Sean N

BTW, on a tangent, does anyone know the origin of 'khazi' or 'Kharzi'? I have heard that it's from Hindi, but no one I've met (all natives) know anything like it in Hindi, Urdu or Panjabi; another theory is that it comes from isiZuli 'imKhazi', but it doesn't ring a bell with the Zulu, Xhosa or Djebele I've asked.

The OED and Collins both have it a deriving from a Cockney word generally given as 'Carsey' for little house, itself said to have derived from the Italian Casa (for house). Suspect it's one of those lost in the mists of time, though.

FVRDE Spec. 9502 Body, 1 Ton, GS, Cargo, (Austin). 1951

FVRDE Spec. 9503 Body, 1 Ton, GS, Cargo, (RAF), (Austin). 1952

FVRDE Spec. 9513 Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4, GS (Austin) Water Tanker 200 Gallons, FV16008, Air Ministry Version. 1954

FVRDE Spec. 9514 Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4, GS (Austin) Water Tanker 200 Gallons, FV16102. 1952

FVRDE Spec. 9533 Body & Mounting for Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4 GS (Austin) Wireless Light, FV16003. 1953

FVRDE Spec. 9555 Body, 1 Ton, 4x4 GS, (Austin), Cargo, FV16001. 1953

FVRDE Spec. 9574 Body & Mounting for Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4 GS (Austin) Cargo FFW, FV16002. 1953

FVRDE Spec. 9594 Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4 GS, (Austin), Water Tanker, 200 Gallons (War office version FV16009) 1954

FVRDE Spec. 9595 Truck, 1 Ton, 4x4 GS, (Austin), Cargo, FFW, Mk 2, FV16002. 1954

FVRDE Spec. 9673 Body & Mounting for Truck, 1 Ton, GS, Cargo, 4x4, Austin Series III, FV16012. 1960

Clive,

Had I known you had this lot I'd have been round to yours when you were 45 minutes away rather than four hours as you are now!

As no-one is biting on the K9s I'd better follow my own question!

In my experience with K9s there are three main cab types. Early vehicles (early BG registrations) with a civilian Loadstar type cab and no roof hatch; main production vehicles with military cab, roof hatch but unvented bonnet; and late vehicles with uprated military cab and vented bonnet.

In the first image, on the parade ground, I was thrown as the K9 ARN was earlier than the RL ARN, but the K9 appeared to be a later truck. The main reason I thought it was later was because of the bonnet with ventilation slots in the front, which only appeared on late K9s. I wasn't thinking about (the implications of) the specific ARN.

In the colour image, I took the lead K9 to be our old friend 94 BG 06 again, as the first digit looked partly obscured; but although this was a later image, it seemed to have lost its roof hatch and gun mount brackets. Only the first few hundred K9s had the civilian type cab with no hatch.

If the service registration of that lead K9 is 34 BG 06 it would make more sense as that would put it firmly in the early batch with the civilian cab, no roof hatch.

And thinking about it, despite the apparent lateness of the bonnet, 94 BG 06 (or 08) is still quite an early registration for a K9 - in that first 1951 - 1952 contract that Wally mentioned, so it could be around the same age as the early RL.

But - all the K9s irrespective of age have the late bonnet, typical of later contracts. Why? Did they have a habit of wrecking bonnets in Libya?

I wonder if the answer is this. In my experience with K9s they tend to build up underbonnet heat which vapourises the fuel, making them difficult to restart hot. OK, my experience is with modern not 1960s fuel, but I wonder if they found it to be a problem in the desert and either changed the bonnets of vehicles going out there, or specified hot climate vehicles with the vented bonnet which later made it to all production vehicles?

The master parts list has two bonnets listed, for WB and WD/D vehicles, but isn't clear on what the different vehicle or bonnet types are, and unhelpfully doesn't have drawings of the bonnet(s).

Yes! Yes! Plus I thought that little generator was on the 'wrong' wing!

I must try to get the negative or transparency from Wilf's son or get him to correct it. Oddly enough, I've spotted more reversed images, even one or two I've put on here but I kept quiet about it! The only real clue would have been the District flash.

You should be able to flip the image in Photoshop. Image > Rotate > Flip Horizontal.

I don't think the charger exhaust goes into the vehicle, just down the side.

Ford Anglia in the background.

I don't think it can be BC as 43 BC 71 - 99 BC 99 was not used.

 

BG makes more sense & would make it a signals truck which makes the basic vehicle Bridge Class 4, but some fitted with certain installations were Bridge Class 5. So are they different vehicles or has it changed the type of radio installation between photos?

I agree with CLIVE about the BC numbers if the K9 NUMBERS where BG then 34 BG 06 was a cargo 94 BG 06 and

94 BG 08 where FFW NUMBERS 01 BG 01 to 99 BG 46 where supplied under contract 6/V/7877 start on the contract

in the financial year 1951/52

Clive, Wally, thanks. Wally, I hoped you would chip in. I said earlier I would be much happier if the registrations were BG and this is why. I felt BC was not possible, though I can't find my list of K9 ARNs, and also I still own a very early production K9 which is BG registration, again implying they could not be BC.

So we have maybe 34 BG 06, 94 BG 06 and possibly 94 BG 08. Or maybe just 34 BG 06 and 94 BG 06. Or maybe just 94 BG 06. Although the thread has moved on I'd still like to be sure the one Lizzie is interpreting as 34 BG 06 is definitely a different truck and not 94 BG 06 again. I wish we had service history for these vehicles to pin it down.

And there is still something odd about all of them though I think I have an explanation.

Now we see the 'same' truck again, this time sporting a 4 on the Bridge Plate and not the 'earlier'(?) 5. This is fun! :laugh:

Maybe we just accept that Libya and them days were truly 'unique'. No real rules. Or not?

The photo says Homs but to me I'd say 'out of Homs' and probably in Castle Verde or Ben Ulid. That is not a street view of Homs as it was in the 60s.

Can you see any wing mirrors? I can't (I have a wing mirror vision complex now;)).

What's that 'thing' underneath the truck rear?

Curioser and curioser, said Alice.

I can't see any wing mirrors and I have no idea what the thing underneath is. It looks slightly tapered and to have a slot in each side. A wooden step?

Sean!!! Now you're teasing me!! You didn't spot the difference with the colour one even after I said 'no hole in cab roof' or some such suggestion? :-) So, colour K9 has no hole in cab roof and the complete VRN of this one is .... 34BG06. Yes, truly a different truck though the B&W ones are odd. Maybe the fuzzy one is 08 as you and Richard say and not 06 though on the master it really still looks like a 06.

I did spot the difference with the colour one, that's why I've been asking you about the differences.

So we have 34 BG 06, 94 BC 06 and maybe 94 BC 08 (or 94 BG 08) though I'd go with what you think as you are looking at the original. I'd be happier thinking they were all BG registrations and there is STILL something odd going on even if they are different trucks! I will cogitate some more.

BTW Peugeot 403 behind the K9.

Sean, I was looking at the photo of the K9 on the vehicle park a few days ago, and think the last digit in the ARN is either 8 or 9, that would explain why it does not match with '06.

Must admit I had it as 94 BG 08 originally then decided it must be 06 after Lizzie published the next photo. Even so there's still something odd about it.

I read the VRN in both original B&W photos as ....... 94BC06 and not BG. True, the C curls up though there is no hint of a cross bar to the curl up. Maybe it is a G? Looks to me to be the same truck in both photos though in one there's a new screen surround and then of course, arm of service/district flash changes. If they are different trucks, they 'share' the same VRN :shocked: I'm not sure if John Empson himself would know.

So we have 3 photos with what may or may not be the same truck.

In the first photo, taken in 1960-ish the registration appears blurry to us. I originally read 94 BG 08 and Richard thought 08 or 09 but Lizzie says it is 94 BC 06.

In the second photo, with the Ferret, taken in 1960-ish it appears to be 94 BC 06 allowing for a very curly C, which Lizzie agrees.

In the third, colour photo taken in 1961 it looks like ?4 BG 06 - Lizzie, can you read the original more clearly?

Whether one truck or two, there is still something odd going on with it or them!

This photo shows one, with offset vents though I don't know where I got the photo from, so 'credit due to the original photographer' whoever they were (perhaps someone will recognise this for us?). I again guess this is an 'original fit' and not some mash-up by a misguided enthusiast. I have another photo that shows presumably the same truck and the generator inside it.

A quick Google image search says that photo was on a Gumtree ad about 10 months ago, and the RL was in St George, Bristol for sale at £4,000. Nice truck - an early survivor and in pretty good condition.

I think we need photos of the moose, if not in this thread. Where in Calgary are you?

K9 ...... obvious differences between them is no hole in the cab roof! I think there were 3 cab types, with obvious variances such as trafficators/electric indicators, louvres/no louvres on the waist below the scuttle and perhaps something different on those bonnet louvres. Maybe its so obvious Sean, that I've missed it!!!! It is though, sand-coloured and that is most important overall!!!

