Enfield1940

Here's my one. I believe they were intended for compasses.

Otherwise they are a bit mysterious: were they a part of the late 1970's trials nylon '58 set? Were they a trials item for the standard '58 set? etc.

I’ve seen Racal field telephone carrying bags that look like they’re made from similar materials, so that might be a clue. However, three years on and I still don’t know what it’s for.

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. Hopefully a copy of the VAOS is waiting somewhere to be digitised.

I've also spent some time bashing Google for pictures of postwar painted HSAT, HSRAC and HSDR helmets (yes, I probably need to get out more...) and get the impression that 'textured olive drab, matt' is a general guideline. The texturing seems to vary greatly in terms of density and the size of the texturing medium. 

Perhaps the missing VAOS would say something along the lines of 'XYZ types of powder can be used to add texture' and it doesn't specify how much to use?

Thanks. Two votes for Olive Drab then. The paint above doesn't look high gloss, so that may rule out DBG.

I don't suppose there's any mention of how the texturing was achieved? The texturing medium in the paint on the exterior of my service brown HSRAC helmet looks slightly too fine to be sand. Possibly Aluminium Oxide powder?

Thanks,

Mark

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. The paint on the helmet above looks too green to me to be Olive Drab, but I need to see it in the flesh + it looks like there's several layers of paint.

I also own an example of the postwar HSRAC helmet, which is painted in Service Brown and doesn't have any sign of previous paint jobs. The exterior is textured and the interior is smooth. Unfortunately it's undated.

Cheers,

Mark

Some pictures:

A more complete example of a ROC 1955 made helmet:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/helmets/post-war-parachutists-helmet-126625/

Is it Deep Bronze Green over red oxide primer?

Would I be right in thinking that the original factory paint colour of a 1955 dated HSAT helmet would have been Deep Bronze Green?

I ask as I’ve just bought an empty shell I’m intending to restore. I don’t have it in hand yet, but going by the pictures I’ve seen it seems to acquired various layers of paint at different times. E.g the interior is black.

Thanks,

Mark

FYI. The projectile is a postwar French 75mm POT Mle 51 - as fired by the AMX-13 tank. Unfortunately the cartridge case is wrong - the correct one is bigger. There's an illustration of a complete round here:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/378060-could-a-panther-shoot-amx-13-shells/

Another item to look out for...😏

Are there any contemporary pictures of Mk2 P58 being trialled with the eyeletted version of the belt?

Interesting. I didn’t realise there were variations of the ammo pouches. I think all the ones that have passed through my hands have had the ‘uncornered’ flaps.

Perhaps the ones with corners are a later variation as they are closer to the 1990 issue ones?

PS. Since taking the pics above in 2014 I have improved the set with a correct water bottle pouch. That just leaves the respirator haversack and the bergan.

Four years later... I have finally tracked down an example of the highly elusive right hand utility pouch. If you collect 1985 trials PLCE, you've probably noticed that most of them are left hand ones.

After some pondering, I have come up with a theory to explain this: Presumably the standard layout was two magazine pouches at the front and one utility pouch left rear and one water bottle pouch right rear. However, you might have a need to have a more versatile utility pouch at the front (and perhaps fewer magazines), so move the utility pouch to the front and - as it is worn on the left- equip it with left hand yoke attachment loops. Presumably there were rarer occasions where you might need two utility pouches at the front, so you would need one with right hand yoke attachment loops. There was less need for these = fewer were made. Water bottle pouches were never worn at the front, so they don't need yoke attachment loops.

Hopefully the above ramblings make some sort of sense... I note the later 1990 PLCE utility pouches also had yoke attachment loops, but they weren't 'handed'.

A long overdue update...

My final judgement was that the helmet had originally been painted in smooth Khaki Green No.3 - partly inspired by the following 1939 and 1940 dated examples by the same maker:

https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2015/05/24/mkii-steel-helmet/

http://www.warstuff.com/Original-WWII-1940-FL-Mk2-BRITISH-Combat-Helmet-i927.htm

Mike Starmer has published a relatively simple homebrew recipe for KG3 = five parts Humbrol 155 Olive Drab Matt to one part Humbrol 10 Service Brown Gloss. I made some up and here is the end result.

