julezee001

I think the unladen weight varies a bit depending on whether it's an early gun tractor, or later cargo. I think they are all around 11.5 to 12.5 tons unladen, My own had a gross weight of 22500kg initially, but had the paperwork was changed as an HGV to 21500kg to help the issues with the brakes.

It's unladen weight is around 12500kg which is probably on the higher end, as it has an Atlas crane fitted. It currently runs around at about 16500kg with the box body on the back with camping gear, tools, and odds and ends on board, as a motorhome.

Jules

The main thing to watch out for is that the truck was built pre 1960. There were at least 2 batches built in 1964, from which I own one. This not only creates the issue of needing an M.O.T. test of one type or another, but also means the driver needs an HGV licence too. Whilst most people considering buying a beautiful piece of British engineering such as the Militant will be more than aware of the issues, I'm sure others jump in blinded by the opportunity of owning and driving such a large chunk of mobile Heritage!

I have posted the fun I've had getting through tests in detail elsewhere on the Forum, with most of the issues being with the brakes which were never designed to be tested on a rolling brake tester. Fortunately I seem to have persuaded the local testers to use a Tapley meter on the old girl these days!

Good luck, I hope you find and enjoy a great truck!

Jules

 

I cant comment regarding the driving license issue.

 

But here in Kent, the DVLA are taking a hard line on driving unregisteredvehicles on the road.

 

They insist that the vehicle is trailered to the MOT Station to obtain its ticket and is also trailered to the local DVLA office for its inspection prior to giving an age related/new number etc.

 

see the attached notes which came with the numberplate application paperwork.[ATTACH=CONFIG]70891[/ATTACH]

I phoned them on the issue and was informed that if caught on the highway while obtaining the MOT or traveling to or from the vehicle inspection, they would request the police to prosecute and also cancel all applications without a refund offees!

If you read the notes, they are refering to taking it to be inspected by the DVLA at an LVLO, or approved site, not driving to an M.O.T.

Almost daily I drive cars to, and occasionally from, a garage with no M.O.T. test which is totally legal. As far as I know for transfer of number plates both vehicles require a current M.O.T., so I can't think of a reason to take a vehicle to the DVLA without a valid certificate.

When my brother first registered our Militant, he had to test it first, then drive it un-registered into the LVLO close to the centre of Brighton. No problems apart from blowing a coolant pipe on the way back!

Jules

Show moving site just comes down to go or don't go - nothing is compulsory. Rex and all the helpers did wonders last year with the show considering the weather as don't know of any other shows that would of carried on. With the show move it would a great opportunity to start a fresh to clamp down on the amount of civilian stuff parked in with the military displays -sort of scares public away from viewing vehicles as it looks like the caravan club not a welcoming display and also ideal chance to stop the rope off gangs from arriving early and dictating the show field . Martin

I agree to some extent that Civi vehicles don't look good, but it's not too difficult to cam them up or tuck them away on a display. partly it depends on peoples budgets? Not everyone can afford a living van, or genuine Military tent, etc. I would say if you just want green/camo then join the Army, but even that doesn't hold true. Trust me I know!

As to roping off areas... Usually groups who have attended the show many times rope off areas early to fit all their vehicles and tents on. It is after all often more about the social aspect for many, than the "look at my vehicle" side. Not only does this often have a practical side, share a large tent, generator, cooker etc, but also a safety side too if heavy armour is moving onto and off a pitch. There are obviously several larger clubs who enjoy being grouped together and partying late into the night, would they come back if they were splintered into small groups around the site? Obviously there are some who do rope off ridiculous areas, and maybe there are some who just change plans and don't turn up, but at W & P it's never spoilt the show, and I've never gone home 'cos I couldn't park my trucks??

Jules

Hmm... Just worked out the route on a route planner. An extra 3 miles each way if we use the lanes, so not the end of the world for us. An unexpected change, but I look forward to it. I'm sure there will be some upsides to it as well as some downsides. At the end of the day the people who really make the show are those who bring their vehicles, or take part in so many other of the great displays put on. Most of the rest of it, bars, food, stalls, toilets (don't start on them!), the public, etc, you get at any show.

