Grumpy

Found on the DVLA Web site

“The unladen weight of a commercial vehicle is its weight when not carrying goods”.

The definition of unladen weight stated by DVLA includes the body and all parts necessary for the vehicle to operate normally on a road, excluding water, fuel or other substances used to power the vehicle.

So should the question be what constitutes “Goods”

But according to DVLA the vehicle becomes laden when water, fuel or other substances used to power the vehicle is added.

Taking the wording literally it seems technically impossible to drive a vehicle laden.

lol lol lol

 

So back to Eastblock's question then - what constitutes UNLADEN?............

Not Laden with goods or burden - sorry

I thought the subject was pre-1960 large vehicles (presumably taxed as Historic ?), and what constituted 'unladen'?

 

I'm sure that for most of us minions it will be quite acceptable to regard Scammells, Wards etc as just that - not recovery or locomotive. :-)

Your right, but Eastblock did state he drove his truck on a B licence due to it being pre 1960 a goods vehicle

 

Recovery vehicles, tractors, locomotives, pre 1960 vehicles used unladen, are all clearly goods vehicles as are tower wagons, engineering plant, road construction machinery, since all are discussed in the proposed removal of MOT exemption for GOODS VEHICLES consultation document.

Clearly affected are Diamond T 980/981. Although pre 1960, there exeption is not based on being a pre 1960 vehicle, used unladen. These are not goods vehicles, they are locomotives, not being designed, themselves, to carry a load. At the moment exempy due to being a Loco. that is prposed to change.

 

Diamond T 969, currently exempt, (recovery vehicle) but due to become mandatory tested.

 

 

Hmm make your mind up

:rofl:

This subject has been done to daeth about twenty times in recent history, each time a conclusion has been reached, then someone starts a new thread, asking the same question, It has all been covered before, I am getting sick and tired of going round in circles. It has all been said, just use the search engine to find past posts, I acn't see anypoint doing it all over again. I have nothing to add, sorry Grumpy i think you are wrong for the reasons i ahve said many times in the past.

We’ll agree to disagree then – time for a pint

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sorry Mike typo, meant driving on a B licence – you’re quite right - again :-D

These vehicles are in my opinion locomotives, and locomotives are goods vehicles, they do not carry the goods, but they tow trailers that do. Just because they don't have a trailer attached it doesn't stop them being either a locomotive, or a goods vehicle. Remeber the exemtion both for testing and licensing Pre 1960is used unladen, and not drawing a laden trailer.

 

As discussed previously, The exemption from plating and testing says "Motor vehicle" first used before 1960, it does not say, goods vehicle first used etc

 

Ward and Scammell are clearly both "Motor vehicles"

It is true that legally a recovery vehicle is classed as a locomotive when towing a trailer, but I can’t see how any recovery vehicle can be classed as a goods vehicle and as much be driven on a B licence.

The topic is not MOT exemption but driving a vehicle over 3,500kg on a B licence.

Have we not established that the pre-1960 MOT exemption is for any vehicle over 3.5 tonnes, not just goods vehicles? I refer you to the conversion of Antarmike to this philosophy in the MOT Exemptions thread - somewhere around the page 11 point?

The wording in both MOT exemption and B licences for pre 1960 clearly states Goods Vehicle.

It’s quite worrying, as there are lots of people out there driving pre 1960 vehicles that are not goods vehicles, all the recovery vehicles Wards, Scammell’s etc. is just one group of vehicles.

I can’t find the SI that covers it just VOSA’s INF52, perhaps someone here could clarify it?

The criteria you cite is for MOT exemption. If you are within this then you are fine. The issue is whether you can take camping equipment with you and still regard the vehicle as 'unladen' - see my thoughts here at post #208:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16828-MOT-Testing-Exemptions-Consultation-VERY-IMPORTANT/page21

 

What's being suggested is, as an alternative, meeting one of the alternative groupings for MOT exemption, namley for 'living van'. This may be an option for some, but not for most. In the meantime, ambiguity remains as to what constitutes 'unladen'.

The criteria I have cited is for driving a vehicle over 3,500 kg on an ordinary B (car) licence. Taken from VOSA booklet INF52 “Special Licensing Arrangements for Drivers of Large Vehicles”. It may also be the same as contained on V112G MOT exemption form.

