Tugger

18 hours ago, Nick Johns said:

someone has made an error, War and Peace Revival Limited Only ever ran and traded as the "War and Peace Revival Show",  Not the War & Peace show, that was to be run last year, dropping the Revival name and presume this year by Blosville Limited, "Trading as the War & Peace show"

It throws up a number of queries

There is W&P Events ltd (14051915) which was set up on 22 April 2022, which is listed as dormant but isn't involved in the insolvency.

There's W&P Revival ltd (09677864) set up on 8th Jan 2014 which is the one being liquidated 

and amongst all the other various shooting show ones there's also Bolsville ltd (also dormant)

I don't know if Blosville ltd was ever part of the W&P fiasco, but as I mentioned once before previously, it would be interesting to know from those who did unfortunately pay for tickets, whether they paid W&P Revival ltd or W&P Events ltd

...and for that matter what does the shyster plan on doing with W&P Events ltd? (it could be just that he registered it so no one else could set up with the same company name considering Rex still owns the dormant  W&P ltd (08169948) and The W&P Show ltd (08169992) ).. but he's a slippery shit so I would put much past him.

Katie might well end up earning all of her £7k if she ends up having to untangle the mess of tickets sold by W&P Revival ltd that were supposed to be honoured by W&P Events ltd (or whichever company was supposed to run the 2023 show)

This may be a bit long winded but please bear with me;

A big show like W&P will cost a lot to run and as such I can understand having to charge a certain amount to cover 'security', staffing & toilets etc. However the basic premise of "without the exhibitors there is no show" is absolutely correct. As such there should be (as i understand Rex used to run it) a financial or logistic incentive for the really big kit... the real crowd pullers that you're not otherwise going to see. Without that and as we have seen, due to the cost of hauling these around, these guys are going to understandably be the first to pull out, then the trickle down starts...

Without the big kit some of the punter numbers drop away as will some of the other exhibitors, then costs will have to be raised slightly to balance the books, with higher costs more exhibitors start to drift away, and as we're invariably camping in groups, this will have an influence on others attending exponentially...all the while, the paying punters are seeing lees and less kit for their entry fee.

Meanwhile in the background as their main customer base is dropping away, the traders are seeing figures dropping because... lets face it, most of the paying public aren't there to look for spares for their Dodge Weapons Carrier, or CVRT and we will see fewer relevant traders and more purveyors of 'fairground tat'

At this point the the organisers aren't necessarily seeing an accurate drop in figures because of their inflated prices and there are still a reasonable number of paying public.

But after a while, as more and more exhibitors (even those who don't mind paying a sensible fee) drop away because their friends no longer go (which I would hazard, is why a good percentage of us make the pilgrimage every year) and there will be a sudden dearth of vehicles barring easily mobilised Jeeps and Land Rovers making it less and less enticing for exhibitors to go.

Suddenly the public will realise the arena goings on aren't as much of a thrall, and as well as the loss of revenue from the exhibitors, you've lost what you had from the turnstiles too

To take it to the extreme, you won't find the manufacturers of roller coasters paying the Merlin group to have their rides at Alton Towers. The main revenue should always come from the paying visitors. 

I can't help but think that W&P has got to die off again so someone else with a sense of what the show is really about can take the reins of an MV show for owners to which public have access, subsidised by the traders and turnstiles. 

Just had a bit of a Google, (why I didn't previously is anyone's guess   ) However, putting A F Church and Uganda Railway in to Google turned up numerous references to the Kenya Gazette dating around 1910-16 and thereabouts. It seems to be A F Church (Arthur Fredrick) was Superintendent of Ways & Works and  Acting General Manager at various times. I wanted to double check I was looking at the same A F Church and thought idly about some of the other names mentioned in the Gazette...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1deuo-c2lo4C&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=uganda+railway++a+f+church&source=bl&ots=SnR6lQrLKE&sig=ACfU3U29IrrNjmxtBgX5iHx1s6eoD4Ll4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJqe2wgonhAhU8VRUIHYzZBQcQ6AEwDHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=uganda railway a f church&f=false

 E G Wilson appears having signed off General Notice 300 in the section below A F Church's entry

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f3DMn83bIVwC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=uganda+railway++a+f+church&source=bl&ots=Nx90cbyGlK&sig=ACfU3U1wwBHQjWd9vVkOzrsF8CSxNOBhxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJqe2wgonhAhU8VRUIHYzZBQcQ6AEwC3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=uganda railway a f church&f=false

And this appears to be A E Cruickshank

Lo and behold if they don't bear a resemblance to these signatures... the search continues

On 3/1/2019 at 12:56 PM, MatchFuzee said:

Yes, I would like to a photo of the plaque. 

Sorry for the delay...here's a pic of said shell and plaque. A.F. Church was my Great Grandfather.