Jules

Lee posted this quote in answer to similar question a long time ago.

 

 

There is sometimes confusion, even within the MOT trade, over the type of MOT test that motorhomes are subject to. Motorhomes are registered with the body type 'motor caravan', in the past this description was applied quite loosely but recently the DVLA and VOSA have been more rigid in aplying the regulations. In fact anyone registering a change of vehicle type after carrying out a conversion, or registering an imported motorhome, is likely to be required to have the vehicle checked at a VOSA Testing Station before DVLA will issue a new registration document.

 

Motor caravans are subject to an annual Class 4 MOT test from 3 years old, however we heard that some larger motorhomes with garages were being classed at 'living vans' by MOT testing stations. This has potentialy serious implications, as you will see below.

 

We asked VOSA about the regulations that apply to motorhomes, as far as the MOT test is concerned. This was their reply:

 

"A 'motor caravan' is "a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is

constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and

which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which

are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living

accommodation for its users". Motor caravans are not classed as goods

vehicles for MOT test purposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending

on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight.

A 'living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which

is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also

used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". 'Living

vans' are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are

therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are

subject to HGV plating and testing.

A 'living van' up to 3000kg dgw (Design Gross Weight) would require a class IV

test, and the first MOT would be due on the third anniversary of first

registration.

'Living vans' over 3000kg and up to 3500kg dgw require a class

VII test and would require an MOT when the vehicle is 1 year old.

(NB This statement was later corrected - see below)

If the 'living van' is over this weight then it would be a HGV MOT test that the

vehicle would require and this also would be due when the vehicle is 1 year

old. "

We then asked about their definition of 'living van' and the phrase:

"... used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle."

When we asked about carrying a small car or motor cycle in a motorhome we had this reply:

"A small car or motorcycle would be classed as goods as it is not needed by

such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence. When it

states "for the purpose of their residence" it refers more to things that

are necessary for the vehicle to be lived in, e.g, cooker, refridgerator,

beds, etc."

So it seemed that a motorhome adapted to carry a motorbike or scooter could be classed as a 'living van'. If so it would be regarded as a goods vehicle and, if over 3500kg GVW it would be subject to a HGV MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW.

We regarded this as patently ridiculous and asked where the line is drawn between possessions that may be carried for this purpose, and those that VOSA deems to be 'goods'. One assumes that a motorhome owner may carry some personal possessions 'for the purpose of their residence', eg clothes and food!

The matter was then referred to the Department for Transport, who replied as follows:

"LIVING VANS

 

I refer to your follow-up e-mail message of 18th October to colleagues in the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) which has been forwarded to me at the Department for Transport as we have responsibility for the legislation governing roadworthiness testing.

 

First of all, I should mention that there was a slight error in the second message that you received from the enquiry team at VOSA. To clarify, vehicles which require a class VII MOT test (goods vehicles between 3000 and 3500kgs design gross weight (DGW)) are only required to undergo a first MOT three years after the vehicle was first registered and not from the first year following registration as stated in the e-mails from VOSA. I’m sorry if this has caused confusion.

 

To clarify further, I can confirm that all living vans are regarded as goods vehicles. This is because such vehicles are used primarily for living accommodation but are also able to carry goods which are not needed for the purpose of residence in the vehicle. Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines ‘goods’ as ‘goods or burden of any description’. As such, ‘goods’ is not a term restricted solely to items carried for gain or reward. It is our view, therefore, that bikes or cars carried in a designated area on a vehicle should be regarded as goods and that vehicles which have the capacity to carry such items within them have to be regarded as living vans and not motor caravans.

 

Smaller living vans (under 3,500kgs) can be MOT tested as Class IV or Class VII vehicles depending on their weight. The first MOT test would be required from the third year following registration and then every year thereafter. However, many living vans are outside the scope of MOT testing as they exceed 3,500kgs in weight. These heavier living vans should be tested at a VOSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Such vehicles must be tested annually from the first year following registration.

 

I hope this clarifies the position. "

 

We didn't think that clarifed the position at all and we asked a series of further questions, in particular concerning the properties of a 'designated area' which determine whether the motorhome is classed as a 'living van' or not.

We received a further reply from the DfT:

 

[Letter dated 17/11/06]

Following your further e mail of 1st November I have discussed these, matters further with colleagues in other parts of the DfT.

One point we thought should be clarified is that different legislation governs the requirements for the registration of vehicles with the DVLA from the roadworthiness testing of vehicles under schemes managed by VOSA. This is why the definitions used for vehicles vary according to whether we are talking about the registration or the testing of a vehicle. Whichever way DVLA classify motor caravans has no bearing on the matter of the testing of the vehicles since the term "motor caravan" is defined in the 1981 Motor Vehicle Tests Regulations [page ref 7998/210/3 ] which governs the roadworthiness testing of vehicles.

We take your point that a "living van" looks just like a motor caravan but the important difference is that it is used to carry goods and is therefore classified as a goods vehicle. The consequence is that if the living van is above 3500kg gross vehicle weight it falls under the goods vehicle plating & testing regime and will need to have an annual roadworthiness test, once the vehicle is a year old, carried out at a VOSA test site.

The view of my colleagues is that whether a motorhome has a locker of a particular size is not really relevant to this issue because all motorhomes have room that could be utilised to carry goods. The question is whether or not the vehicles are used for carrying goods rather than items that are needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle. It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put. If the owner tells the test station that the vehicle is a motorhome and has it tested as such and then subsequently a Police check reveals that the vehicle is being used to carry goods then it would seem to us that an offence would have been committed.

However, the interpretation of what constitutes an offence is of course down to the Police and then ultimately the courts to determine. In our replies to you we have tried to indicate what we thought the intention was in introducing the legislation. In fact though we have no remit to say what effect the legislation, as drafted, actually has - or indeed whether or not an offence is actually committed under the different scenarios you have described. Our main function needs to be limited to pointing people to the relevant sections of the legislation.

We have not seen any evidence that there is a problem at present with people having motorhomes which they then use to carry goods and are subsequently prosecuted on that basis. So perhaps your interpretation of "goods" as being "items not in the possession of the vehicle occupant" is closer to the way that the enforcement authorities are currently choosing to interpret the carriage of mopeds and bikes owned by the drivers of motorhomes.

However if you are aware that there have been cases of the Police prosecuting any of your members for carrying items which the Police deem to be goods and therefore require the vehicle to be tested as a class VII vehicle or even a goods vehicle required to be tested under the plating and testing regime then certainly you could put a warning on your website to cover the issues that have been raised in your correspondence with us.

You did mention in one of your earlier e mail messages that some people would be carrying a small car from their large motorhomes. It really is quite difficult for us to see how the definition of items "needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle" could be stretched to include small cars. Nevertheless interpretation by the enforcement authorities is a matter of both fact and degree and we can offer no further advice on the specific point of what would or would not be treated as "goods".

To amend the definitions in legislation, as you have suggested, may seem straightforward to you but would in fact require changes to primary legislation and there are no plans to do this. Partly this is due to the other priorities that exist with a busy Parliamentary schedule, but in any case there appears at this stage to be no evidence that the Police have found a problem with people having vehicles tested as motorhomes which are really being used to carry goods. It would therefore be difficult to justify the need for these changes which would inevitably be time consuming and costly.

To conclude we would suggest that the best advice to give your members is that if they are carrying goods on a vehicle that is over 3.5 tonnes it is very likely to need a goods vehicle test carried out annually at a VOSA test station once the vehicle is a year old. Beyond that if you need advice on the effect of carrying a small car or any other specific items we suggest that you seek independent legal advice.

Well, in our view the statements contained in that letter indicate a shift in the aplication of the term 'Living Van' to motorhomes. It now seems that it is up to the motorhome owner to declare to the Testing Station whether their vehicle is used to carry goods. If a declaration is made that goods are not carried, then the vehicle will be accepted as a motorhome and be subject to a Class IV test every year from 3 years old.

I would like to express our thanks to Rob Haggar, from the Department for Transport, for his time and patience in responding to our questions.

