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BlueBelle

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Posts posted by BlueBelle


  1. BlueBelle said:
    Shall we have a Saladin now? Yes, let's as it seems an in vogue topic. :)

    Rather fetching, don't you think? Brand new, fresh Light Stone livery, as indeed were all the Saladins.

    No problems with markings here either! The RAC flash has stencilled (crudely) in the white band '2 R TKS'. The Trip Dist flash is, at this point, a rectangular version. It changed and changed back and changed again and it appeared to be a right hodge podge of rectangles and shields, some with dhows missing a mast and sail, some dhows facing east instead of west! There is a 4"x4" (or 6"x6"?) RAC silver and black tank badge flash on the mantlet to the side of the main gun barrel and a much smaller version in the barrel end cap. Notice there's no bridge plate! I know it did arrive in Homs with one on the front wheel guard, a yellow circle and a number 11 in black though rather an odd font similar to an earlier Saladin I posted earlier. Can you see a neat O on the turret? Yes, Cyclops sqn and there's a 2A inside the O. This means it was the 2 Troop Sgt's Saladin though it soon became the Troop Leader's with the 2 Troop Sgt (Trevor Dady :)) being allocated 07BB34 'Cheetah'.

    The Saladin shown soon also received a name, as did every armoured vehicle eventually except those of Badger who for an unknown reason, never named them. 'Coyote' in 4" white lettering on a black rectangle painted low down under the callsign on either side of the turret. Ajax sqn, in the beginning, and being 'different', had a smaller version of the name plate, one either side of the driver's vision blocks (see my 'Afridi' Saladin photo earlier) and they relocated their silver and black RAC badges from the mantlet to the front wheel guard.

    Oh look! There's Ajax behind Cyclops and, in the background, the Braithwaite tower.:D

    Photo by John Empson REME.

    Oh! Look again! It's THAT Saladin, now 6 months 'old' trundling gingerly down the escarpment towards the Tummo waterhole on Ex Crescent Moon. They had to get up it on the way back! Now, notice just how much of a difference in appearance 6 months make! I'll let you, dear viewer contribute by telling us of the visible differences :laugh:

    Aren't Light Stone Saladins particularly delightful to behold!

    Photo by Trevor Dady 2RTR

     


  2.  

    Notice the 'near the radiator' spotlights on two of the Scammells and that two of them have a dangly thing hanging down off the cab roof above the windscreen.

    Photo by John Newton REME.

     

    The dangly thing is a giant REME capbadge casting or molding! :laugh: I looked at the master photo, a big one, and saw them quite clearly. Also, one of the Scammells appears on another photo at its previous unit, 10 Base Ord Depot Geneifa, Egypt which closed in Jan. 1956.


  3. Shall we have a Saladin now? Yes, let's as it seems an in vogue topic. :)

    Rather fetching, don't you think? Brand new, fresh Light Stone livery, as indeed were all the Saladins.

    No problems with markings here either! The RAC flash has stencilled (crudely) in the white band '2 R TKS'. The Trip Dist flash is, at this point, a rectangular version. It changed and changed back and changed again and it appeared to be a right hodge podge of rectangles and shields, some with dhows missing a mast and sail, some dhows facing east instead of west! There is a 4"x4" (or 6"x6"?) RAC silver and black tank badge flash on the mantlet to the side of the main gun barrel and a much smaller version in the barrel end cap. Notice there's no bridge plate! I know it did arrive in Homs with one on the front wheel guard, a yellow circle and a number 11 in black though rather an odd font similar to an earlier Saladin I posted earlier. Can you see a neat O on the turret? Yes, Cyclops sqn and there's a 2A inside the O. This means it was the 2 Troop Sgt's Saladin though it soon became the Troop Leader's with the 2 Troop Sgt (Trevor Dady :)) being allocated 07BB34 'Cheetah'.

    The Saladin shown soon also received a name, as did every armoured vehicle eventually except those of Badger who for an unknown reason, never named them. 'Coyote' in 4" white lettering on a black rectangle painted low down under the callsign on either side of the turret. Ajax sqn, in the beginning, and being 'different', had a smaller version of the name plate, one either side of the driver's vision blocks (see my 'Afridi' Saladin photo earlier) and they relocated their silver and black RAC badges from the mantlet to the front wheel guard.