On 2/27/2019 at 4:33 PM, MatchFuzee said:

Tugger

With the link to the Ugandan Railway and previous volunteer experience (the spoon was his?) I wonder if he was in the Uganda Railway Volunteer Reserve:-

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/community/8059

The list of the India Volunteer Corps (1904) corrected to 30th June 1915:-

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88335285

The 1st Battalion's officers:-

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88335465

Many thanks for that, I'll have to spend some time looking through it and finding out what I can... In the meanwhile, I'll take a pic of the turtle shell/plaque for you in case you're interested and can glean any more info from it... Thanks again.

27 minutes ago, Minesweeper said:

Any possibility of showing a picture of the Hallmarks?

Sure, no problem, As far as I've found they were was made by Elkington & Co. and hallmarked in Birmingham

On 2/18/2019 at 12:27 PM, 11th Armoured said:

There was a Great Indian Peninsula Railway Volunteer Corps:

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Great_Indian_Peninsula_Railway_Regiment

That's an interesting point, thanks. The silverware was handed down from my Father's side. His mother (my Grandmother) was born in India in 1900 and her father (surname Church) was a railway engineer as far as I am aware as we have a  plaque mounted on a (very non-PC turtle shell) commemorating the building of the Ugandan Railway. I don't know much else, but it puts things in the right part of the world...I'll see what else I can unearth

On 2/17/2019 at 5:02 PM, MatchFuzee said:

What date are the spoons?

They appear to be dated 1908

Hi all, i'm not sure if anyone can help, but I was given a selection of silver cutlery as a family hand-me-down, included were a couple of teaspoons with a crossed rifles emblem and the letters L.Co. and G.I.P.V underneath, can anyone shed any light on what they might be from. I've attached a pic

Thanks in advance

From the website:

"There is no charge for essential support vehicles such as low loaders or vehicles trailering motorcycles, although we still require the vehicle details to enable us to issue passes."

It might be worth giving someone at the Muckleburgh Collection a ring, as they offer paid rides and imagine they must have some PLI in place for it.

Further to the above replies , here are some links to some airbases that have museums attached

Suffolk

http://www.bcwm.org.uk/ Bentwaters, Now a cold war museum but a great museum with some static jet exhibits and a fantastic bunker control room museum

http://www.493bgdebach.co.uk/ Debach airfield

http://www.mhas.org.uk/ Martlesham

http://www.parhamairfieldmuseum.co.uk/ Parham

https://www.bawdseyradar.org.uk/ and as mentioned before Bawdsey radar.

South Norfolk

http://www.aviationmuseum.net/ RAF Flixton (Bungay)

http://www.453museum.com/ Old Buckenham (museum recently opened in 2016)

That is I'm sure by no means an exhaustive list and no doubt others here can add sites without museums that have some sort of permissive access.

Sunday was a dry day, so it would have been better to wait than leaving on the Saturday.

Hindsight would make us all the greatest weather forecasters , as it happened the forecast was changing at least twice a day...I took my chances and got home dry.

But as said above, we're not guests, we're paying punters ourselves and as such we retain the right to leave when it suits us best.

All told I did have a cracking show, the shower pods were great other than the drainage issues and I presume they have their own water supply (in the big yellow bladders?) as such could they not be also located elsewhere on the site, spreading out the washing facilities a bit?

I have to admit I packed up on the Sat, It was my intention to go on the Sunday as planned but the forecast was dire and I didn't fancy packing up and getting stuck on the M25 in a downpour with minimal weather protection :-(. I think that was the similar decision to the others that went early. I think the Sunday pack up is preferable though.

Can anyone confirm whether the portable shower pods had their own water supply in the big yellow bladders nearby? It certainly looked like it. In which case why cant they site some of them further afield... in a further field

I used these over the course of the week and other than draining issues which I would put down to excessive mud and not really anyone's fault, they worked very effectively with no discernible queue... but I shouldn't tell you all that you'll all want to use them next year

No photos I'm afraid... but I wonder who's DUKW I saw on the back of a low loader driving past Woodbridge, Suffolk this morning at about 07:45?? I know of at least one in the locality, but wondered if this was someone's here.

I thought I'd have a look and see what John Allison had said in CMV so I got myself a copy. I was a little surprised at his candid responses, in particular;

• "The key element is the entertainment and education of the public and schools. It's a massive event run by enthusiasts that just meet up once a year but you cannot run an event this size on that ethos, it's an entertainment and that entertainment is for the visiting public not for the likes of me and you who are there to enjoy it."
  

I agree that it is a show put on for the public, but in this instance it is most definitely in equal measures for the benefit of the public AND the exhibitors who are not there for any money making reasons and as such have equal reason to expect it is as much their show as for the public... lets face it they're all paying to go in one way or another

• "I don't want people wandering round in hi-viz, If you're driving a tank the responsibility is on you to make sure you don't run anyone over"
  

Only up to the point when someone does get injured and HSE pop along and ask what safety measures were in place and would wonder in no uncertain terms if hi-viz jackets for vehicle marshals were available then why weren't they worn... it's not ideal but I'd put any amount of money on that being the outcome.

• "If you don't get the general public in you haven't got a show. Why should they come and be treated as second class citizens?
  

I don't believe they should...but in this case with the sheer number of exhibitors especially those who bring several pieces of kit who come to set up camp and make an effort to meet up once a year, you would have a show without the public, agreed, not a very profitable one, but more of a show than if the exhibitors were to go elsewhere.

• At the British Shooting Show we have the crème of the industry and the reason they want to be there is because they know we work our backsides off to get the general public in We make our money from the public and they spend their money with the trade
  

This is the really surprising response, and in making it, it strikes me he really hasn't done much research into the mechanics of the show. I imagine the British shooting Show is predominantly full of trade stalls aiming to sell their wares to the paying public who in turn have gone to buy something... and in that instance John's analogy works, however 99% of the exhibitors will go to WPR to display their vehicles or living history without looking to make money. The trade stalls will hope to make most of their money from the exhibitors rather than the paying public such is the nature of most of the trade stalls. And the paying public will go to look and watch and be, as he says earlier 'entertained'. they may buy some trinkets from the stalls and a burger here and there but not replacement GMC engines or Jeep body shells or other such specialised large purchases the trade sellers will hope for. I cant imagine there will be one exhibitor who goes solely because the public will be in attendance.

It's a monumental shame because to attract such big pieces of kit the show needs to be a week long to make the travel worthwhile and I don't think smaller shows will get the same attendance, this would be a shame for not only us the enthusiasts but also the public who wont get to see the massive variety of military machines and reenactors.

I have doubt's over my attendance this year, not because of cost, but because I go to catch up with friends and simply if they're not there there's no point in my going. I've thoroughly enjoyed previous shows however I am actively hunting out smaller more local shows.

Yes, the large ones make great spare wheel covers.

Something tells me us Suffolk-ites ought to get together for some sort of meet :cool2:

If it's any help and I'm not standing on anyone's toes, I'm about 10 miles from the docks at the moment and will be all today and tomorrow (working at Levington) let me know if I can help. Happy to collect. I'll keep this page open.

(Copy posted elsewhere)

As of yesterday (22/7) Stack is back in operation and freight is stacked from Jct 8-9, traffic coming off at 8 was HEAVY. More by luck than judgement we came yesterday via the A/M2 then as far as Canterbury, took the A28, then A2070, then A20, perhaps a little further and longer than usual but had no holdups and completely avoided the M20.

Of course this is only applicable for those coming clockwise around the M25 over Dartford.

This may be old news now as knock on effects may have made this option congested too.

Good luck people!

A friend of mine turned down the idea of going as he heard the M20 was completely closed at Junction 8. So how are things now with the route to WPR. Presumably getting from Junction 8 to A20 would not be too hard?

As of yesterday (22/7) Stack is back in operation and freight is stacked from Jct 8-9, traffic coming off at 8 was HEAVY. More by luck than judgement we came yesterday via the A/M2 then as far as Canterbury, took the A28, then A2070, then A20, perhaps a little further and longer than usual but had no holdups and completely avoided the M20.

Of course this is only applicable for those coming clockwise around the M25 over Dartford.

This may be old news now as knock on effects may have made this option congested too.

Good luck people!

Regarding the enormous profit that WPR made, this article suggests otherwise

 

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/all-is-fair-in-war-15862/

That's a very interesting article that not only shows the complicated ownership of the W&P franchise (if you will) but it also suggests that Rex was happier with the current Hop Farm owners and one could read in to it that after the 5 year lease at Folkestone had run its course the option to return to Beltring might be viable.

Not saying that Rex should, (by heck he's earned his retirement from the show) but it does suggest that since Hop Farm is now under new ownership & management, the option might be there for a new show organiser to return....perhaps?

 

If War and Peace doesn't rise from the ashes, I feel the hobby in general will lose out in a big way.

I agree hugely. There are indeed many other smaller shows, but as I see it, It takes such a huge show as W&P lasting the best part of a week to attract so many people, their vehicles, living history, stalls and entertainments in one place. Anything smaller and suddenly a lot of attendees from further away won't make the effort.

For the first time in about 10 years (barring one year due to the birth of Tugger Jnr Mk II less than a month before the show...and my attendance would have insured all future association with my son would be by means of monthly visits and a costly maintenance order) I'll not be attending with a vehicle. It's not due to the show, but rather available holiday and work commitments. :-(

Parts of me are really going to miss it; the planning, packing up, the camaraderie, the sun, the rain, having said that though, there is the fact that I won't miss it as much as I would have done if it were at Beltring. Folkestone hasn't really gelled for me as a site, but as I've said before, I'm in it to catch up with really good friends with the added advantage of some big boys toys thrown in.

That said, I will hopefully be going as a day tripper on one day to catch up with these friends... and because I don't think I can quite manage a whole year without picking my way through some trade stalls trying to find some old tat to fill my workshop :cool2:

It made the wife decide that next year i go alone or she sleeps in a hotel.

According to Mr. Cadman the ones who did it got punished, but still.

I had the family along for the night (9yo, 8yo & 4yo) needless to say it didn't go down too well with us... and I don't believe for a second anything was done about it.