(Last updated 17/11/06) </H3> Household Cavalry Pageant & TA100 Pageant Fox CVR(W) Driver

IMPS Member

 

1942 Austin K2/Y NFS ATV

I love the way the people who are responsible for defining the Legislation are so vague about its implementation when questioned. I think I'd argue that a small car or motorbike would be a sensible option to carry or tow with a large motorhome as they are far easier to manouver and environmentally friendly, than taking the motorhome (in my case Militant Mk1) to do the days shopping at Asda! Personally I try to take the Scammell Explorer as it's got the air assisted steering!

The tester at the local VOSA station did want to look in the back of my Militant to check that it had a sink, bed, fridge and cooker fitted when I said it was a motorhome. The camping kit , 2 army 18' x 24' tents, did phase him a bit, but I assured him they were essential equipment, and he agreed. The last tester didn't even ask to look in the back, or question testing the Militant as a heavy class 4 (motorhome) other than saying it was ridiculous!

Jules

A couple of Stalwarts in Aden in around 1964.

Just a few photos of Saladins kindly provided by ex REME Recovery Mechanic Ron Stephenson. All are in Aden in around 1964.

Just a few photos of Bedford RL's kindly given to me by ex REME Recovery Mechanic Ron Stephenson. All are from around 1964, and feature vehicles in Aden. Enjoy!!

Here a few photo's I was very kindly given by ex REME Recovery Mechanic Ron Stephenson. They are all from around 1964, and are from Aden. Enjoy!!

Here's a selection of photo's very kindly given to me by ex-REME Recovery Mechanic Ron Stephenson. They are all from around 1964 in Aden, and I think show the Explorer's how they really were used in service, i.e; doors off, front wings removed, and even extra weights mounted on the front. Enjoy!!!

I was very kindly given a great selection of photos to post by a retired REME Recovery Mechanic. All the photos are from Aden in around 1964, amongst them are these photos of a Berliet wrecker in British Army service. I've no idea how many were used?

The "Blow it all over when it's finished" intention is great. That's what I hoped to do with mine, but I'll have to patch up the cab roof, replace the rear floor, finish the bins, repair the downpipe (again!), fix the radiator, and........

It won't matter if you don't go right over it. The grin factor driving down the road, both for you, and anyone who you're sharing the local area with, will be totally unaffected by slightly different shades of DBG!

Jules

Looking great, and oh so SHINY! What I find scary is that the painting you have just done looks brighter DBG than your older paintwork. What is it about DBG that makes it do that? Your truck is even under cover. At least she's gloss so you can T-cut the colour if you need to.

I shall be there Friday evening with the Militant and Scammell, tea, coffee, beer, wine, and maybe some food!

Hoping for good weather, good company and a relaxing show.

Anyone else going?

Jules

I had the usual fun, and enjoyed the War and Peace show. The mud's great as it proves you can drift a Scammell. The Twickenham Off-Roaders did a good job this year on the heavy truck trials, with nothing bent!......... Except that when I got home I found my radiator is now leaking. Doh!

It appears to be from a cooling pipe 6 or 7 in from the drivers side, in the second row back, at the bottom of course. My main question, is how are the pipes fitted/sealed? I think they are copper, while the bottom plate is aluminium, an odd combination?

I'm thinking of using chemical metal for now, as I'm not keen to strip it down at the moment, but I'm open to any better suggestions!

Jules

Depends on what the 110 has on the log book, a county station wagon no problem a UTILITY, regadless of body , you can't go in unless you pay. Go figure, it's a real *** fo the likes of me who go in and out of the zone in two hundred yard increnments.

I'm not sure it's quite that simple!

Pre 1973 are Exempt, so my 1954 Scammell and 1964 Militant can go in and out as often as I can afford!

As I understand it (although I'm more than willing to be corrected by anyone with greater direct experience!):

If it's your first incursion and your vehicle is not exempt, you should get a letter informing you that you can come in and out for the following 30 days without penalty, then it needs to gain exemption, pay the daily charge, or not return!

If it's a station wagon up to 9 seats you are ok as it counts as an estate, if more it might be considered to be a minibus, and be subject to the LEZ.

If it's diesel and a pick up it's commercial in their eyes and that's that.

