Grumpy

After a period of rest in a Welsh field, a wee little Scammell Constructor some of you may know as Red Dragon has ventured out of Wales to the Cathedral City for a bit of TLC

It’s always nice to have a Militant on hand when you’re loading on your own

Loaded and on its way, just another 125 miles to go

After all those years in a Welsh field it’s good to see the rear bogie pivots aren’t sized

And it’s also nice to have another Militant to help him back into his new resting place

Unfortunately due to other projects its looks like we wont be able to make a start on the restoration until next year, but at least he is safe now and should be back on the show circuit again, maybe for a couple of the later shows next year.

Maybe able to help PM sent

Just to put a spanner in the works -

 

NO ONE is exempt from driving hours when it comes to the law.

 

If your vehicle does not have a tacho fitted - you are required by LAW to keep a written record of your driving hours!!!

 

Whether you are driving PLG / HGV with an O licence / Recovery vehicles or anything else - you are NOT exempt drivers hours.

 

 

Markheliops

Sorry Mike but a vehicle that has Historic Status is exempt from both Tacho and Drivers hours if used on a non commercial basis. In the UK a vehicle gains Historic Status (not for VED but thats another story) at the age of 25 years.

There are quite a few other exemptions such as Breakdown/Recovery vehicles operating within 100km radius of base and our good old favorate the "Mobile Project Vehicle" are now also exempt from Driving Hours and Tacho

Info here - Exemptions on pages 9 to 12 -http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/Rules%20on%20Drivers%20Hours%20and%20Tachographs%20-%20Goods%20vehcles%20in%20the%20UK%20and%20Europe.pdf

Hi Ian, had a good look around your truck when it was still at Dave's yard, looked really good with lots of potential. One thing I did notice was the cab is an unusal shape under the windscreen on the outer edge sort of dished in and not flat. If you are ever down in the Midlands or you have someone comming up to yours, I have a spare battery carrier available.

will be taking drops gear of if anyone has use for it.

PM sent

Come on Mike Where, When, How?

Exemption form here to be handed in when truck taken for test / first test.

If vehicle is exempt from Tachographs but has one fitted being used as a Speedo, calibration / test is not required.

If a vehicle is exempt from Tachographs then the driver is also exempt from driving hours whilst driving said vehicle.

Tachograph Exemption.pdf

How do you check the oil level in a Foden 9 Speed, on models without a PTO there is a dip stick on the filler, but models with PTO no dip stick? I’ve looked all over and can’t see a level plug on the side of the box.

Only way I can think of is drain the box and measure the oil back in :???

How can this be true Mike? All the services are still connected when it's out of the vehicle, there is no seperate oil circuit which needs connecting etc. I have a lot of 432 manuals and even the SEME pack lift instructional video and I have never seen any mention of the 15 min rule you mention? :???

 

Chris

Only thing I can think of is you are not drawing any air through the radiator with the pack out?:nono:

Thank you kind sir - Queens English and grammar is not my strong point – just ask Antar Mike :-D

I think the point to remember here is it’s always best to start off with the factory settings, ignition first and then fuel. Then if you know what you are doing you can have a play and get the best out of your engine like CW says, but you must start from a base point otherwise you will just be chasing your tail.

The factory settings are usually safe in regards to detonation (pinking) which is where the damage begins, Richard / CW, you have considerable experience and know what you are listening for when trying to get the best out of an engine, lets face it its hard to hear a B81 pinking in a Stolly going full chat at the best of times.

From personal experience I have always found the B series engines run best at around 1 Degree ATDC static especially when starting from hot, but this is probably due to the long stroke and combustion chamber shape rather than a requirement to hand crank / start.

Today’s petrol formula has changed but the majority of changes cancel themselves out, for example petrol today burns slower but the octane rating is much higher than the B series was designed for. The biggest problem is getting it into the combustion chamber with a carburettor as opposed to fuel injectors but that’s a different subject.

I cannot stress the importance of synchronisation of the points; it can only really be done with the dizzy out. You will need a protractor mounted on the shaft and a pointer.

I use a normal plastic half round protractor with a hole drilled in the centre. You then take out the screw that holds the cam to the shaft and use a slightly longer screw to fix the protractor to the top of the cam, one off the dizzy cap is just the right length. Make a pointer from a bit of welding wire ground to a point and fix it to the side of the dizzy enabling you to read the protractor.

