries departing for Homs, Libya to join J battery who had been there for two years, I can't bring myself to show the photo as its Egypt and this is a Tripolitania Libya thread (for most of the time). If I knew that 3RHA departed Egypt with their M32 ARVs, and that the ARVs did go to Homs, I might be tempted. Oh, I do know from a fuzzy photo that 14/20 Hussars, as part of the newly formed 25 Armd Div in 1952, had M32 'looking' ARVs over at Sabratha (14/20H departed Nov 1955). They may of course, have inherited them from the 4/7 Dragoons though I guess the ARVs never made it to the Queen's Bays once the 14/40H had departed (the Bays there had Centurion ARV Mk1s).

I do like to see RL Binners sneaking into the views.

Photo by John Newton REME.

while searching files on disc l came across this information the FV 402 IN CANADA is listed as 60 BA 09 ESTABLISHMENT

number 4791 the one in thread 134 was sent to a range on the 11th july 1958 as a target prototype no2 was KYW36

and was reduced to scrap on the same date as prototype number one.

As to the FV 421

PROTOTYPE NUMBER REGISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT NUMBER FATE DISPOSAL DATE

ONE 00 CA 22 5707 TARGET 15/12/ 67

TWO 00 CA 24 5761 TARGET 15/12/67

THREE 00 CA 26 5762 SOLD 15/12/67

FOUR MOCK UP 5710 USED FOR RECOVERY 12/3/71

FIVE 00 CA 24 5711 SCRAPPED 15/8/63

SIX 00 CA 25 5767 SCRAPPED 1/4/64

SEVEN 00 CA 28 5785 TARGET 17/6/65

EIGHT HULL MOCK UP 5766 SCRAPPED 1/4/64

NINE 00 CA 30 5788 TARGET 15/12/67

TEN 00 CA 31 5799 TARGET 16/2/68

Now we know what happened to them! Thanks for the enlightenment Wally.

The Moggie has the enlarged rear window of the 1000 which dates this photo as post 1956. I first saw a 1000 in 1957 in Tripoli..

Magnakater QUOTE]

 

I know nothing about cars though the photos show the unit geared up for war, the 1956 Suez invasion and despite not participating, the vehicles remained thus marked, with a H and in use like that for well up to a year and in some cases, beyond, or, were as we've seen earlier, parked up and awaiting use as a hard target. The reverse of the photos says 1956 and Wiki tells me the Moggie with the enlarged rear window first appeard in ...... 1956! :embarrassed: The Moggie is not sand coloured anyway!

There's a K9 hiding behind the Landy.

Very good Sean! Obviously no one else did!:laugh:

I'm with Clive - a marker so the front nearside corner can be seen from the driver's position.

Yes, I believe you're correct though it still looks odd and hardly flexi should it come into contact with it

a human or object. At least it has a bobbly bit on the end!

The original design of Fv421s had the front of the 'cab' in one continuous slope, no window in the only cab door which was on the left side and was hinged on its rear edge. There were no hatches in the cab roof proper but provision for an AA gunner/observer just behind on the centreline of the vehicle. They also had the track idlers very close to the rearmost road wheel.

 

Later they were modified and possibly some built new with the more vertical windscreen, roof hatches in the two sloping sections of roof directly above driver and co driver, a window in the now front hinged door. Seperately the idler was moved back about 9" to the position shown in the photo in the post above and mounted on a much stronger adjusting mechanism with its pivot below the wheel centre instead of above.

 

 

I've just noticed that I have a couple of photos of a 421 which has the early sloping front and (assuming that the negatives haven't been reversed) a door on the right hand side.

 

I don't see anything Bill! :-(

Maybe you'll post them here? I hope so, though as they're probably not sand-coloured, I shan't be too upset if you don't!