It's an interesting colour - subtlely different to ordinary olive green. It can look quite brown in low light levels. The tendency for original KG3 to fade towards more of a brown colour has been discussed on here before:

Cheers,

Mark

On 1/30/2018 at 3:48 PM, SimonLMoore said:

Forgive my ignorance but which system is the '75 pattern? I'm aware of what many call '72 pattern but not '75 pattern, could anyone give me a description or share a photo? It's possible I know it but by a different, incorrect name!

Aren't they the same thing? I was under the impression that '1972 Pattern' is a collectorism for the early 70's butyl trials webbing which was referred to as '1975 PLCE' in contemporary documents. It would be interesting to see a copy of the original guide / handbook / descriptive document produced when it was trialled. Ditto Mk2 P58.

Very nice. Trials 1958 Pattern must be one of the rarest webbing sets out there. Does anyone have any other components?

I acquired an identical belt last year. Somewhat of an oddity as why would they be making Mk2 P58 belts in 1995? I discussed it with the chap who does Karkeeweb, but he didn't really know either. I have a feeling they are something to do with the 'WAIST BELT LARGE, 58 PATTERN & / OR  WORKING DRESS' introduced at around the same time.

Hi,

I'm considering restoring this 1940 dated MkII helmet that has been attacked with silver paint. I've photographed what appears to be the original paint in the interior, which is a yellowish/greenish brown colour.

Could anyone confirm or deny my hypothesis that this is faded Khaki Green No.3 paint? I've read elsewhere that this is the sort of colour it goes when the green pigment fades.

Thanks,

Mark

FYI. The controls on so-called 'defectively deactivated' weapons come into force on 2nd May:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/399/pdfs/uksi_20170399_en.pdf (page 2)

A further update from Steven Kendrick of the DGCA:

"So this has now been enacted, section 128 is the bit that deals with

deactivated firearms:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/section/128/enacted

If you read through that it's not entirely clear what it means. Subsection

4© effectively makes it an offence to transfer a deac that isn't done to

the current spec., and by "current spec." I mean the June 13th, 2016 Home

Office spec. This is a different spec. to the April 2016 spec., which is

the EU spec. So taken as a whole, what it basically says is, it's illegal

to sell or gift a deactivated firearm inside the EU, unless it's done to the

current British spec.

Which makes no sense, because the British spec. is not the EU spec. They're

similar but there are differences.

The Home Office have attempted to give me clarification and their

clarification is very vague. What they appear to be saying is this: if the

UK leaves the EU, then the section becomes meaningless, because then all

transfers would be outside the EU and thus the section doesn't apply. If

the UK stays in the EU, they're going to try and get the European Commission

to adopt the current UK spec. and thus the two specifications will be the

same, and then they're going to apply for the earlier 2010 spec. to also be

recognised as sufficient so those can be transferred as well.

The reason they're being vague in my opinion is because (a) they came up

with their spec. prior to the referendum thus this whole thing has gotten

muddled as they didn't expect a "leave" vote and (b) they don't want to

admit they now have a contingency plan for either event.

What is noticeable to me is they appear to have no intention of applying for

any spec. prior to 2010 to be recognised as sufficient. But that only

matters if the UK stays in the EU.

Anyway the key point is that up until the UK leaving the EU, it's illegal to

sell or gift any deactivated firearm unless it's done to the current spec. -

once the section comes into force and the Home Office tells me that will be

in "the next couple of months" (but it's already illegal under European law

if the deac. is prior to April 2016). Note they've made it into an

indictable offence, so you can get 5 years in prison for violating it,

unlike with realistic imitation firearms where the maximum penalty is only

51 weeks".

