watercart

So far so good, but the system essentially runs off both high pressure and massive volume throughput of the air. The torpedo air pipes direct from the air flask are quite large compared with dive cylinders. I will have a look at the sectioned Mk.VIII and confirm what air pipe diameter it has. Getting ahead of ourselves a bit, but knowing the cubic inch displacement of the 8 cyl engine compared with the Mk.VIII's BBC 4 cylinder would give some idea of what increase in volume flow rate would be needed. If a Mk.VIII engine rates at 550HP and the 8 cyl rates at 800HP, then roughly 50% more air flow for the 8 cyl?

A very interesting engine. I wonder who made it? I had some dealings with Commonwealth service torpedoes pre 1990, but have never seen an 8 cylinder engine like Simon's. If it was made in the UK, I would be reasonably certain that it was not produced in any quantity. Another angle is that it may have been an example of a continental engine (1900-45?) recovered for tech intel purposes? Re nyloc nuts, can you discount that someone has not had a go at restoring it more recently? The engine sold by Prestons is a 4 cylinder radial Brotherhood burner cycle engine that went into service in the 21 inch Mk.8 (submarine) and Mk.9 (surface launched) torpedoes. The Prestons one in particular looks like a WW2 produced type that would have been in service until the late 1980s. Recently I had the job of sectioning a whole Mk.8 torpedo for a museum and read the manual that came with it. Some interesting specs: (1). The fuel is listed as "shale oil".(2) It carries about 250 pounds of compressed air at 3000 psi (3) Due to this air pressure and volume, the throttling effect would tend to ice up everything (like how a spray can goes cold when you hold the nozzle down for a long time). (4) They get around this by admitting a small quantity of burning fuel to the air to heat it up before it reaches the engine. (5) The preheated air and cylinder injected fuel then operates as a diesel exhausting into the crankcase and out the propeller shaft. (6) The pre-burn is started by three blank cartridges that are fired on launch. (7) If the ignition fails, the torpedo can still do about 22 knots just on air pressure for a few hundred yards. When the navy tested the engines on a dynomometer, they would routinely produce about 550 horsepower. Not bad for a tiny radial engine designed in 1926. All that said, the salient point is that you need about 3000 psi air boost to get that performance, so not especially convenient for a motorbike, etc. My reference to tech intel is base on a discovery made in Sydney a couple of years ago. In the mangrove swamps near an ex-ordnance depot, a large complex bronze casting was pulled out of the mud. No one had any idea what it was, but it was kept due to being old and mysterious. It turns out to be a Whitehead designed long stroke 2 cylinder engine from a Japanese submarine torpedo. This was a 21 inch type, but the fabled "Long Lance" Type 93 24 inch torpedo used the same design. BTW, while torpedo engines may seem a bit niche, torpedo gyros have been keenly collected for many years. They are amazing bits of precision kit and span about 120 years - from clockwork, compressed air to electrical methods of spinning them up. The Mk.8 torpedo uses a quick blast of the 3000 psi air supply to bring the rotor from standstill to about 30,000 rpm in a fraction of a second.

Hi Rob, I managed to do the rearranging so managed to get some photos of the completed gun outside the shed for the first time. It is the first pattern with updates to about 1912 standard. This is as the Gallipoli guns left Australia on their way to Egypt in Oct 1914. This particular gun is a MkI made by RGF in 1905. Those interested will notice many detail differences between this gun and those made from about 1914 onwards. Again, will do the final paint job on the gun before it goes out for display I hear that the ranks of the 18 Pr survivors is growing due to other restorations, which is a good thing. Look forward to seeing your pics, ATB Nick

Hi Rob, many thanks for the compliment. The gun is effectively complete, but is blocked in the shed by next project. I will try and do some re-arranging in next couple of days so I can drag the gun up to the limber for some photos. It will be a nice "shazzan" moment to have them back together for the first time in 80 years, all the best, Nick.

Tim, sorry for delay in responding as I have not had a chance to look at the forum for a while. Unfortunately I do not have any spares for the ammunition wagon (rear limber) brake system. I am looking for the axle attachments myself. That said, what I have may become available later. Attached is a photo of the gun limber with draught pole and pole support bar. I am still hunting for leather straps and a WW1 dated shovel in case there are any spares out there. Also looking for cartridge cases, projectiles, fuzes and the cruciform primer protector (aka shell base crosses). Methinks these will have to mainly come from Australia due to import grief. I hope to have some photos of the gun and limber together shortly. Footboards are varnished - I thought I would enjoy the woodgrain for a while before they are painted over. Colour is Service Colour mixed from original recipe in Artificers handbook. This is the prewar / early WW1 colour. It is more like the German Feldgrau than the later strong Brunswick greens etc. All the best, Damien Nicholas...

We used the 60 Pounder guns here after WW1. If the projectile fits reasonably snugly in the hole and it is 5 inches (127mm) in diameter, then 60 Pounder (Long Tom) is likely. I think one of my photos of the limbers rusting away in the creek bed is one of those. cheers, DN

I have a spare box from the hind ammo wagon. It is the same size as the box you are looking for, but it has one large rear door instead of the three smaller doors. Also have some of the sub-frame / chassis as well from the hind wagon I am selling off, but I would think it could be modified. It may be worth considering if you are prepared to build from scratch. If you intend building something exact, the number of rivets is pretty intimidating. Send me an email off line if you are interested and I can send some photos - the cost of freight between UK and Australia would be the main problem I think, cheers, DN

It is indeed the front section of the limbered ammunition wagon. It is in very good condition as most I have seen have rust outs where ever water has pooled in them. It will need the draught pole and the pole support bar as well as the wheels. There are also some leather pouches needed for the door lock keys and the fuze spanners. The draught poles and pole support bars are not too common now but if you have the metalwork, the wheelwright should be able to make them up. Picture shows the end of the pole that fits into the socket in the limber. The long hinges are for the folding draught pole that is stowed under the hind section of the ammo wagon. missing is the reinforcing for the other end of the pole that mounts the 'J' bolt. cheers, DN

Hi Rob, nice 18Pdr! Somewhat inspiring to get my Mk.IV sorted, but Australian Army has done a fine job of deactivating the cradle using C4. :cry: Any one out there who may have a spare? Unlikely, but you never know.... I have gathered a few trail, barrel and breech spares for these guns so trade may be an option cheers, DN

Lots of work ahead there! The two guns are a LFH98/09 and a Turkish Krupp 75mm. As a rule, keep a regular check on things immersed in molasses, as it has been known to eat higher carbon steels like rust. Springs and barrel steel are good to be careful with. DN

trawling through the Handbooks for 18Pr MkII and II PA (1940), MkIV / V (1931 & 1940), I can offer the following clarification. MkII gun limber for MkII gun (24 rounds) became the Trailer No.4. It was unmodified and was used only for horse. Mk.III gun limber for Mks IV & V gun (20 rounds) became the Trailer No.5. No sign it was modified for motorised traction. Mk.II ammo wagon limber for Mks II, IV, V gun (38 rounds) became the Trailer No.6 (horse drawn) Mk.II ammo wagon limber for Mks II, IV, V gun (38 rounds) was modified to become Trailer No.7 Mk.II ammo wagon limber for Mks II, IV, V gun (38 rounds) was modified to become Trailer No.8. The visible differences between Trailer No.7 and trailer No.8 are not discernible from the manual (no photos, only stores lists). Mk.II ammo wagon (hind) became Trailer No.9 Mk.II ammo wagon (hind) modified for mechanical traction became Trailer No.10 Mk.II ammo wagon limber for Mks II, IV, V gun (38 rounds) was modified to become Trailer No.29. Again, differences between this and trailers No.7 & No.8 are unknown, but No.29 clearly uses Martin Parry running gear. cheers, DN

Some more photos of limbers in Australia. The Birmingham plate is from an Ammo Wagon (hind) that is one of several in one collection. The gun limber in red primer is nearing completion. The limbers 'in the wild' are a small fraction of what was spread along a creek bed - I don't know if they are still there, cheers, DN

LBDR, looks like you have found what you wanted. For completeness, following photos of the Australian conversion of the hind ammo wagon into a limber are posted: Colour photo of the limber at Fort Lytton Museum. It would have been better if I could have gotten detail of the hook as well as the perch. Next 2 photos from AWM database showing full rig. The fact that the rear door is one piece shows it is a hind ammo wagon conversion. They have had to cut a piece out of the armour flap so that it fits over the later added hook, cheers, DN