A sense of humour is essential to embrace reality, even in times which may be difficult. Of course, British Army humour is renowned for many things in many ways, much of which we are not allowed to repeat due to the white socks and sandal-wearing PC Forces that have stripped society of basic freedoms. How they get away with this treatment of the majority is beyond me, especially when we, the oppressed, tolerate their abhorrent appearance in their white socks and sandals. Mind you, a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere and I was only surveying an official record from an official archive earlier today when I gasped at the references to Arabs and Italians!!! :shocked::shocking:Yes, you've probably guessed correctly. I'd not heard such terminology in years and yes, dear viewer, I have heard it, not just seen it written. My, we've come a long way since, which of course is a jolly good thing for us all, isn't it? :-D

So let's have a look at another sand-coloured little delight over at 10 Armd Div Ord Fd Pk somewhere south of Tripoli in 1956. Yes, an MRA1. Oh, I get to use the 'maneuverers' word again though I think they may be lost as 'consultations' are in effect with the, go on, dare me to say it, go on ...... the monkeys! Yes, the divisional Military Police are there with their Landrover. I have no more information about the photo unless I make it up and we don't want that, do we. Notice warpaint (H) is worn and the MRA1 has run hot unless the nose side panel has dropped off somewhere.

What is that stick thingy on the bumper of the MRA1? Maybe a convoy flag flagpole? A local modification perhaps as I've not seen this on one of these trucks previously.

Photo by EJT (me).

Thanks Sean, especially for your Hippo comments. I had forgotten too that in the run up to Suez, and as on several much earlier occasions, the Libyan Arabs were revolting to some degree against the British (and against the Libyan Jews of whom many were murdered in what's referred to as the Tripoli pogrom) to the extent that British dependents were evacuated from their MQs and hirings into army barracks and thence by fleets of aircraft back to the UK. Dependents all came back early in 1957 after Britain's, France's and Israel's defeat at Suez. Vehicles may have been protected with XPM mesh in Tripoli as I do have accounts of rocks being thrown at British Army trucks and buses where windscreens and windows were smashed. No other photos though.

Just a little bit closer again because the photos you see are not enlarging as sometimes they seem to not want to thus denying us 'full view enlightenment', Grrrr!

It looks as though the canvas tilt shrunk in a rain storm. Hey! Even the tilt on the Hippo next door has shrunk! Maybe they're not Hippo tilts at all?

This splendid photo is a gem and you can see all that I've mentioned far better.

Let's take a closer view of the caged Hippo.

I bet that like myself, you've never ever seen a Hippo thus caged!

Was the steel mesh called Dexion XPM? Maybe.

Why was the Hippo caged and not the others? Could it be to protect high-value or attractive items from pilfering, after all, the Hippo was in the Land of Pilfer? If so, why mesh up the cab too?

Or, could it be that this Hippo was a returnee from that other Land of Pilfer across the eastern border, the place where British Forces were told in no uncertain terms to get out of? Possibly, though I do not know if Hippos over there were caged at all, not even to prevent hurled rocks and other projectiles from breaking windscreens and harming soldiers. I can see though that this Hippo at one time had a different Divisional flash with a shortened top unit name bar, judging by what is underneath the standing Rhino.

Or, maybe it has just been specially meshed-up to go to the H war for some reason, and for the answer, we might need an ancient RAOC Vehicle Specialist to supply the answer? Anyone? The RAOC online forum all play doggo when I ask a question.

This Hippo looks good though!

Oh, its got little twinned rear wheels so that makes it a Hippo Mk2 .... er, I've forgotten if its A or B! Were the rear wheels smaller than the front ones? I have it all somewhere, but not easy to hand right now.

The previous photo, this one and a few more I'll post were donated as originals to me by someone who wants to remain anonymous so now they're mine, all mine! Hence,

Photo copyright EJT (me :laugh:).

Well, that's the K9s parked up for now, shelter tents packed away neatly ...... until the next time! :-)

We certainly learn lots here, don't we? Of course we do, all good stuff as far as I'm concerned.

Now, we're back in Tripoli, Tripolitania where 10 Armd Div Ord Fd Pk had been formed from the smaller 25 Armd Bde Ord Fd Pk, which, if I'm not misinterpreting the records, had existed in cadre form as part of the parent unit, 595 Ord Depot RAOC Kassala Bks (Mareth Bks pre-1955). The Ord Fd Pk seems to have been located in some other barracks and not with 595 Ord Depot. Could have been they were at Gurgi which seems most likely as the 595 Ord Veh Park were there, sharing 'the land' (a very basic 'barracks' with supposedly, no accommodation blocks though plenty of .... TENTS!) with 19 Armd Wksp REME and 5 Medium Wksp REME. RAOC Journals are so vague and provide no barrack names for units but they do tell you what the football score was having played against some other unit! Paff!

So, here's the some of the unit lined up in 1956, with their warpaint on (H) ready to go to somewhere they were not allowed to go to after all. Oh, look at all them RL Binners, and even Hippos!

Some vehicles do not display the 97 on the RAOC arm of service flash which makes me think those were issued from the main Ord or Veh depot to bolster the Ord Fd Pk (97) vehicle numbers.

What purpose the rectangular concrete arches serve is beyond me, though there are two b&w signs visible with the closest saying 'Receipts'. Perhaps the other says 'Issues' though I'm told that as stores were for storing, there were never any issues!

Can you see a caged Hippo? I can. A Moggie too!

I can certainly see the likeness to the Aldershot & for those who don't have the REME book I attach a scan.

 

The thing that worries me is that the diagram shows on each side a pair of "windows" in each of the three sections on each side, whereas the Libyan ones have a larger single window in each of the three sections (as does SP No.2)

 

The diagram shows no windows in the next upper sections yet windows are present on the Libyan ones & SP No.2.

 

The diagram shows a window either side of the entrance, but on both the Libyan ones & SP No.2 there seem to be no such windows.

 

It may be too small a detail to record on the diagram but there are no roof ventilators, although quite basic diagrams of wartime large tents & marquees show them. Difficult to see but some are just discernible of the Libyan ones & SP No.2.

 

Although my picture of Shelter Portable No.2 comes from a 1973 publication it doesn't preclude it from being wartime as the book includes some wartime marquees. I note that the REME wartime book includes SP No.4, so it seems feasible that SP No.2 might have been around back then.

 

 

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So its not the 'Aldershot' after all!!! I rather liked the shelter being that, but now we know the shelter is actually the Shelter Portable No.2. Does the Shelter Portable No.2 have a more 'familiar' 'handle'?

Can we see the scale drawing for that 'Aldershot' too, please? The Shelter Portable No.2.

fv1609 said:

I don't think it can be BC as 43 BC 71 - 99 BC 99 was not used.

 

BG makes more sense & would make it a signals truck which makes the basic vehicle Bridge Class 4, but some fitted with certain installations were Bridge Class 5. So are they different vehicles or has it changed the type of radio installation between photos?

I did say we were going to get back to Tripolitania after the Aldershot shelters in Cyrenaica but I just couldn't resist another one from 'there' and this time, its a K9 again! Notice its an FFW and it has a Bridge Class 7. Oh.

Nor am I going to pretend that the G in the VRN is really a C and I'm not going to show you another (as two colour photos of it, front and rear appear earlier in this thread) with both C and G in the VRN (no wonder I'm confused), and, I'm not going to show you another Tripolitania District K9 which may or may not be FFW with a ..... Bridge Class 9 :shocked:. It was Libya, afterall.

Photo by CH Bloxham REME

Clive

The Aldershot shelter was used in WW2, may pre-date it to. It is detailed in one of the red War Office books on REME, which relates experience gained in wartime. Detailed drawing in it, framework fits the Libya one to a T.

Thank you Richard and Clive. Now we all know. 'Aldershot' it is. I think perhaps you'd have been hard-pressed to find 40 'willing' pairs of REME hands to put the things up 'quickly'! They'd of had to 'rope' in the squadron troops too, methinks especially as I know that when Ajax 2RTR, as a lone squadron, first was stationed in D'Aosta Barracks where the 'Aldershots' had to be errected, the squadron LAD was a lot less than 40 strong, i.e, just a 'Fitter's Section'. Maybe the 'Aldershots' had already been erected prior to their arrival, perhaps by 'barrack services' (joke!) or was there a previous unit that had vacated?

Aldershot. Home of the British Army. How appropriate for a shelter (home) name in the desert.

In the splendid colour photo above, did you see the K9? A Scammell Explorer too, poorly VOR'd armoured vehicles awaiting attention and two Bedford RLs, one of which appears to be a REME winch truck. What struck me too, was that the cabs of the RLs 'appear' to be a different colour to their bodies, or a different shade of Light Stone. Is it me?

Nice tents!

Well, to quote Sean "No one has bitten', I shall say the same about those ghibli-battered frame tent shelters that served as the REME workshops for 2RTR LAD in Wavell Barracks, Benghazi. I'm not though, able to tell you what the correct nomenclature/designation/name was for those structures (prior to damage :-))? Does anyone know? I hope they do and posts the answer so we can get out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania District.

To further aid you, a photo by John Empson REME.