    Oh look! There's Ajax behind Cyclops and, in the background, the Braithwaite tower.:D

    Photo by John Empson REME.

     


  4. A circle...of course.

    I was already aware of the a/b/c squadron markings.

    Not sure why I didn't see that.

     

    I don't know what the NAM is.

    I dont know what Pukka markings are.

     

    Pukka = real, genuine. Also associated with a brand of pie favoured by Britons, probably soldiers too.

    NAM = National Army Museum (London)

     

    The Tank Museum and regimental archives will hold photos of Saladins in pukka markings.:)


  5. Unfortunately I still have no idea what insignia we are referring to (I can see three on that Saladin in that photo)

    or what any of them actually looked like (re that photo).

     

    Although, the front fender flash is probably understood at this point.

    So I assume we are talking about the one on the right (of the two on the turret)?

    Since the one on the left looks like it is another Rose.

     

    I found a website: http://sharpshooters.org.uk/Home/ServingRegiments

    but I don't see anything that matches.

    And modern/current insignia is of no help anyway.

     

    My only hope is to find original photos (of any UK Saladin)

    where I can see the insignia flash and can then make my own artist's rendition of it.

     

    The one on the left is not a rose but a simple circle!!! To denote C Sqn. Usually yellow on a DBG/Camo vehicle. Sometimes white. Always black on a Light Stone vehicle.

    A Sqn is a triangle. B Sqn is a square. C Sqn a circle. HQ Sqn is a diamond.

    I have around 90 colour/b&w photos of Saladins, all Light Stone liveried. Of them, around 24 different VRNs. All 2RTR Libya. The majority of them went on to serve there with 14/20H and finally, 5th Skins.

    There is, it seems, another Saladin model manufacturer that provides Tripolitania District Barbary Dhow flashes and the RAC arm of service that has written in the white bar, 4 R Tanks. The model maker is based in Scotland, 4 RTR were a Scottish regiment and a regiment that never served in Libya post-war and never had Saladins there either. Draw your own conclusions!

    Yes, your research into the Saladin and in building it has obviously been meticulous, well done. It looks just like the real thing. Now please do not not spoil it all by creating a fictional unit that operated the vehicle or make it harder than needs be by limiting yourself to a DBG thing based on a couple of fuzzy shots in a dated publication. Museum examples/exhibits are not always presented as they actually were; the worst offender I'm aware of is sadly, The Tank Museum, especially where it comes to representation of those magnificent Centurion tanks. I never bother with any other museums or collections for reference purposes, preferring to obtain original photos from those who 'were there', those 'who served' and balance what I see with the sometimes foggy memories offered. Regimental journals of the period are of great help. I think a trip for you to the archives of the NAM (when open) would produce results.

    Just imagine how upset a purchaser of your magnificent kit would be to discover that it didn't include pukka markings!

    Maybe a little more research, difficult as it may prove, is needed before you commit on the choice of markings?:)


  6. Whilst researching, I found this at the IWM and, whilst delighted it was at the barracks, Tigne, where in 1963 I went to school and came last in the egg n' spoon race on sports day, I was even more delighted as it shows that everything on this vehicle is Light Stone, yes, sand, sand and more sand. A bit of silver and more sand. Not a sniff of sky blue or eau de nil. Or any other colour!

    The vehicle is easy to identify as I saw the description :D though you may struggle, perhaps?

    Photo credit IWM website.

    Tigne Barracks Wksp REME Malta 1963-Photo credit IWM.jpg


  7. the insignia looks like the Tudor rose not connected but the Westminster Dragoons used Saladins

    Not sure where we're going with the roses as there are so many web and book interpretations (and contradictions) of them to consider though the photo I've shown does represent Catterick District as I have photos of vehicles endorsed as being in Catterick Command and in named Catterick barracks, albeit much earlier, sporting the same or similar. The insignia is derived perhaps from the WW2 49th (West Riding) Division flash which is similar though just black and white. I have a feeling you may know lots more than I on the rose flashes Wally, so do please tell.