Trevor, yes, the "hind" ammo wagon was upgraded by Australian army to become the gun limber by replacing wooden No.45 wheels with a sub-axle assembly mounting 20" rim truck wheels, and adding a towing hook. The brake lever and arms were removed. Will post a photo of that upgrade tonight my time, but it does not show the hook unfortunately. I have not seen any front ammo wagons or gun limbers upgraded to my knowledge. DN

Ross, Ray and Trevor, some images to clarify things. Firstly for Ross, the tyre size for the Martin Parry gear for the limber and gun is 7.50 - 24. The wheels are 6 stud Budd split rims. Tyres supplied from USA with the Martin Parry gear were US Royal brand. I have a spare set of Martin Parry gear, but quite corroded that is available. These were used on the US 3in Mk.VII Landing guns delivered to Australia in early stages of Pacific War. Here are some images of the limbers/wagons from the 1915 handbook. Len Trewin's book also deals with these in detail. You can see that the gun limber (official designations in the photos) is 3 tiers for 24 rounds. The ammo wagon limber looks similar to the gun limber, but has 4 tiers and split rear doors. The ammunition wagon I refer to as the "hind" is also 4 tiers but has a single door and the tubular perch or towbar. Rays is the middle 2 images. cheers. DN

Hello LBDR and Ray, just so happens that I am doing an 18Pr restoration in Sydney. So far have the gun, gun limber and hind ammo wagon - just need the front ammo wagon of the type found by Ray to complete the set. In the bits and pieces accumulated over the past 10 years, I have some spares of some of the items for sale/swap. I am pretty sure that a spare hind ammo wagon is amongst them, as converted to pneumatic wheels (unfortunately no axle, only the cast supports). That may be of interest to LBDR and others, but the type shown in the photo posted by LBDR looks like a front ammo wagon with wooden draw bar replaced by a steel perch and stay bars. Australia used the rear ammo wagon as it had the steel perch already, and did not need much upgrading. An example is at the Lytton museum in Brisbane. Other hind ammo wagons were also used behind infantry support tanks in PNG to carry small arms ammo in the advance. The WW1 gun limbers and front ammo wagons were not used in Australia in WW2. The difference between the gun limber and ammo wagons is that gun limber used 3 tiers and ammo wagon used 4, so is noticeably higher. regards, Damien Nicholas aka Nick

Thanks Rick, yes there is pain when bits are missing. Usually the only thing to do is remanufacture. Just as well we are in it for the love not money, cheers,Nick

Thankyou Shane

Yes Richard, I'm in Australia, but have not attended the Corowa meet due to work commitments. I am looking forward to displaying some of the artillery there during the Centenary years. Most of my stuff tends to be horse drawn, and I and not have the room for either horses or towing vehicles other than limbers. Nevertheless, I am always interested in having a look at the engineering of other people's trucks and tanks. Regret nothing in the Ford line other than brake assemblies on the short 25Pdrs. Thanks for the link, cheers, Nick

Hello, pleased to meet you all. I am a collector in the Antipodes mainly interested in WW1 and WW2 artillery. What has caught my attention in the HMVF forum is a search for info in WW1 watercarts, hence the name. Maybe I should have picked something 18 pounder related? An 18 pounder restoration is my main project underway at the moment, but I have all of the main bits of a WW1 British army watercart needing to go back together (tank, pump, tank cradle, securing bands, wheels and axle - only the wood bits needed). The drawings and photos included in the posts look like they are just what I need to get this project underway. Although the Furphy watercart is an Australian icon from earlier in WW1, the standard military pattern deserves a little more attention down here. As for 18 pounder, I am most of the way through a restoration of an early production gun. I am aiming to get this gun with gun limber and limbered ammo wagon displayable before the most solemn anniversary in August 2014 is upon us. As with many of you, I have many other projects in various stages of completion, and many spares bits left over that may be of interest to you in completing your projects too. After may years in acquisition mode, I have lots of shed space occupied by bits and pieces that will never be completed, so trading them on to where they are needed, and freeing up shed space for work and display will be a win-win. I wish I had known about HMVF earlier! all the best, Nick