Sean N said:

But - all the K9s irrespective of age have the late bonnet, typical of later contracts. Why? Did they have a habit of wrecking bonnets in Libya?

 

I wonder if the answer is this. In my experience with K9s they tend to build up underbonnet heat which vapourises the fuel, making them difficult to restart hot. OK, my experience is with modern not 1960s fuel, but I wonder if they found it to be a problem in the desert and either changed the bonnets of vehicles going out there, or specified hot climate vehicles with the vented bonnet which later made it to all production vehicles?

 

The master parts list has two bonnets listed, for WB and WD/D vehicles, but isn't clear on what the different vehicle or bonnet types are, and unhelpfully doesn't have drawings of the bonnet(s).

Wrecking bonnets? Lifting bonnets? No, take the bonnet off and sling it in the cargo body with the two spare tyres and the two camels who will be nonplussed! I suspect this K9 may have been abandoned? There looks to be a poorly Landrover too? Not too sure about the VRN on this one either! Ha Ha! It does though begin with an L for Libya, doesn't it? The stripe markings on the truck tail mean what, I wonder? Would you carry camels in your K9?

The photo is one that appeared in an auction house with no supporting information and I believe it shows an ex-British Military Mission/British Naval Mission vehicle sold off in an extreme hurry along with the 20+ fleet to Arab motor dealers in Tripoli on being booted out in a fit of pique by Gadhafi. The BMM went first, passing all their trucks and LRs to the BNM, leaving the Navy bods to dispose of everything, children's toys too, in hastily abandoned MQs/Hirings. I have the full account, though its for another time and place.

Regarding the reversed negative problem: if you have a reversed digital image, most photo programs will sort it easily. I open the photo in Microsoft office picture manager, then 'Picture', rotate and flip, flip horizontaly, save. Job done !

 

David

 

Sean, you beat me to it!

Thank you David! It was so simple all along and I had just not realised the full effect off those functions! Preview programme on the Mac does that too as I've just practiced and of course, my Photoshop does it too. :-)

You should be able to flip the image in Photoshop. Image > Rotate > Flip Horizontal.

 

 

I don't think the charger exhaust goes into the vehicle, just down the side.

 

Ford Anglia in the background.

Ford Anglia, yes. They appear on several more photos I have of those days in those places; I am sure Benghazi had a dealer then as well as one in Tripoli. NAAFI may well have been in the car dealership business there too, importing 'tax-free cars of your dreams' for service folk.

foot note the range of BG numbers given 01 BG 01 to 99 BG 46 where one contract for all types of AUSTIN K9s

if l did not make it clear

Thanks Wally. That's helped us a great deal. A real story to be told, behind every VRN.

Chorehorse exhaust appears to go into the vehicle?

Would that be because the negative is reversed? I find reversed negatives mind-boggling in trying to work out what I should really be seeing.

Negative is reversed, see Saladin silencer and div signs

Yes! Yes! Plus I thought that little generator was on the 'wrong' wing!

I must try to get the negative or transparency from Wilf's son or get him to correct it. Oddly enough, I've spotted more reversed images, even one or two I've put on here but I kept quiet about it! The only real clue would have been the District flash.

The cylinders lying on the rack are marked 'welding oxygen'. they are smaller diameter than the acetylene which are standing. I think it was acetylene that should not be laid down as it is liquid and a filling of kapok if I think back nearly 50 years when taught gas welding.

Very good! Just remember that if an acetylene cylinder falls over there is a chance that thermal dissociation will occur, unfettered breakdown of the gas in the cylinder (not the acetone into which the gas is dissolved) which generates heat, raises the pressure, generates more heat, generates more pressure until .......boom! Acetylene cylinders stopped having thermal plugs (to melt under fire or thermal dissociation conditions) and pressure relief devices years ago as there operation when required had proven unreliable. Move a cylinder that's got hot inside and .... boom! Think about the exclusion zones and gentle cooling processes the Emergency Services put in place under these circumstances.

There are some other gas cylinders that don't have pressure relief devices fitted, beware! Cylinders shouldn't be left or used horizontally either, if they roll or fall over, valves can shear and cylinders can rocket. Gas cylinders are safe in trained, competent hands and only in safe systems of work. Hmm, was that a digression? Yes. (Don't forget to get your flashback arrestors checked! Oh, you don't bother fitting them! :shocked: )