However if it is a hard top diesel, with windows in the side, built between 1973, and 1998, with a seat or two fitted in the back, it counts as an estate, and can be registered with the LEZ. The process is slightly hidden on their website, but essentially involves writing a covering letter, along with 6 photos, including one of the rear inside through an open rear door??

I have to say a friends first attempt with his 3 door full length hard top, with windows was rejected on the basis that it was a crew cab!! He has pursued his case, and gained the exemption since.

Jules

It us-est to be with the old Triangle brake testers at the Testing stations, tester could counter rotate the the wheels to overcome the linked double drive. This would enable each wheel to be tested holding the prop shaft in neutral.

 

I think I went into this in various posts over the last few years, but essentially you are right it can be tested as an HGV, in which case both the footbrake, and handbrake can be tested by counter-rotating all the wheels on the rear axles, and recording the maximum efforts. However it in it's current configuration, it's a motorhome (heavy class4), and as such the imbalance throughout the braking range needs to be compared, which means rolling both wheels on an axle forward at the same time. This isn't possible on the Militant and some other older vehicles, hence the Tapley test is used.

 

Last year it took a call to VOSA testing policy unit to get a definite answer, which the tester grudgingly accepted, and finally agreed to test the Militant, having initially refused to test it!

 

They stated that: a tester can't refuse to test a vehicle; can't ask for parts to be removed to make their job easier ( it was suggested I turned up early and remove my rear propshaft between the axles!); the vehicle must be tested as presented; and as my Militant carried neither goods, nor passengers, a Tapley test is fine!

 

Jules

glad to hear you got it through an MOT again Jules! What did they do for a brake test?

I expained the dramas I've had with VOSA to the tester, and he thought about trying a roller test, but I managed to talk him out of it. So it was a Tapley test again, this time in a yard which made the Hastings test station seem huge! I didn't have the time to look at how fast I was going when ordered to jam on the anchors, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 10 mph, both for the footbrake, and the handbrake! He passed it anyway, and then went to change his underwear!

Jules

Here's a photo of JSK798 stopped for fuel en route from Yorkshire to the NW Midlands today. First time I had driven it. I did not find the gearbox especially easy to manage.

Glad to see someone else enjoying the agony and the ecstasy of owning and driving a Mk1 Militant. (Agony pictured!)

I had a run out to Eastbourne in mine today for an M.O.T. test at a local Mercedes dealership as VOSA were too busy in Hastings. All went well until a fault was found in the o/s rear axle tyre. So a quick (1 hour) wheel swap, and it was through for another year!

Jules

Looking great. There's nothing more satisfying than actually bolting parts back on when they're all done. Well apart from driving down the road, but you just drive everyone else's anyway!

Just a bit more to go then? I'll have to pull my finger out and get on with my project to catch up! Reality is that life's a bit busy in every respect, so she'll sit outside for a bit longer awaiting lots of TLC!

Jules

Mmm! Dorking Models a mecca for me in my childhood, for the model railway bits and pieces, but especially the 1/76 scale kits of the King Tigers, and other German WW2 kit. I used to spend ages choosing. I don't attach blame for the toys getting Bigger and BIGGER over the years!

Welcome Tony,

Jules

Just wondered if anyone else from the forum was planning to take part or watch this event? I don't have the full details, but believe it starts in Sevenoaks at around 9am and ends with a show of the vehicles taking part, around lunchtime, at the Stade on Hastings seafront. I hope to get to the show with at least with one of my trucks.

Jules

I'd love to take my Mk 1 Militant to this show being the Centenary, but at 184 miles each way, that makes it almost £400 in fuel alone. Ouch! Hopefully I'll win the lottery this weekend to make it a really easy choice.

Jules

when my militant electrics were sorted out, by an Ex Reme guy, he insisted that he modified the connection block on the cab seat, and put all the wires into a rubber junction box. He told me that when in the army, he was always being called to militants where some 'clumsy fff'ing squaddie' had knocked all the wires out by standing on them etc.

I'm not sure if mine has a later modification, but it has a good metal shield around the connectors behind the seat, making it hard enough to deliberately unplug them, let alone "accidentally" knock one out!!

Jules