Unfortunately the UK news is less good than the EU news. Here's a couple of recent newsletters from Steven Kendrick of the DGCA:

27/01/2017:

"Barring some minor last minute fiddling, this is going to be the text of the

amendments to the Firearms Directive:

http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-14974-2016-INIT/en/pdf

It's passed out of committee so at this point only amendments on the floor

of Parliament can be made and they would have to be minor to get approval

from the Council and the Commission. It will become law sometime in April

and then it has to be transposed into national legislation within 15 months.

From the perspective of collectors of deactivated firearms, these are the

practical implications:

The acquisition of magazines that are intended for use with a centrefire

semi-automatic firearm that hold more than 20 rounds or 10 rounds in the

case of a centrefire semi-automatic "long firearm" (more than 60cm in OAL)

is prohibited - this means you can keep them but you can't buy them.

However if you've got an FAC and you've got authority for a Category B

firearm (e.g. handgun, self-loading rifle/shotgun) that authority will be

withdrawn if you're found in possession of such a magazine (unless you get

authorisation on your FAC for the magazine, which is possible). So in other

words, if you're unlicenced and you've got an AK-47, AR-15, etc. magazine

you can keep them but you can't buy them unless they've been knackered

first, e.g. by permanently pinning the capacity or removing one of the feed

lips.

Any deac deactivated before April 8th, 2016 is banned from "being placed on

the market", which essentially means any form of transfer except possibly by

bequest. There is a procedure whereby member states can apply to have older

standards recognised as sufficient, best guess is that the Home Office will

apply for equivalency for the post-95 standard, however I can't see them

doing it for pre-95 deacs. So with the pre-95 deacs, you can keep them, but

you can't sell them unless you have them redone to the 2016 standard, or

you're able to export it outside of the EU (which includes Norway, Iceland

and Switzerland for the purposes of this Directive). Only EU member states

and a few other countries can apply for recognition, so if you've got say, a

Russian spec deac, that's basically banned from transfer as well unless you

get it redone to the new 2016 standard.

They have said they will revisit the 2016 standard to make sure it is

workable due to "technical issues". On the positive side, once the

Directive is implemented, I can't see how they can stop EU/Schengen-wide

trade in deacs anymore. So they may be more knackered, but you'll have more

choice. At least until Brexit, lol.

Worst of all (yes it gets worse), deacs have been put into Category C of the

directive, i.e. "subject to declaration". What that will lead to I have no

idea, but some sort of registration with the local police at a minimum. So

if you're thinking "how will they know if I sell a pre-95 deac to someone",

the answer is they will know, because you will be legally required to notify

the police".

And:

31/01/2017

"I had various responses to the last e-mail I sent out so for the sake of

clarification, here is the actual explanatory text from the European

Parliament:

"In order to strengthen deactivation regimes, the European Commission

introduced a new deactivation regulation which came into force in April

2016. This sets a single standard for deactivation of firearms. However,

technical implementation issues have arisen and some countries were

concerned that the new standard would be less secure than their previous

national regimes. Following pressure from Parliament, the European

Commission has now re-convened a working group of experts from the EU member

states to review the regulation. The Commission has pledged that a revision

will be completed by early 2017.

"The introduction of the deactivation regulation caused problems for

legitimate holders of deactivated firearms such as historical re-enactors

and those involved in film making etc, as it prohibits them from selling or

transferring across borders any items deactivated prior to April 2016 unless

the items are re-deactivated to the new standard, which is not technically

possible in many cases. Following pressure from Parliament there will now

be a process to assess national standards in use prior to April 2016. If

the standards are accepted by the working group and Commission as

equivalent, then items deactivated to that previous regime will be able to

be bought, sold and transferred without requiring further modification",

explained Vicky Ford (ECR, UK).

The Commission proposed that all deactivated firearms would become subject

to the same registration and authorisation procedures as firearms. This was

rejected by the co-legislators. Instead the negotiators agreed that newly

deactivated firearms should be categorised in Category C and need to be

declared to national authorities but will not require an authorisation or

licence. This will not apply to existing deactivated firearms."