The procedure I normally use is:

• Take the dizzy out and mount it in a vice.
• Clean, dress & gap both sets of points (try to get the points gapped as equal as possible)
  
• Mount the plastic protractor on the spindle & fix the pointer as above
  
• Rotate the shaft in the correct direction (clockwise) until the first set of points just open. (use a multimeter or battery & bulb)
  
• Zero the protractor & pointer
  
• Continue to rotate the shaft until the second set of points just open
  
• The protractor should be reading exactly 45 degrees for a 8 cylinder engine and 60 degrees for a six cylinder engine
  
• If not, adjust the sliding set of points in the right direction until you get exactly 45 or 60 degrees between the opening of the two sets of points.
  
• Finally seal the set screws securing the sliding points with paint.
  
• Re-fit dizzy and adjust timing to between 1 to 2 degrees ATDC
  

One point to remember, there are two types of points fitted, one with a wide shoe that runs on the cam and one with a narrow shoe. Either will work but you cannot mix a narrow shoe with a wide shoe as there is not enough adjustment in the sliding points to achieve the 45 or 60 degrees between firing. If you are stuck you can file a wide shoe down with a needle file.

If you want to do a quick check with the dizzy still on the engine you can do the following to see if the point’s synchronisation is even close (six cylinder only)

• Clean both sets of points and ensure both are gapped equal and correct.
• Turn the engine with the plugs out until the fixed set of points are just opening on number one firing stroke
  
• Note the timing mark on the flywheel
  
• Turn the engine through one complete revolution until the sliding set of points are just opening number 6 firing.
  
• The timing mark should now be in exactly the same position as with number one firing; if not the point synchronisation needs to be adjusted as above.
  

Hope the above helps but it isn’t a five minute job, and if checking with the dizzy still on the engine it’s a two man job, which is why I usually find it quicker to take the dizzy out.

The only way to time a B series Rolls-Royce is STATIC between 1 to 2 degrees AFTER TDC. Any other way will result is poor performance, hard starting when hot and burnt valves. Another point to remember on the B80 / 81’s is to synchronise the two set of points to fire exactly at 45 degree intervals.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh but it really frustrates me the amount of people who slag off the Rolls-Royce B series engines especially the 8 cylinders, and most of the time its down to incorrect setting up. The B series is quite forgiving but when set up right the difference is quite amazing.

Timing an engine by ear is ok for a get you home, like setting your points with a bit of fag packet.

Come on lads give your engine a bit of respect and set it up properly, it deserves it.

No but it helps

You'd have been lucky Andy - I called in on several occasions to the quarry at break time (thinking about it, it always seemed to be break time there............) and Peter's first words were "Here's a seat, here's a tea, now tell us a funny story" - sometimes the conversation never got anywhere near Scammells :-D

 

He left some years back with a few truckloads of earthmoving tackle and spent a while building roads into the African bush to recover quite a few traction engines and narrow gauge steam locomotives, all of which made it back to the UK (except for one of a pair of ploughing engines which fell off the barge he had built to float it across a river), married a native woman, very nearly died from a snake bite and that's the last I heard.

 

If anyone can finish the story to date I'd be very grateful. Is he still with us? It was always a real pleasure to meet him.

Still at the quarry a couple of years ago, think he spends 6 months here and about the same in Africa. Last time I was there he was trying to get a couple of Foden eight legers running to take to Africa, 5 tea breaks later it was time for tea.:goodidea:

I couldn't tell you that Al, I don't want fall foul of the unofficial HMVF policeman !

You know, the one that never breaks or bends the law ever himself.

:iamsmiling:

The Podvalnik P50 used on with the Tatra 813 is very similar to the Rogers 45 Ton, there are two heavy duty chains that go from the trailer end of the A frame to two large hooks either side of the Tatra chassis. These chains can be shortened to prevent the turntable rotating too far while reversing. Very tempted to modify my recovery trailer the same way.

Just to clarify, Locomotive is a vehicle description, not a taxation class. A Locomotive can, I believe, be legitimately taxed as Historic Vehicle.

Yes it would be classed as a Haulage Vehicle, on INF34

e) Haulage Vehicles – not used for haulage purposes.

But note; it cannot be used for haulage purposes i.e. not towing a trailer or under STGO:nono:

If a vehicle is not a recovery truck, it might well be a locomotive, and gain exemption from testing because of this.

 

Re test exeptions

 

Section 47 Road traffic Act 1988 Reg 6 Motor Vehicle (tests) regulations 1981

 

S47 (requirement for a test certificate) does not apply to the following vehicles.

(1) Heavy Locomotive.

(ii) Light Locomotive.

(iii) motor Tractor.

 

__________________

:clap:

Top of the class Mike, someone finally understands. Lesson here; don’t call it a Recovery Vehicle, call it anything else but NOT a Recovery Vehicle

 

I think the point Grumpy was making was that you cannot operate a Recovery vehicle as a Recovery vehicle under Historic tax - you can only run it around unladen.

 

 

But it is then no longer a Recovery Truck and therefore cannot claim Exemption from MOT / Plating for being a Recovery Truck

Joules

Have you bothered to read the first post I put on this thread, I enclosed the DVLA guidance notes on VED Exemption for Historic Vehicles, it clearly shows that a recovery vehicle is not eligible for free VED. I’ll enclose it again click on the link, have a read & make your own mind up.

INF34-Notes on Historic Tax.pdf

Vehicle having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnnes, constructed or adapted not to carry more than 8 people, in addition to the driver, carrying principally goods of burden consisting of

a) play or education equipment, or

b) articles required for the purposes of a display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose when stationary is recreational, educational or instructional.

 

 

As I was tought English grammer, and sentance construction, the MPV is the subject of the condition that is primary use when stationary is Educational etc.

 

 

If the display equipment was the subject of that clause, the "and" would not be there.

 

 

For it to be the exhibition articles that are staionary, the clause would read,

b) articles required for the purposes of a display or of an exhibition, the primary purpose of which, when stationary, is recreational, educational or instructional.

 

or

 

b) articles required for the purposes of a display or of an exhibition, whose primary purpose when stationary is recreational, educational or instructional.

 

It does not however say that.

 

if it said

 

Vehicle having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnnes, constructed or adapted not to carry more than 8 people, in addition to the driver, carrying principally goods of burden, namely bananas,

and the primary purpose when stationary is recreational, educational or instructional.

 

Clearly the sentence construction is that the vehicle is refered to as being stationary, not the bananas.

 

Substitute the "either or" clauses a) and b) for the bananas, and the vehicle will remain the subject of being stationary.

 

Well that's what my Grammar school education taught me, but English wasn't my favourite subject, but I believe the MPV is being referred to as having to have an educational purpose, when stationary. I am sure others will see it differently....

I’ll bow to your better education, but where does it state that the goods or burden have to remain on the vehicle, i.e. permanently fixed. Still reads either way to me, but there again I never went to Grammer School.

:stop: Not a good line to argue, if it is deemed you should have an MOT (ie your claim for exemption is found to be spurious) then your insurance is invalidated and they will get you that way as well so your potential total bill just got bigger

 

Never look at penalties in isolation or use that too justify to yourself not paying the fee in the first place

Totally agree, however if you have paid for insurance it will not be void for third party claims, which is the minimum requirement in law to drive on the highway. Even if you have never had a licence and not old enough to get one, or even nicked the truck. But we wont go there, got told off last time we did with this particular loophole in our great English law.

For Historic Vehicle exemption purposes recovery vehicles qualify under: e) Haulage Vehicles - not used for haulage purposes.

 

Haul; To pull or drag forcibly; transport by lorry or cart.

 

.

But the point is Haulage Vehicles are not MOT Exempt due to their type / use in the same way recovery vehicles are.

You can’t call it a Haulage vehicle one day to get free tax and then call it a recovery vehicle another day to make it MOT exempt, its one or the other.

But if it’s a Haulage vehicle that was first used before 1st Janurary 1960 you can claim both, however if its listed as a Breakdown Truck, Recovery Body or something similar on the V5 in the “Body / Vehicle Type” box and 43 in the adjacent code box this needs to be changed before you can claim free tax.

Full list of Body / Vehicle Types c/w Codes for Rigid Vehicles >3500Kg:

Code DVLA Description

22 Panel Van

23 Box Van

26 Pick-up

27 Motor Home/Caravan

28 Van/Side Windows

30 Pantechnicon

31 Luton Van

32 Insulated Van

33 Glass Carrier

34 Specially Fitted Van

36 Livestock Carrier

38 Flat Lorry

39 Dropside Lorry

40 Tipper

41 Low Loader

43 Breakdown Truck

44 Tanker

45 Solid Bulk Carrier

46 Concrete Mixer

47 Mobile Plant

48 Car Transporter

49 Refuse Disposal

52 Skip Loader

53 Special Mobile Unit

55 Airport Support

56 S/D Bus/Coach (Single Deck)

57 D/D Bus/Coach (Double Deck)

58 Standee Bus

59 H/D Bus/Coach (Half Deck)

60 Minibus

61 Curtain-Sided

74 Road Testing

76 Ambulance

77 Fire Engine

81 Line Painter

83 Street Cleansing

84 Gritting Vehicle

85 Tower Wagon

88 Snow Plough

94 Cesspool Emptier

95 Skeletal Vehicle

I just though it might be helpful :-D

Like a box of matches and a can of petrol useful :rofl: