Edward53

Just wondering did they ever make a sniper smock in the sparse desert print?

It seems unlikely. "Sparse" ddpm only appears on the first desert uniforms (1990-91) and some slightly later privately-made windproofs that copied the gaberdine SAS/Arctic smock. "Sparse" ddpm was presumably a brief experiment that was considered unsatisfactory, as no further issue items were made in it. Going by the polycotton of this sniper smock and this maker who doesn't show up on combat clothing before the end of the 90s at earliest, that print variant was well out of use by the time of its manufacture.

I think a good unmodified pre-1982 bergen without names written all over the outside will still make the money if properly described. The vast majority of para / SAS bergens on ebay are either 1982 and so probably Falklands replacements, or mid to late 80s. Also the understanding of contract numbers doesn't yet seem to have spread very widely. There's been a well-used but perfectly ok para bergen c. 1975 sitting on ebay for months that seems to have escaped general notice and could probably be got quite reasonably. And no, it's not mine nor does it belong to one of my friends. I'd have bought it myself if I didn't already have two good early ones.

This rucksack is unlikely to be worth more than a tenner at best. It is a Rucksack GS (General Service) designed in the 1970s to replace the 58 pattern large pack once the powers that be finally accepted that this wasn't much use. Yours is missing the frame. The same frame was used for the Clansman radio set and for the larger "para" bergen / SAS rucksack, issued to paras, marines, SF and anyone else likely to need a larger load. The GS rucksack is seldom used these days for its original purpose as, basically, it wasn't that great and lots of better alternatives, notably the SAS rucksack, are readily available. About its only value is as a Falklands War collectable if it has a pre-1982 date and even then it's unlikely to achieve a high price. If it's marked anywhere it'll be under the lid, but from the colouring this one looks like a mid-late 80s model.

You say "they" which implies you have several of these. The other version is made of a less plasticy material, is larger, the lid does up with ties instead of buckles and the side pockets have press studs to fold them away. These are much more desirable but seem to go for wildly varying prices on ebay, so it's pot luck.

where abouts on yours is the printing that you show on the second picture. I have one I am trying to identify.

 

Thanks

 

Robin

Crimped-on strap ends are 1st version, eyeletted strap ends are 2nd version. See the Karkee Web site for a comprehensive overview of web equipment up to and including 58 pattern.

Takes just two crap photos and still gets his price. Somehow that seems like a violation of natural justice!

Weird. That link takes me to my own ebay watch list.

I think they could well be 30s or early WW2. My late father's Fleet Air Arm sunglasses from the 1940s were like this but with just a single curved bridge at the top and without the leather sides. They were in a plain black japanned tin case. On the basis that kit tends to get simplified rather than complicated, I would put these as earlier.

I'll just tiptoe away then :-X :-X :-X

Just dug out a pair of metric 90/104/120 DPM Windproof SAS trs that have a CT1A/1121 code,any ideas please date wise?

The answer is there, on the first page!

Does it look anything like this? James Smith and Co, CT4b/538.

This one's pre-Falklands, as is yours if it's 258. Mine has the usual Newey studs.

There is still plenty of surplus ddpm around, but even at this short distance in time provenanced kit groups to Op Granby veterans have become distinctly scarce. I hope you got his name with it.

Are the trousers the early type with the zip and button fly?

There isn't much room for doubt that the H E Textiles metric smock is from 1979, see my thread on dating items from contract numbers. CT4B/203 must have been a sizeable contract as quite a few of these smocks have turned up on here and on ebay. Here's a barely-used 170/104 (= Size 2) I bought early this year for £40 which I thought was a very good price, not quite in the same bargaindom league as the Size 1 above but early metric smocks are just as valid for the Falklands campaign and still undervalued:

I love it when a really nice item like that comes along AND it's a bargain. Those early dpm smocks are now practically impossible to find at any price.

Welcome Andy, good to see you made it here! :thumbsup: Cheers, E.

Is there a way to augment this info with the big list on the first page? I've been able to add dates in my post because I have the contract samples for those items. Of the two dates on the label, I've added the latest one, assuming it was the date of acceptance or thereabouts.

I've now edited yours into the main list, and many thanks for those contributions. I've left out the "submitted / approved" one though as I'm not sure how that relates to any production date. Also, are you sure CT2A/2282 is 1989? There are no other CT2As near that date - could it be a misreading for 1983?

I've left ?s where the maker name ought to be. Do you have the manufacturer's name for any of these contracts?

Guys, I appreciate the additions but without a corresponding date they aren't really adding to our knowledge of the timeline! It's those rare items with both a date and a contract number that enable us to make a realistic guess at the dates of other contracts.

So, late 90s for regulars and the TA had to wait, as usual. Thanks all.

The Army Rumour Service forum should have the right answer:-

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/union-jack-patches-on-shirts.99399/

Thanks for the link, it's interesting but someone says 80s, someone else says early 90s and everyone is very argumentative so not a lot closer to a clear answer!

Does anyone know when the Union Flag started to be worn on combat clothing in modern times? I'm fairly sure I've seen a Falklands campaign photo of it being worn, but only the one photo and it seems untypical. It reappears on desert clothing and now seems to be universal, but when was it officially introduced?

That is a 1979 contract number so the garment will date from then or perhaps 1980 at the latest.

Very interesting, presumably this is the trials pattern which I believe was used in small numbers in the Falklands?

Nice! Those two must be 1977-78 with that contract number. You see these on ebay every so often but they always seem to be post-1982.

Hi Soulman and welcome to the forum! That number is in the list for NBC trousers, and the smock is presumably part of the same contract. However I didn't have Remploy down as the maker, so thanks for that.

Thanks Rich, and btw your remark about the CT numbers made me notice that I'd forgotten to include CT1A as 1996-97 in the summary above the list.

It would be very welcome if anyone can add further numbers to the list. As a collector of Falklands kit, I'm particularly interested in the CT2/3/4 900s and 1000s. Normally you might expect clothing and particularly equipment to sit on the shelf for at least a few months before being issued, but in the rush to equip the Task Force stocks of new kit were raided, factories worked overtime and kit was delivered straight to units, so early 1982 production could be seen as valid Falklands militaria. The problem is pinning down the month as well as the year.

It's slightly unfortunate that NBC clothing makes up so much of the dated kit, as some of those contracts seem to run for considerable periods, and NBC suits have both a fabric date and a packing date, begging the question which does the contract number apply to? I incline to the packing date, on the grounds that a quantity of fabric is unlikely to match exactly the number of suits in any contract, so that one fabric batch could be used in more than one contract, and one contract could use fabric from more than one batch. I've certainly seen the latter in contract SL34b/0074, which I believe to be the only contract placed for desert NBC suits in the first Gulf War (another area I collect to). I didn't include that contract in the list as I've covered Gulf War contracts at this link [ignore the other links in this post as they are automated ones and not mine, this is the only one you want!].

That makes sense to me, Clive. Re the pre-A/78 contract codes, it's hard to say what they were because I don't recall ever seeing contract numbers on earlier kit.