There is something odd going on with that K9 if it's the same vehicle. The registration isn't quite clear in the different shots - perhaps you could confirm from the originals that it's 94 BG 06 both times?

Edit - my and your earlier posts about the MRA1 crossed as I was interrupted. Sorry.

Lizzie, you flatter me, though I wouldn't say I'm an RL expert by any means, I just love them.

I'd guess it's the normal RLD charging body with a variation on the tilt rather than the 27 kVA gen set vehicle as it doesn't seem to have any of the other signifiers.

I know what that towed genny is, but I can't bring it to mind at the moment. I'm sure Mr Farrant will be able to place it. The interloper is of course a Morris Commercial MRA1, an awful vehicle and not a patch on a K9!

Hi Lizzie,

Clive is obviously not letting on whether he's using special software or repairing the image using Photoshop or similar, though from his last comment I'd say possibly the latter.

You can get specialist software to heal dust and scratches - Silverfast do one, for example - but I couldn't comment on good or bad programs as I've never used any. A scanner with Digital ICE can do a good job as well.

If you are using Photoshop the clone stamp can work as well as the healing brush tools. The trick is to pick the right brush size and type and then go carefully. I often find a soft edge brush works well as it will blend in. It's just practice really.

Anyway, back to the trucks. The charging body on early RLs at least is the same as the cargo body with a few modifications. To quote the user handbook:

"The body used on this model is a converted Cargo body without seats. Two low benches are fitted in the body, one at each side, extending from the front towards the tailboard. Each bench is provided with a cupboard and a drawer. Provision is made for busbars to be mounted along the sides of the body to which batteries, placed on the benches, may be connected for charging. A stand and strap are provided at the rear end of each bench to secure carboys of distilled water or acid. Holes are bored through the floorboards towards the front end of the body to encourage air circulation and prevent accumulation of acid fumes. The holes are covered with a perforated zinc plate. A ramp is provided to facilitate loading and unloading of batteries. All internal wood and metal parts of the body are treated with acid resisting paint. The tilt has six windows of oiled canvas, two in each side, one in the front and one in the rear. Each window is provided with a canvas flap for blackout purposes"

The 'benches' are in fact a lot more akin to racks, and there is often a third floor mounted rack in the middle. Interestingly your two charging vehicles - which are both very early RLs - have two windows, not one, at the front.

The rest of the RLs appear to be cargo vehicles and appear to be later cabs, after the headlight position was changed (at least, vehicle 6 is).

Did you notice the interloper, fourth vehicle in the convoy, which no-one has commented on, and does seem to be towing a generator trailer although not the 27.5 KVA Meadows?

On first look I had assumed the first K9 was our friend 94 BG 06 from the earlier photo, but if it is, something dramatic has happened to it between the two shots. It might also explain the discrepancy between the apparent ages and the vehicle registrations in the earlier shot. Can you spot what I'm seeing?

Hello JP, I think it might, the question is to what extent.

I have a couple of tachos here, late '70s to 80s paper disk type tachos of plastic construction. I'd be pleased to find out they're worth something but I don't think they are. A quick search seems to indicate maybe £50 if that.

Your tacho is obviously older and I would think not common, so IF someone is restoring a truck of that era and needs to replace the tacho it would obviously be of value to them. The reservation is how many people are restoring trucks of that era - there never used to be that many, but there is increasing interest in them; I don't know what the vintage commercial scene is like where you are.

There are a lot of people asking very optimistic prices for things out there, but not necessarily getting them. Thing to do might be keep an eye on that one and see if it sells, or search eBay with the 'completed listings' or 'sold listings' filter checked to see what actually sold.

Of course, the other way to do it is stick it on eBay as an auction at at a moderate price or at a higher price with best offer and let it find its place in the market.

How's that Viva GT coming on?

There's one of these Lansing sideloaders locally, though it's conventional diesel not Ex

It's definitely different on the second photo but looks as though the O/S flash is the same while the N/S flash has been changed to the Tripolitania Barbary dhow Lizzie uses as her avatar. I can only see two tones in the first image but that may just be my eyes.

They've painted the O/S screen frame as well.

Lizzie, I meant to say you can get software to clean all that dust and speckles etc. up, or often there are plugins or filters in image editing software such as Photoshop to do it.

Yes, the Perkins colour (inside) is really quite brick red, while the colour on that engine is very dull brown, but I wasn't sure if that was just age and contamination.

A quick Google image search says "Aeronautical engineer and inventor Vittorio Isacco demonstrates his telescopic rotating wing at Boreham Airfield for British and foreign government officials. Its intended purpose is to replace the parachute as an emergency descent device." courtesy of Getty Images.

It has been discussed before on HMVF but I had forgotten that the Belgians painted their engines red and that the CVRT and parts in that topic had come from Belgium.

I can't recall the 'fresh' colour - am I right in thinking it was about the same as the red oxide on the inside of Perkins engines?

The photos expand on 'click' if I'm logged in and the L.A.D vehicles 'blow up' magnificently! Is it me or you? :-) ... Oh, Sean et al, I think there is a problem with some of the photos not expanding, regardless of being logged in or not. Some are expandable, some are not. Hmmm, what's going on as I upload in the same way each time (I think I do, as there is only one way, isn't there?).

Lizzie, it's seemed to me on other occasions that there's something in the forum software that uses the posted image as a thumbnail and links to the full size image if the image is over a certain size. I've never been able to confirm that suspicion or establish the critical size though. Nevertheless it would explain what's going on.

No idea about the square thing on the cab roof front though to the rear of it, perhaps sticking up on a mini-mast or on a small base plate welded to the cab rear, seems to be one of those black rubber antenna base units.

I think that the square thing on the front corner of the cab of the K9 is one of the brackets for the knobs that the air defence machine gun mount attaches to. In the latest photo in the post above you can see the one on the back corner of the cab and the one front centre as well. David

David, I didn't think it was originally, and I was accounting for the gun mount. It appeared that there was something square in front of the mount at the very front of the roof.

However looking at it again, I think what's happening is that there is something horizontal and linear just above the windscreen at the front of the roof, which is combining with the light and shadow of the roof and gun mount to give the illusion of a square plate. It could be that the windscreen wiper is parked on the roof which can happen on K9s.

I notice it's had the offside windscreen replaced though.

Two flashes are fine in being historically correct if you have the reference..

Lizzie, I think you may have missed the tongue in cheek nature of my comment...

I see it's BAIV selling these, who I don't think are known for sensible pricing, though I may be wrong. They're talking them up a lot though!

Last one of these I saw come out through an MoD sale was at the miscellaneous auction at Dunkeswell in the late '90s. That was a crated 27DW engine recently rebuilt and was knocked down for around £550.

I came close to buying it out of interest but had no use for it and was impecunious at the time so didn't. I remember looking at the specific fuel consumption on the test sheet, which was pretty frightening!

Oh OK, hadn't picked that up. Thanks Richard. Are you seeing some small fragments of sky bue on it or is it just my eyes?

Incidentally on the OLBC engine colour, the more I think about it the more I think I noted it as sky blue at the time and then had brain fade later, but I can't be sure so can't take it as a point of information.

Data point - see this thread about the NZ CVRT rebuild:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?56120-Scorpion-Scimitar-Restoration-in-New-Zealand&p=484302#post484302

Photos only, but I see these engines as first one OEM red with maybe sky blue traces, other two sky blue.

Also bearing and power transmission suppliers.

If you're really stuck give me a shout, I can probably get some down here and send it up.

Wasn't Strachans another bodybuilder or was that only on the SB3 ?

They were but I can't recall if they made VAS etc. bodies.

Judging by the shape of the missing radiator grille on the first one I assume it's one of those that had the grille that was like a panel with lots of small square punched holes in, which IIRC was on several different bodies on VAS and SB

Last two that style I know of coming out of the MoD were VASs LAA 541L and LAA 543L, which were used as test vehicles at RAE. Both had jacks / stabilisers etc. like the office trailers and were subsequently converted to campers.

Oh, the 2RTR tank park coloured photos went by without notice, as did the that b&w one with all those ...

They were, for my ageing eyes at least, a bit small to see & pick up on much detail, and don't click through to a larger version like some others.

An Austin K9, again! RL Binner and fitter's Halftrack L.A.D REME 2RTR, Homs 1960/61. Photo by John Empson REME.

Austin K9 has an earlier registration than the RL (BG vs BJ) yet is a later vehicle. Could the RL have been in store for several years before being allocated a service registration? That doesn't seem to tie in with what I understood to be the practice.

RL without a bridge plate, just the number painted straight onto the panelwork which seemed to happen a lot on R types - and the half track with a bridge plate but no number.

What is the square thing on the front of the K9 roof, above the screen just at the top of the passenger side 'A' post?

I wonder if you put two flashes on a restored truck whether you'd get a lot of flak from the rivet counters?