Okay so that makes it all sound clear, but there are some problems with it.

First problem is that the actual text of the amended Directive is vague on

the grandfather clause that is mentioned, it says essentially every

deactivation done to the new regulation has to be declared to the

authorities and then goes on to say member states can apply for their older

specifications to be recognised as "equivalent". So if the application is

granted, it's not clear on whether they then become retroactively subject to

declaration.

Second and more important problem is that in the House of Lords, the Home

Office have fiddled with the amendments to the Firearms Act in the Policing

and Crime Bill - before it said everything had to be done to the new EU spec

to be legal to sell, it now says that the British specifications that "apply

at the time" are the ones that matter. Part of this is because the current

UK spec is not exactly the same as the EU spec, but it's also because the HO

guidance on various things to do with deacs has weak legal underpinnings so

they want the law changed (also because of Brexit but that's not as big of a

reason as the HO is making it out to be). My opinion is that the UK won't

bother to seek to have the older specs recognised as equivalent to the EU

spec because there's no point - under the Firearms Act as amended you would

have to update your deac to the latest specification in order to be able to

sell or gift it anyway. And thus it would have to be declared to the

authorities.

I wouldn't panic too much about this "declaration" bit, they're not talking

about licencing, it's likely to be some sort of simple form/letter/e-mail

you send into the local police.

But unfortunately, anything pre-April 2016 has been effectively rendered

worthless unless you update it to the latest spec or export it outside of

the EU/Schengen area. Even if the Home Office applies for EU equivalency

for pre-95 deacs (unlikely), the amendments to UK law that they have written

mean you've got to deactivate it again in order to sell it. And then,

theoretically they could move the goalposts again arbitrarily at some point

in the future and render the gun worthless again. (And it's too late to

rush out to sell off your older deacs now, the EU regulations from last year

are already in force).

Just be aware of who is screwing you over here, the EU has provided a

convoluted way to transfer your older spec deacs, the Home Office however

has prevented that. The Policing and Crime Bill is very close to becoming

law so it's too late to write to MPs I'm afraid. It might be possible to

change it later on (e.g. when the Directive is transposed into domestic

law). Look on the bright side - at least they've let you keep the things".

The UK legislation can be found here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/section/128/enacted

Which could make for some interesting court cases: for the majority of pre-2016 spec deacts, declaring them to be 'defectively deactivated' would be an error of physical fact.

Came across this and thought it might be of interest:

The Demise of the 1975 Pattern Design & Route to the '90 Pattern

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/455093/20150820-FOI06779_Demise_of_1975_Pattern_Design.pdf

It isn't tapered and it measures 3.45in / 87.63mm at the neck. (The very earliest cases made in 1937/38 are marked 3.45" rather than 25PR) Case thickness is about 1mm.

Presumably they would now require a Sec 1 or Sec 5 FAC to possess, depending on what they were?

It would probably have been used with an S.1898/05 'Butcher' bayonet. They're not rare, so it depends what condition you want / how much you want to pay. Picking a dealer at random, Jeremy Tenniswood has three:

http://www.militaria.co.uk/militaria.asp?CatName=BAYONETS%20and%20MILITARY%20KNIVES&SubCatName=GERMANY%20-%20IMPERIAL&parentid=975&catid=1072

Although you could probably get a better deal at a militaria fair. Loads of info on the 98/05 here:

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/HTNL%20DOCUMNETS/German_98_05_%20variations.htm

the one I have is

105/617 DM60

LOS LM Z-1-23

It came from a CENT A.O.P. 26 Regt I think.

I think that's a US made case. The US M60 tank used the same ammunition as the Centurion.

Hi,

I'm after two British 105mm tank shell cartridge cases. To be specific, I'm after one coded 'RW242' on the base for a practice shell and one coded 'RW303' for a smoke shell.

Would anyone have any for sale or know of where to find them?

Thanks,

Mark