    Yes, the Berkshire & Westminsters, the bain of the Royal Tank Regiment to whom they were affiliated. I had conveniently forgotten about them, though I have it on record that 2RTR used to receive a squadron of their soldiers, minus any Saladins/Saracens/Ferrets for annual camp to undertake all sorts of field training on RTR Saladins that were handed over to them. Did the W&BDs ever have their own Saladins on unit strength? 2RTR were always glad when the W&BD returned to their 'home base' as they left behind them a tank park full of VOR 2RTR Saladins. I may have said this elsewhere on here, that I have a photo of such a wrecked Saladin on top of someone's car in a town centre. No, the parking bays were not full. :)


  8. Flower shaped insignia (on the Turret of the previous Saladin) must be the same as this one.

    Can anyone identify the decal itself.

     

    Saladin is of the Queen's Own Hussars 'A' Squadron

    but I can't seem to find a decal or insignia matching this look and shape.

     

    (This particular Saladin would be a good choice for my kit,

    if i can nail down the correct markings.)

     

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]123802[/ATTACH]

    You should look here for regimental history/locations (other sources are available):

    http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk/regimental_history.htm

    I think it's this:

    The regiment certainly served in Catterick as the RAC Training Regiment (not necessarily the whole regiment) and would have sported the Catterick District flash, a Yorkshire Rose as in my photo. Trick is to find another photo of a Catterick-based RAC Training Regiment vehicle to see and compare what it had for a command/district flash.

    The regiment’s name, in some way, or other term, would have been painted onto the white band on top of the RAC Arm of Service flash. The turret may have borne the regiment’s badge, as did QDG Saladins and tanks when in the same role at Catterick.

    Can you see The White Horse of Hannover? I can, and it may have a garter blue background. See, it’s on the gun barrel end cap! A small garter blue rectangular with a white horse may have been worn as flash on the lower glacis, as all armour did when running around as 3rd King’s Own Hussars (Conquerors, Centurions and Dingos - DBG). Check whether or not your Saladin should also be sporting a New Zealand Fern Leaf!

    Why don’t you settle for something simpler, paint it Light Stone and represent your Saladin as a 2RTR one, Libya 1959-62. So easy!

    Catterick Garrison formation flash.jpg

    3 KOH whitehorse garter blue flash.jpg


  9. The sword and crown is the London DISTRICT sorry cannot make out the second one

     

    London District operators of Saladins, were to the best of my limited knowledge, only ever The Household Cavalry.

    Blues & Royals, methinks. There were several varieties, same shape with or without squiggly bit protruding on base. Some had, in the middle, EIIR or an eagle. Guess it depended too, on year.


  10. Now, staying in the year of 1956 :-) with another Tripoli unit, we'll take a peek at a row of Scammell Explorers and Diamond Ts belonging to either 19 Armd or 5 Med Workshop REME. Can't see the old faithfulls there (94BD17 or 27). How do I know its 1956, you may well ask? Well, this time the photographer not only said as much, though the Arm of Service flash numbers tends to tell me as much ('the senior or only' REME divisional workshop for 10 Armd Div), other photos I have do too and, to a lesser degree, the warpaint 'H' all provide the confirmation.

    Notice the 'near the radiator' spotlights on two of the Scammells and that two of them have a dangly thing hanging down off the cab roof above the windscreen.

    The photographer who 'was there' has kindly supplied me with his photographic collection and full usage rights, so honoured and lucky me! I also have from him some very interesting vehicle photos from late 1955/early 1956 of REME in action in Egypt prior to the British withdrawal pre-Suez invasion. An M32 ARV of 3RHA L.A.D REME looks splendid in Light Stone, yet despite 3RHA M and D batteries departing for Homs, Libya to join J battery who had been there for two years, I can't bring myself to show the photo as its Egypt and this is a Tripolitania Libya thread (for most of the time). If I knew that 3RHA departed Egypt with their M32 ARVs, and that the ARVs did go to Homs, I might be tempted. Oh, I do know from a fuzzy photo that 14/20 Hussars, as part of the newly formed 25 Armd Div in 1952, had M32 'looking' ARVs over at Sabratha (14/20H departed Nov 1955). They may of course, have inherited them from the 4/7 Dragoons though I guess the ARVs never made it to the Queen's Bays once the 14/40H had departed (the Bays there had Centurion ARV Mk1s).

    I do like to see RL Binners sneaking into the views.

    Photo by John Newton REME.

     


  11. while searching files on disc l came across this information the FV 402 IN CANADA is listed as 60 BA 09 ESTABLISHMENT

    number 4791 the one in thread 134 was sent to a range on the 11th july 1958 as a target prototype no2 was KYW36

    and was reduced to scrap on the same date as prototype number one.

    As to the FV 421

    PROTOTYPE NUMBER REGISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT NUMBER FATE DISPOSAL DATE

    ONE 00 CA 22 5707 TARGET 15/12/ 67

    TWO 00 CA 24 5761 TARGET 15/12/67

    THREE 00 CA 26 5762 SOLD 15/12/67

    FOUR MOCK UP 5710 USED FOR RECOVERY 12/3/71

    FIVE 00 CA 24 5711 SCRAPPED 15/8/63

    SIX 00 CA 25 5767 SCRAPPED 1/4/64

    SEVEN 00 CA 28 5785 TARGET 17/6/65

    EIGHT HULL MOCK UP 5766 SCRAPPED 1/4/64

    NINE 00 CA 30 5788 TARGET 15/12/67

    TEN 00 CA 31 5799 TARGET 16/2/68

     

     

    Now we know what happened to them! Thanks for the enlightenment Wally.


  12. The Moggie has the enlarged rear window of the 1000 which dates this photo as post 1956. I first saw a 1000 in 1957 in Tripoli..

    Magnakater QUOTE]

     

    I know nothing about cars though the photos show the unit geared up for war, the 1956 Suez invasion and despite not participating, the vehicles remained thus marked, with a H and in use like that for well up to a year and in some cases, beyond, or, were as we've seen earlier, parked up and awaiting use as a hard target. The reverse of the photos says 1956 and Wiki tells me the Moggie with the enlarged rear window first appeard in ...... 1956! :embarrassed: The Moggie is not sand coloured anyway!


  13. The original design of Fv421s had the front of the 'cab' in one continuous slope, no window in the only cab door which was on the left side and was hinged on its rear edge. There were no hatches in the cab roof proper but provision for an AA gunner/observer just behind on the centreline of the vehicle. They also had the track idlers very close to the rearmost road wheel.

     

    Later they were modified and possibly some built new with the more vertical windscreen, roof hatches in the two sloping sections of roof directly above driver and co driver, a window in the now front hinged door. Seperately the idler was moved back about 9" to the position shown in the photo in the post above and mounted on a much stronger adjusting mechanism with its pivot below the wheel centre instead of above.

     

     

    I've just noticed that I have a couple of photos of a 421 which has the early sloping front and (assuming that the negatives haven't been reversed) a door on the right hand side.

     

    I don't see anything Bill! :-(

    Maybe you'll post them here? I hope so, though as they're probably not sand-coloured, I shan't be too upset if you don't! ;)


  14. A sense of humour is essential to embrace reality, even in times which may be difficult. Of course, British Army humour is renowned for many things in many ways, much of which we are not allowed to repeat due to the white socks and sandal-wearing PC Forces that have stripped society of basic freedoms. How they get away with this treatment of the majority is beyond me, especially when we, the oppressed, tolerate their abhorrent appearance in their white socks and sandals. Mind you, a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere and I was only surveying an official record from an official archive earlier today when I gasped at the references to Arabs and Italians!!! :shocked::shocking:Yes, you've probably guessed correctly. I'd not heard such terminology in years and yes, dear viewer, I have heard it, not just seen it written. My, we've come a long way since, which of course is a jolly good thing for us all, isn't it? :-D

    So let's have a look at another sand-coloured little delight over at 10 Armd Div Ord Fd Pk somewhere south of Tripoli in 1956. Yes, an MRA1. Oh, I get to use the 'maneuverers' word again though I think they may be lost as 'consultations' are in effect with the, go on, dare me to say it, go on ...... the monkeys! Yes, the divisional Military Police are there with their Landrover. I have no more information about the photo unless I make it up and we don't want that, do we. Notice warpaint (H) is worn and the MRA1 has run hot unless the nose side panel has dropped off somewhere.

    What is that stick thingy on the bumper of the MRA1? Maybe a convoy flag flagpole? A local modification perhaps as I've not seen this on one of these trucks previously.

    Photo by EJT (me).

     


  15. Thanks Sean, especially for your Hippo comments. I had forgotten too that in the run up to Suez, and as on several much earlier occasions, the Libyan Arabs were revolting to some degree against the British (and against the Libyan Jews of whom many were murdered in what's referred to as the Tripoli pogrom) to the extent that British dependents were evacuated from their MQs and hirings into army barracks and thence by fleets of aircraft back to the UK. Dependents all came back early in 1957 after Britain's, France's and Israel's defeat at Suez. Vehicles may have been protected with XPM mesh in Tripoli as I do have accounts of rocks being thrown at British Army trucks and buses where windscreens and windows were smashed. No other photos though.


  16. Just a little bit closer again because the photos you see are not enlarging as sometimes they seem to not want to thus denying us 'full view enlightenment', Grrrr!

    It looks as though the canvas tilt shrunk in a rain storm. Hey! Even the tilt on the Hippo next door has shrunk! Maybe they're not Hippo tilts at all?

    This splendid photo is a gem and you can see all that I've mentioned far better.

     


  17. Let's take a closer view of the caged Hippo.

    I bet that like myself, you've never ever seen a Hippo thus caged!

     

    Was the steel mesh called Dexion XPM? Maybe.

     

    Why was the Hippo caged and not the others? Could it be to protect high-value or attractive items from pilfering, after all, the Hippo was in the Land of Pilfer? If so, why mesh up the cab too?

     

    Or, could it be that this Hippo was a returnee from that other Land of Pilfer across the eastern border, the place where British Forces were told in no uncertain terms to get out of? Possibly, though I do not know if Hippos over there were caged at all, not even to prevent hurled rocks and other projectiles from breaking windscreens and harming soldiers. I can see though that this Hippo at one time had a different Divisional flash with a shortened top unit name bar, judging by what is underneath the standing Rhino.

     

    Or, maybe it has just been specially meshed-up to go to the H war for some reason, and for the answer, we might need an ancient RAOC Vehicle Specialist to supply the answer? Anyone? The RAOC online forum all play doggo when I ask a question.

    This Hippo looks good though!

    Oh, its got little twinned rear wheels so that makes it a Hippo Mk2 .... er, I've forgotten if its A or B! Were the rear wheels smaller than the front ones? I have it all somewhere, but not easy to hand right now.

    The previous photo, this one and a few more I'll post were donated as originals to me by someone who wants to remain anonymous so now they're mine, all mine! Hence,

    Photo copyright EJT (me :laugh:).

     


  18. Well, that's the K9s parked up for now, shelter tents packed away neatly ...... until the next time! :-)

    We certainly learn lots here, don't we? Of course we do, all good stuff as far as I'm concerned.

    Now, we're back in Tripoli, Tripolitania where 10 Armd Div Ord Fd Pk had been formed from the smaller 25 Armd Bde Ord Fd Pk, which, if I'm not misinterpreting the records, had existed in cadre form as part of the parent unit, 595 Ord Depot RAOC Kassala Bks (Mareth Bks pre-1955). The Ord Fd Pk seems to have been located in some other barracks and not with 595 Ord Depot. Could have been they were at Gurgi which seems most likely as the 595 Ord Veh Park were there, sharing 'the land' (a very basic 'barracks' with supposedly, no accommodation blocks though plenty of .... TENTS!) with 19 Armd Wksp REME and 5 Medium Wksp REME. RAOC Journals are so vague and provide no barrack names for units but they do tell you what the football score was having played against some other unit! Paff!

    So, here's the some of the unit lined up in 1956, with their warpaint on (H) ready to go to somewhere they were not allowed to go to after all. Oh, look at all them RL Binners, and even Hippos!

    Some vehicles do not display the 97 on the RAOC arm of service flash which makes me think those were issued from the main Ord or Veh depot to bolster the Ord Fd Pk (97) vehicle numbers.

    What purpose the rectangular concrete arches serve is beyond me, though there are two b&w signs visible with the closest saying 'Receipts'. Perhaps the other says 'Issues' though I'm told that as stores were for storing, there were never any issues!

    Can you see a caged Hippo? I can. A Moggie too!

     


  19. I can certainly see the likeness to the Aldershot & for those who don't have the REME book I attach a scan.

     

    The thing that worries me is that the diagram shows on each side a pair of "windows" in each of the three sections on each side, whereas the Libyan ones have a larger single window in each of the three sections (as does SP No.2)

     

    The diagram shows no windows in the next upper sections yet windows are present on the Libyan ones & SP No.2.

     

    The diagram shows a window either side of the entrance, but on both the Libyan ones & SP No.2 there seem to be no such windows.

     

    It may be too small a detail to record on the diagram but there are no roof ventilators, although quite basic diagrams of wartime large tents & marquees show them. Difficult to see but some are just discernible of the Libyan ones & SP No.2.

     

    Although my picture of Shelter Portable No.2 comes from a 1973 publication it doesn't preclude it from being wartime as the book includes some wartime marquees. I note that the REME wartime book includes SP No.4, so it seems feasible that SP No.2 might have been around back then.

     

     

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]123404[/ATTACH]

     

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]123406[/ATTACH]

     

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]123405[/ATTACH]

    So its not the 'Aldershot' after all!!! I rather liked the shelter being that, but now we know the shelter is actually the Shelter Portable No.2. Does the Shelter Portable No.2 have a more 'familiar' 'handle'?

    Can we see the scale drawing for that 'Aldershot' too, please? The Shelter Portable No.2.


  20. fv1609 said:
    I don't think it can be BC as 43 BC 71 - 99 BC 99 was not used.

     

    BG makes more sense & would make it a signals truck which makes the basic vehicle Bridge Class 4, but some fitted with certain installations were Bridge Class 5. So are they different vehicles or has it changed the type of radio installation between photos?

    I did say we were going to get back to Tripolitania after the Aldershot shelters in Cyrenaica but I just couldn't resist another one from 'there' and this time, its a K9 again! Notice its an FFW and it has a Bridge Class 7. Oh.

    Nor am I going to pretend that the G in the VRN is really a C :shocked: and I'm not going to show you another (as two colour photos of it, front and rear appear earlier in this thread) with both C and G in the VRN (no wonder I'm confused), and, I'm not going to show you another Tripolitania District K9 which may or may not be FFW with a ..... Bridge Class 9 :shocked:. It was Libya, afterall.

    Photo by CH Bloxham REME

     


  21. Clive

    The Aldershot shelter was used in WW2, may pre-date it to. It is detailed in one of the red War Office books on REME, which relates experience gained in wartime. Detailed drawing in it, framework fits the Libya one to a T.

    Thank you Richard and Clive. Now we all know. 'Aldershot' it is. I think perhaps you'd have been hard-pressed to find 40 'willing' pairs of REME hands to put the things up 'quickly'! They'd of had to 'rope' in the squadron troops too, methinks especially as I know that when Ajax 2RTR, as a lone squadron, first was stationed in D'Aosta Barracks where the 'Aldershots' had to be errected, the squadron LAD was a lot less than 40 strong, i.e, just a 'Fitter's Section'. Maybe the 'Aldershots' had already been erected prior to their arrival, perhaps by 'barrack services' (joke!) or was there a previous unit that had vacated?

    Aldershot. Home of the British Army. How appropriate for a shelter (home) name in the desert.

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