If you convert your goods vehicle by the fitment of fixtures and fittings as per the first post in this thread into a Living van or motor caravan it can no longer be driven on a B licence if over 3,500 kg whether pre 1960 or not, also quoted in the first post of this thread. It may however still be exempt from MOT / Plating if it complies with the criteria for Living Van.

Different dates for vehicles and trailers, for an MJ both siderails and under-run are, vehicles used from 1st April 1984.

War and peace from VOSA regarding Siderails and Under-run protection:

Sideguards – Application:

· Motor Vehicles first used from 1 April 1984 with a design gross weight exceeding 3,500kg and where the distance between the centres of any two consecutive axles exceeds 3m.

· Trailers manufactured from 1 May 1983 with an unladen weight exceeding 1,020kg and where the distance between the centres of any two consecutive axles exceeds 3m; or in the case of a semi-trailer, where the distance between the centre of the kingpin position and the centre of the foremost axle exceeds 4.5m.

· Semi-Trailers manufactured before 1 May 1983 which have a design gross weight exceeding 26,000kg and which form part of an articulated vehicle with a design gross train weight exceeding 32,520kg and where the distance between the centre of the kingpin and the centre of the foremost axle exceeds 4.5m. Where more than one kingpin is fitted it is the distance from the rearmost position which is taken into account.

Sideguards – Exemptions:

· A vehicle or trailer constructed so that it can be unloaded by part of the vehicle being tipped sideways or rearwards.

· A vehicle or trailer designed solely for use in connection with street cleaning, the collection/ disposal of refuse or the contents of gullies/ cesspools. (Skip carrying vehicles are classed as refuse vehicles and as such are exempt).

· A trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry round timber, beams or girders, being items of exceptional length.

· Tractor units.

· A vehicle or trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted to carry other vehicles loaded onto it from the front or rear. (Vehicles with a standard flat body fitted with a "beaver tail" are not exempt).

· A trailer with a load platform which is not more than 750mm from the ground throughout that part of its length under which a sideguard would have to be fitted.

· A semi-trailer incorporating a sliding bogie.

· A rigid motor vehicle or trailer designed for and constructed for the special purpose of carrying long (but not exceptionally long) timbers from an off road location in a forest.

Under-run – Application:

• Motor Vehicles with a design gross weight exceeding 3,500kg and first used from 1 April 1984; or Trailers manufactured from 1 May 1983 with an unladen weight exceeding 1,020kg.
  

Under-run – Exemptions:

• Tractor units.
  

• A vehicle or trailer fitted at the rear with apparatus specially designed for spreading material on a road.
  

• A vehicle or trailer so constructed that it can be unloaded by part of the vehicle being tipped rearwards.
  

• A vehicle or trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry other vehicles loaded onto it from the rear. (Vehicles with a standard flat body fitted with a "beaver tail'' are not exempt).
  

• A trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry round timber, beams or girders, being items of exceptional length.
  

• A vehicle or trailer fitted with a tail lift so constructed that a lift platform, with a minimum length of 1m, forms part of the floor of the vehicle.
  

• A vehicle specially designed, and not merely adapted, for the carriage and mixing of concrete.
  

I was under the impression that the criteria for driving a pre 1960 vehicle over 3,500 kg on a full B (car) licence was:

"A goods vehicle manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer"

Now if you convert your goods vehicle to a motor caravan or living van, it’s no longer a goods vehicle.

What’s the consensus on here regarding this? Same applies for other non goods, pre 1960 vehicles such as Scammell Explorers etc.

 

Frankly i am more confused now than before i read this thread

 

 

 

Problem is people are quoting from different regulations; the rules for carrying out vehicle recovery under construction and use regulations are different to those under STGO and as usual sometimes contradict each other. You cannot just pick the best bits from each you are either complying with one or the other.

Mike I used that method in the past on older trucks on steel, where you have an idea of the axle loading by just looking. Bit more difficult on air, it’s very easy to blow a bag and then you’re in lots of trouble.:blush:

Recovering a laden 8 wheeler is problematic

 

.

The main problem recovering a laden 8 legger is down to axle weights of the front axle. Normally on the road, the weight of the front end of the vehicle is shared between the two front axles. When you try and pick up with a suspended tow, the weight of the front end (minus a bit, but not much) is placed upon just the front axle, usually putting it grossly over its rating.

Exactly, what a minefield. Perhaps recovery crews should all use Militant mk3s and push casualties with the built in push pads rather than towing. Now that would get VOSA going.:-D

Don’t you think I get enough hassle as it is; the incident of a Militant pulling a wheelie over a police car had nothing to do with me :nut:

Part 1 states you can CARRY or tow with a recovery vehicle.

Carry by means of a recovery trailer or loaded on a recovery vehicle.

Tow by means of suspended tow, ridged bar, bit of baling twine etc.

Part 2 states you can only tow a reasonable distance to clear the highway, you can CARRY as far as you like.

Sounds like the coil has gone short circuit - Unusual tho

Hmmm Speckle Hen, now your talking, forget all this nato green stuff lets talk about the important things in life:-D

I think you are okay to tow, but be aware that when someone is recovering a vehicle (as a commercial operator of a vehicle registered as Road Recovery) they are only allowed to tow it the shortest distance to get the casualty to a safe place, or the nearest place where it can be repaired. If you have a chosen garage where you want it repaired, and there happens to be one nearer that could do the work, then you have to take it to the nearest, not the one of your choice.

 

Likewise, according to the law, a vehicle, taxed as recovery cannot legally tow a casualty all the way to the owners home, if there is a nearer place of safety, or a place where it can be repaired nearer than the persons home.

 

Once recovered to a place of safety or the closest place where it can be repaired, if it is decided to take it to the persons home, it cannot legally be done on a recovery road tax, the car needs to be put on a trailer and towed by a vehicle taxed PLG PHGV whatever, or put Beaver tail vehicle with similar tax disc.

 

This rule is largely flouted by most recovery operators, including the two major motorists assistance organisations.

 

 

Light blue touch paper and retire immediately......

Are you sure Mike ?

Exert from STGO regulations Schedule 4 Part 4

7. - (1) Except as stated in sub-paragraph (2), a road recovery vehicle may carry or tow a disabled vehicle or vehicle-combination when conveying it to a destination in accordance with the instructions of the owner or driver of the vehicle or when conveying it to an appropriate destination for repair.

(2) Where a recovery of a disabled vehicle or vehicle-combination is effected by using a drawbar or lift-and-tow method, the road recovery vehicle must not carry or tow the disabled vehicle or vehicle-combination any further than is reasonably necessary in order to clear any road obstructed by it and to facilitate the use of roads by other persons.

The large blue chip company I work for run a fleet of 80 ageing DAF CF85 artic tractors of which at least 2 break down with major issues most weeks. We have a contract with a large well known recovery company who are quite happy to suspend tow an artic however far and to whatever destination we want, completely flouting current legislation. To the best of my knowledge there have never been any prosecutions.

Yes but don’t tell everyone, this forum has already been quoted in various correspondents between VOSA and organisations trying to keep our hobby viable. :nono:

I might be wrong, i don't know, we had a thread about this a while ago, but now we can'y (or at least I can't) do a serch and end up with the actual post rather than the thread it is in, I can't find it.

 

The vehicle excise duty regs do allow a recovery vehicle to move a casualty from where it was first taken for repair, to another location where it can be repaired or scrapped, so maybe I am wrong, but it seems yet again there is a disparity between C and U regs, and Excise duty regs, which to my eyes do not seem to be singing from the same songsheet, (yet again)

 

I am beginning to wish I hadn't tried to answer this query, but rather left it to someone else!

 

My head hurts....and I have a speckled hen wuith my name on it.....

Mike, a recovery vehicle can be used to take another vehicle to a place of repair / scrapped, but the rules still apply to the suspend / straight bar tow regarding reasonable distance. If the place of repair is not within a reasonable distance you have to trailer it or use a transporter. VOSA are still getting their knickers in a twist regarding beavertails etc. saying they must be MOTed, which they don’t if used solely for recovery purposes and that includes taking to a place of repair. The grey area is transporting to someone’s home, can this be a place of repair?

Not if that's the exhaust coming out on that side!

Still got the original air filter on there though :cool2:

hi , if you need bits I know of an other one in a Scrapyard.

Hi Maurice,

Yes definitely need some spares, from the picture the radiator and driver’s windscreen would be very useful. Where about is the Scammell, you can PM the details if the location is sensitive.

Thanks Scott :thumbsup: