Grumpy

Is that HGV or LGV as it is now only?

Full list of vehicles you cannot tax at the post office if you are not using the V11 reminder, i.e. vehicle is currently sorn.

• Goods vehicle (HGV)

· Reduced pollution HGV

· Trailer HGV

· Reduced pollution trailer HGV

· Private HGV

· Special trailer

· Special types vehicles

· Reduced pollution special types vehicles

· Small island vehicle

· Recovery vehicle

· Combined transport or reduced pollution combined transport

Sorry Tony, a HGV can only be re taxed at a local DVLA office after it has been on SORN. You can only tax at the post office if there is no gap in licensing.

You will need to take your Insurance, Log Book and V112G form.

Are the Matador rims 10"?

These are the only vehicles qualifying for historic tax – Just because a vehicle is manufactured before 1973 doesn’t automatically qualify it for historic tax.

Private or light goods vehicles – this includes buses used for voluntary, community or other non-profit-making purposes.

Motorcycles and tricycles.

Private heavy goods vehicle (HGV) – this does not include vehicles designed for, or adapted for, transporting goods on a public road for business purposes, including HGVs used for driver training or testing purposes.

Special vehicles – this includes mobile cranes and pumps, road rollers, works trucks and digging machines (except showmen’s goods and haulage vehicles).

Haulage vehicles – not used for haulage purposes.

Special concessionary – including agricultural machines, mowing machines, snowploughs, gritting vehicles, electric vehicles and steam vehicles.

Link to INF34: http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_065254.pdf

One of the reasons the 25 year exemption first came in was to help owners pay for the conversion to unleaded fuel after pressure from motoring groups. Don’t think Joe public has as much pull with the government now. Let’s face it, this current government was voted in by the people that came last, hardly democracy.

1988 was a bad year for me, my Aston was manufactured in January 1973 – missed it by a month:mad:

They are not the only ones...

Re: SORN fines

 

Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post

You cannot SORN it until the log book has been issued in your name, you have to wait until the logbook arrives then you can SORN it.

 

Even if it was taken off the road before SORN came in, when there is a change of keeper you have to SORN it. Same applies if you acquire a vehicle that is part way through the twelve month SORN period, when the new log book is issued the existing SORN is canceled and you have to re SORN. Just because the previous keeper signed and agreed to keep the vehicle off the road, he has no control once the vehicle has been sold on.

 

 

======================

 

The above quote..

 

With forum comments on such subjects , if you rely on a experience or know for certain then it is always best to quote some reference. My comment was that AFAIK - this is being re-cycled and not based on known facts , also I did agree with you on the variance of advice from DVLA. The problem being is that too many people are searching the internet for the truth because of misunderstanding due to official literature not being produced in plain English. The authoritioes rely on the fact that there are few solicitors & barristers and that the rest of the population lead a busy life , this enables these QUANGO to operate yet another extortion racket. You can see from the little info. presently available on SORN2 , they are feeling their way along with their police backers , drip, drip, drip

Buying a vehicle that has a SORN

If you buy a vehicle that already has a SORN made by the previous keeper, that SORN will come to an end on the date you buy the vehicle. You must make a new SORN if you are keeping the vehicle untaxed off the public road. You cannot transfer a SORN.

Taken off the DVLA Website – look yourself, better still read the relevant SI;)

Lorry propshafts are that much larger because for the torque increase due to gearing of the gearbox same as the Landrover.

I have spent many years offroading Landrover's some with very tasty V8’s in them. Managed to blow Diffs, Halfshafts, Drive Flanges, Clutch Centres, Gearboxes etc. mainly due to shock loading, never snapped a UJ.

The big Unimogs use a propshaft as drive from the clutch to gearbox; they are roughly the same size as the Landrover ones.

My Father used to work in the R&D department as Hardy Spicers; unfortunately he passed away three years yesterday. However from memory the Landrover has 1350 UJ’s these have a short term rating of 1240 ft lb and continuous rating of 309 ft lb according to the books I found at Mothers.

The flange diameter of a 1350 is roughly 5 inches, what’s the biggest diameter you could fit in?

I fully know what you mean about them not looking anywhere near big enough, it just doesn’t look right. However when you look at how much this stuff is over engineered perhaps it’s a suitable solution. It’s not only the Japs that can make things smaller, lighter and stronger.

The comment by Grumpy on this forum - that their are alternatives to making use of the DVLA facilities to SORN on a annual basis is most interesting , BUT is he correct with this comment ? It is all very well scribing with a officious style , however I am now satisfied he has been wrong with some comments, need to determine the truth with the same documents the DVLA briefs have to hand..

 

If he is then the words illegal entrapment, intimidation and embezzelement come to mind..

Which comments have I been wrong with, I have only stated my own experiences with the DVLA

Taken from “The Road Vehicles (Statutory Off-Road Notification) Regulations 1997”

Section 2- interpretation

2.(1) In these Regulations—

“the 1994 Act” means the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994;

“keeper” in relation to a vehicle means the person by whom the vehicle is kept;

“the required declaration” means a declaration in writing made to the Secretary of State by a person surrendering a vehicle licence or the keeper of a vehicle to the effect that (except for use under a trade licence) he does not for the time being intend to use or keep the vehicle on a public road and will not do so without first taking out a vehicle licence (or if appropriate a nil licence) for the vehicle;

“the required particulars” in relation to a vehicle are particulars furnished in writing to the Secretary of State of—

a) the registration mark of the vehicle;

b) the make and model of the vehicle; and

c) the address of the premises at which the vehicle is to be kept; and

“vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is—

a) registered in the records kept under the 1994 Act by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency on behalf of the Secretary of State; and

b) kept in Great Britain,

and a reference to a vehicle which is “unlicensed” is to a vehicle for which no vehicle licence is for the time being in force.

Read it for yourself here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/contents/made

Thanks Mike.

Would this be a good time to review the definition of laden/unladen? :readpaper::readbook::banghead:

Simple, laden = tyres flat at the bottom :nut:

Interesting, but how is the MAM of a trailer worked out, say for example it is an old one, before id plates etc?

Stop loading it when the tyres go bang :cool2:

The following new wording on certificates is being recommended by the Association of British Insurers to combat deliberate uninsured driving.

 

‘Excluding use to secure the release of a motor vehicle(s) other than the vehicle(s) identified above by its registration mark, which has been seized by, or on behalf of, any Government or Public Authority.’

 

This means that if someone has been using a vehicle that is not on the Motor Insurance Database as an insured vehicle, relying on the DOC extension of their own insurance with this type of certificate wording, they would not be able to get the car released from police custody and it would stand a chance of being crushed.

If you can demonstrate you are covered for third party loses the vehicle cannot be seized, carry your certificate with you.

Also the police have to have reasonable cause to you having no insurance before they seize, they know the MIB is crap. Be adamant that you are insured; get them to telephone your insurance if they don’t believe you.

Hold on is this being introduced as a new law, or is it DVLA making new rules up to make money, just like having to re SORN each year which is not law but a DVLA money earner.

Have a look here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_186696?CID=Continuous_Insurance&PLA=DM&CRE=Furl

First paragraph:

From early 2011 a new scheme is being introduced to make sure that all vehicles stay insured or a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is made. The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) and the Motor Insurers’ Bureau (MIB) are working together to reduce the number of uninsured drivers

Scheme by the DVLA & MIB, nothing regarding new legislation or being passed through the House of Commons.

Summary:

From early 2011, if it appears from the database comparison that a vehicle has no insurance or no SORN, a letter will be sent to the registered keeper.

If the keeper takes no action, the keeper faces:

A fixed penalty fine of £100

court prosecution and be fined up to £1,000

having the vehicle clamped, seized and destroyed

“If the keeper takes no action” This is the money spinner, there will be a box to tick to confirm the vehicle is not being used, send it back hear no more. Bet lots of letters don’t get delivered to the registered keepers.

Its bad enough being ripped off by the government without these privateers chipping in.:mad:

Comparing Landrover engine output to Scammell engine output is meaningless in this situation.

As Mike says the propshaft of a Landrover is between the gearbox and axle, only when the Landrover is being used in 4th gear high box is the propshaft subjected to torque equal to the engines output. In lower gears the propshaft sees substantially more torque.

I would have though torque levels a propshaft sees on a Landrover V8 is more than it would be subjected to on the back of a 180 Gardener or whatever you have stuffed in the front of your Scammell.

Might be wrong but the following is based on a 3.9 V8, R380 gearbox & LT230 transfer box.

The torque available to the driving axle is the engine torque multiplied by gear reduction through the gearbox.

231 lb ft x 3.39 (gearbox) x 3.21 (transfer box) = 2,514 lb ft

Thanks Lee

:banghead: If it is not being used it doesn't need insurance. You have to have TAX + INSURANCE or SORN.

You haven’t understood what I am trying to get at :computerrage:

Currently only the driver of a vehicle has to be insured, not the vehicle as per the wording of the RTA.

Therefore if you have a vehicle that is taxed but not insured you are ok so long as you don’t use it, further more it can be used by someone you lend it to if they have third party cover to drive other vehicles.

My question is does this situation change with the new legislation and will the RTA be revised yet again or is it just a DVLA whim.

If trade plates are nothing to do with insurance then why do you drive a test car with valid tax and number plates with Trade plates fitted?

 

I guess it's so the Police know who's driving the car, as it's not the registered keeper who has sold it?

If a vehicle has current VED there is no need for a trader to use trade plates

This may be a foolish question too those who know, but here goes.

Can 16.00-20 tyres be fitted to 14.00-20 AEC Matador rims, or is a 16.00-20 tyre much larger?:red:

Only the Mk 3 Recovery Militant has 16:00 tyres fitted and they have wider 3 piece wheels to accommodate them. Even with the wider rims they are tight, but you might get them on with a lots and lots of swearing. Where are you based, I have a spare off the rim tyre you could try your rim on as a test fit.

Would have thought the bigger problem would be the reduction in turning circle due to the tyres hitting the chassis, the Matador hasn’t got the best turning circle in the world with standard tyres on.

Good way of upping the gearing tho.

The new continuous insurance legislation only applies to:

 

It has always been the vehicle that has to be insured with a named driver.

 

Most policies allow you to drive another vehicle third party insured with restrictions.

 

New drivers or young drivers generally do not get this luxury.

 

Trader policies along with showman policies are different.

 

That's why they have to display trade plates in addition to the normal plates on the vehicle.

It’s the driver that is required to be insured not the vehicle. Exact wording from the Road Traffic Act:

a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road [F1or other public place] unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act,

Full act here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/contents

If a vehicle is not being used no insurance is required, my question is does this change with the new legislation?

Trade plates are nothing to do with insurance; they allow an untaxed vehicle to be driven on the road for associated business purposes. In essence they are like a transferable tax disk.

This is the only laid up vehicle I have that is not SORN , it is the one I was told by the authorities that it does not need SORN. However - if Grumpy is in fact correct - then it does need SORN.

 

It would be appreciated if Grumpy could post any correspondence references ref. his case , that I could quote to them alongside my similar case and ask why the discrepancy in their reply.

 

This highlights what could be unresolved SORN issues , and they are experimenting soon with SORN2

Sorry I can only go on what I was told by Birmingham DVLA when I handed the documents over. Even though the vehicle had not been on the road since 1985, I was told I had to SORN it as soon as I received the logbook in my name. The log book I handed over was the old blue V5, perhaps its because the logbook had to be updated to the new V5C logbook.

The only thing I can find on the Gov. Website is here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/DG_4022058

It does confirm that if you buy a vehicle that already has a SORN made by the previous keeper, that SORN will come to an end on the date you buy the vehicle. You must make a new SORN if you are keeping the vehicle untaxed off the public road. You cannot transfer a SORN

My case was back in 2006 so perhaps the rules have changed since.

I thought it was a lot more than £10,000 but i dont know. Pretty much as Police forces work i think also the armed forces????. I thought a bond was deposited with lloyds then you stood all claims against you

I believe it is actually £500,000.

Latest copy of the Road Traffic Act states £10,000, but I haven’t checked if there are any updates.

Public service vehicles such as police cars are named as exempt in the act.

In most cases the vehicles are specified in the policy, or you can get a policy covering any driver for a specific car. A motor traders policy is basicly intended to enable them to run a business.

 

The "driving other vehicles" is a bonus on some fully comp policies, you were obviously aware that you had it, and carried it with you. When the police, quite correctly, stopped you, you were able to produce it, so whats the problem?

There isn’t a problem but it’s an example of exactly what this thread is about. The bike was taxed and MOT’ed but not insured, the owner was keeping it off road. However it was perfectly legal to take on the road by me because I had third party cover even though the bike its self had no insurance.

Presently it’s the driver that requires insurance not the vehicle, all I am asking is this going to change?

The last business policy I had for a non motor related business just stated on the certificate “any vehicle being used by the policy holder” and under drivers “any one driving with permission of the policy holder”

All we had to do was list the vehicles that had been driven on a monthly return, the monthly premium was then varied depending what had been driven.

Double post

======================================

 

Something wrong with this post :-

Quote this sentence.

Even if it was taken off the road before SORN came in, when there is a change of keeper you have to SORN it.

----------

 

You had me running for a file to check - this is a comment that keeps getting re-cycled and is wrong...

 

Regarding a vehicle purchased by self 1996 , that had been laid up off the road since 1984..

 

I queried this point with the DVLA and have correspondence from J. Punchard Customer Enquiries Group.

 

States.

 

The scheme only applies to vehicles where a tax disc expired on or after 31 January 1998. As your vehicle was untaxed on this date, it does not fall into the SORN scheme. It will only become liable to SORN if it is re-taxed and then subsequently taken off the road.

 

regards

That’s the opposite of what I was told by Birmingham DVLA. Just to complicate things further the different answer might be because the vehicle I had purchased was on the old V5 log book not a V5C.

Its not unusual getting different answers from different offices in DVLA, in fact you can get different answers from the same office, even in writing.

It seems to me that the vast majority of people have no problems when dealing with the likes of VOSA and DVLA but a few people have endless issues. I can't help but wonder why this small minority are unfortunate enough to have a problem every time they buy a vehicle or renew a tax disk.

There are probably several reasons such as

Some local offices are better than others

Giving too much information

Giving too little information

Knowing less than the person you are dealing with

Above all its all about attitude and how you treat people, if I take some happy pills before I deal with them I don’t have a problem. Dealing with fools can be difficult at times.:nut:

Oh right, thanks. Now I am not sure weather I need to down load another form and send again, or weather they would have done that after they changed the log book details?

Thanks again for putting me wise.

Andy.

No they wont have SORN it for you, another money spinning scam. :undecided:

You can SORN it on line here:

http://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/

Just click on declare SORN, you will need to document reference number off your logbook.

Do you mean getting a plating certificate, or passing an MOT?

Ok then, lets see if I have got this right.

 

1 vehicle insured, taxed and MOT'd on the road all ok.

 

2 vehicle sorned and off the road so no insurance needed.

 

3 vehicle off the road before sorn came into effect never been sorned no insurance needed.

Yes but remember if a vehicle was taken off the road before SORN came in and there is a change in keeper, you then you have to sorn it as soon as the logbook is issued in the new keepers name.

Must admit I did not know what to do when I bought my Airportable project in Nov. 2010.

Sent off my slip of log book, read what was on line regards SORN. Still a little confused so down loaded the SORN form and sent as well as the slip. Had my new log book but nothing to confirm at all any thing regards SORN. May be I did not need to as the Landi. had been off the road for 16years. But I did in case.

Andy.

You cannot SORN it until the log book has been issued in your name, you have to wait until the logbook arrives then you can SORN it.

Even if it was taken off the road before SORN came in, when there is a change of keeper you have to SORN it. Same applies if you acquire a vehicle that is part way through the twelve month SORN period, when the new log book is issued the existing SORN is canceled and you have to re SORN. Just because the previous keeper signed and agreed to keep the vehicle off the road, he has no control once the vehicle has been sold on.

The problem is the government bring in new legislation then DVLA enhance it by adding their own conditions. Much the same as SORN, there is no legal requirement to re SORN your vehicle each year, this is purely a requirement imposed by DVLA if you use their services to comply with the government legislation. However once you sign a DVLA form you are entering into contract with the DVLA agreeing to renew each year. But because the form you sign does not include full disclosure of conditions this contract cannot be enforced.

The best thing we can all do is cut DVLA out and deal direct with the government and explain why we won’t use their private run for profit contracted agent.

Another problem some may encounter are those who choose not to insure their vehicle and have deposited £10,000 with the Secretary of State. This is the legal alternative to third party insurance to drive a vehicle and covers you to drive any vehicle no matter who it belongs to, so long as you have the owner’s permission.