rewdco
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Posts posted by rewdco
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I second that Ron. But "export" sounds a lot better than "economy" doesn't it...? 😂
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On 1/3/2024 at 7:16 AM, Ron said:
PS. Your frame looks right for the 3S the TH frame was for the 500 and 600cc models and would have been fitted with the bigger forks and tank. The ally parts are correct for a 3S. I think the 3SE (economy model) had tin parts.
Just found this Belgian price list on an auction site. They call the SE version "Export" or "Tourist". Maybe not relevant at all... 😐
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I think I can see some other numbers on the engine, or are my eyes deceiving me?
Could this be (the remains of) the engine number I wonder? They are close to where we would expect an engine number, see example below:
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Small history lesson: On September 1st 1939, Hitler invades Poland. As a reaction, England declares war against Germany on September 3rd 1939. The following months (September 1939 – May 1940) are known as “the phoney war”. On Sept 11th 1939, the British Expeditionary Force (four divisions, 158.000 men) left for France, to defend the borders with Belgium and Germany against a possible German invasion. But until May 1940, when Hitler invaded Holland, Belgium and France, there was not a lot of fighting activity. Both camps were using this period to expand their armies…
A lot of civilian bikes that were in showrooms etc. were pressed into service while still in their “civvy” trim. They were quite often hand painted all over, with whatever paint that was available at the camp where they were taken to. Norman Vanhouse, who was a despatch rider in the British Expeditionary Forces in France and thus an eyewitness, describes in an article in The Classic Motorcycle (October 1989) how the impressed motorcycles were painted:
“... every bike was a drab, dark green spectre of botched painting, self-inflicted whilst parked by the glorious Loire. Tins of paint and brushes had been produced from the lorries in the convoy and each man was charged with painting his own bike. We even entered into the spirit of the occasion by daubing handfuls of roadside dust on the wet paint to achieve more effective camouflage…”The picture below shows an impressed civilian machine (in this case a Norton from Claude Rye’s shop) being collected by the Army (The MotorCycle, December 14th 1939).
This is the page from the “Chilwell List” with the late 1939 - early 1940 impressed motorcycle contracts:
XXXThe fact that WD numbers 40000 to 46000 were “not taken up” contradicts the fact that on this Triumph we can clearly see census number C42589, stamped on the crankcases (typical for that period). Well, it was a hectic period, mistakes must have been made…
Here’s a close one: another impressed civilian Triumph with census number C47377, "somewhere in France” in November 1939:
On May 10th 1940, Hitler invades Belgium and Holland. By May 14th 1940, the German tanks had crossed the river Meuse and had opened up a fifty-mile gap in the Allied front. Six days later they reached the Channel. When he heard the news, Winston Churchill, who had just become prime minister, ordered the implementation of Operation Dynamo: a plan to evacuate the British Expeditionary Forces troops and their equipment, along with the remnants of the French army, from the French port of Dunkirk. Between 27th May and 4th June, a total of nearly 700 ships brought 338.226 people back to Britain. All heavy equipment was abandoned and left in France. Ellis' official history “The War in France & Flanders 1939 – 1940” gives the following statistics:Vehicles shipped to France: 68.618Lost: 63.879
Brought back: 4.739
Motorcycles: 21.081Lost: 20.548
Brought back: 533
This impressed civilian Triumph made it back to Blighty:
But this one was captured by the Germans, and started a new life “under new ownership”:
And that’s exactly what must have happened to your bike Russ...-
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More pictures from Egypt...
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Just to give you some inspiration Ron... 😊
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CW or BW prefix frame numbers and engine numbers.I have gone through thousands of Key Card entries, and I have found "several" (less than 1%) of these "special" numbers. Mostly "25/CW" prefixes (e.g. 25/CW/270 or 25/CW/70/55, etc...), but also some "14/CW" examples and a handful of "31/BW” prefixes. These were frame numbers for brand new replacement frames, for when the original frame was damaged beyond repair.Not sure about 25/CW… Could be 25 Command Workshop in Gainsborough or 25 (Scottish) Command Workshop in Lanark (?)Anyway, 25/CW/270 is the 270th replacement frame in 25 Command Workshop (pre 1955), in 1955 and 1956 this number was followed by the year (55 or 56 respectively).14/CW stands for 14 Command Workshop (Ashford),31/BW stands for 31 Base Workshop, also in Ashford.
Please feel free to add further information to this thread! 😊-
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Overhaul or Class 1 Rebuild
On the data plates above, we often find either the “OVERHAUL” or "REBUILT TO CLASS 1” indications. What is the difference between these two?During an overhaul, the engine is dismantled, wear is measured and components are replaced where needed. No doubt the rest of the bike is also inspected, and repaired where necessary.A Class 1 rebuild is much more than an overhaul. The transcription below comes from a military document:RE-BUILDING OF "B" VEHICLES TO CLASS I CONDITION
(a) To reduce the number of W.D. contract type "B" vehicles which, due to age, mileage and general mechanical condition, cannot at present be graded higher than Class II after normal repairs, arrangements have been made whereby certain categories of vehicles will be completely stripped, inspected and re-built and will thereby be virtually equal to new.
(b) The categories concerned are as indicated in sub-para. 16 (b), and it will be observed that re-building is carried out only by:
(i) Ministry of Supply Auxiliary Army Workshops (*)
(ii) Central Workshops, R.E.M.E., Ashford, Middlesex. (Note: rebuilding restricted to vehicles received ex V.R.Ds.) (**)
(c) The following points in connection with the re-building scheme should be noted :-
(i) On completion, the vehicles will have been regraded as Class I.
(ii) Original W.D. numbers will have been cancelled and new W.D. numbers allotted and painted on. (***)(iii) All current modifications will have been embodied.Example: when they left the factory, pre-1942 motorcycles did not have pannier frames and a pillion seat. During the Class 1 rebuild these items were added.
(iv) Mileage recorders will have been re-set to zero.
(v) Dash plates (or carrier plates in the case of motor-cycles) will have been fitted indicating the date of re-build. (****)
New A.Bs. 412 (or A.Bs. 412M) (*****) will have been issued and will also indicate the date of re-build.
(d) The re-building scheme does not in any way alter the existing policy for the repair of "B" vehicles in R.E.M.E. workshops, the only change being that where vehicles of appropriate category are received by M. of S. A.A.Ws., they will be re-built instead of being repaired in the normal manner, as hitherto. All vehicles received by the M. of S. from units for re-building will, however, be regarded as "exchangeable" and will be returned to V.R.D. stock on completion.
(*) TT3 Rebuild to class 1:
(**) Central Workshop Rebuild to class 1:
(***) Vehicles that had gone through a Class 1 rebuilt were almost guaranteed to have mixed up engine and frame numbers, and they were “as good as new”. Therefore the original census number was also replaced with a census number from the “rebuilt” series.
The Class 1 Rebuild motorcycle census number sequence started at 1400001. The highest numbers in the KeyCards are 1462xxx, meaning that more than 62.000 motorcycles have been rebuilt to Class 1 before the introduction of the post war ERV registration numbers in 1949.
(****) See previous pictures(*****) The AB 412 is the vehicle logbook.
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37 Base WorkshopI have found one data plate (1944) of a vehicle that was rebuilt in 37 Base Workshop. It is currently unclear where this workshop was located. It predates the 37 Rhine Workshop above.
SCT4 WorkshopI have found two data plates (1953 - 1954) of motorcycles that were rebuilt in SCT4 Workshop. It is currently unclear where this workshop was located.
40 Base Workshop (Singapore)I have found one data plate (1957) of a motorcycle that was rebuilt in 40 Base Workshop (Singapore 1952 - 1970).
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37 Rhine Workshop (BAOR)37 Rhine Workshop was located in the Weller U-boat parts factories in Mönchengladbach (1948 - 1992).I have found four "37 Rhine Workshop" data plates:
Sometimes they stamped the RW initials on the rebuilt engines. I have found two examples:
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12 Heavy Workshop (BAOR)12 Heavy Wksp was located in the Hanomag factory in Hannover (c.1946 - 1951). During the war Hanomag made military vehicle engines, a military version of their heavy tractor and half track troop carriers.
I have found one "12 Heavy Workshop" data plate:
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During the Cold War, the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR) set up several large REME workshops in the British Occupation Zone in North-West Germany:4 Base Workshop (BAOR)4 Base Wksp at Bad Oeynhausen was (until 1958) located in the massive workshops which before the War belonged to a firm called Eisenwerk Weserhütte. Before the war they made heavy earth moving equipment etc. During the war they made the Sd.Kfz.221 and 222 (Grüber's “little tank”), and also halftracks for the Nazi regime. The site was heavily bombed at the end of the war. 4 Base Wksp was completely civilianised with REME personnel acting as liaison people in each department.
4 Base Workshop in Bad Oeynhausen is not to be confused with 4 Base Workshop in Cairo (Egypt)!
I have found lots of (different) 4 Base Workshop data plates:
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Central and Base WorkshopsN°1 Central Workshop REME (UK)I have found one data plate (1946) of a vehicle that was rebuilt in N°1 Central Workshop REME in Ashford, Middlesex:
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Northern Ireland Command Workshop (Kinnegar Nid, Belfast)This Command Workshop used metal data plates. I have found examples from 1949, ’50 and ’51:
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Southern Command Workshop.I have found two brass data plates from the 1950s:
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Western Command Workshop.I have found one engine that was stamped with a WES marking (1945):
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Command WorkshopsThe command workshops below are all UK based, and they all had their own specific way to identify rebuilt vehicles:Eastern Command Workshop.I have found several examples with ECO markings, 1945 to 1960.
But these markings may also be Eastern Command: a letter E followed by a number (no date in this number) followed by another letter (A to G).
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The BR in T.T.3 (BR) may have been Britain, F.V. may have been Fighting Vehicle, and W.V. may have been Wheeled Vehicle. Not sure about these abbreviations though…It is also unclear which of the F.V.3/R, F.V.3 and W.V.3 workshops were in the UK, and which were in (West) Germany (BAOR). Fact is that the ILO (or JLO) factory in Pinneberg (near Hamburg, West Germany) was used as an Auxiliary Workshop (N° B11) from 1945 to 1947. (Most of the workforce were German citizens, hence Auxiliary Workshop.). But I’ve never seen a JLO rebuilt bike with a brass B11 plate as in the examples above. Instead JLO stamped rebuilt bikes / engines with their own oval JLO stamp. Unfortunately JLO didn’t stamp a rebuild date on their engines…
This is the transcription of an interesting article in the November 21st 1946 issue of “The Motor Cycle”:
"ARMY REPAIRS
STERLING repair work is being done by REME in the British Zone of Germany. The energy of Colonel M. McEvoy (who remembers the McEvoy big twins of the old days?) is behind the schemes, and motor cycle repairs are carried out at the famous - and rather grand - ILO Works at Pinneburg, near Hamburg. In charge of this establishment, known as No. 11 Auxiliary Workshop, R.E.M.E., is Major Tim Reid, who is a notable motor cyclist and who rode a B.M.W, in the 1939 Senior T.T. From this works about 100 completely overhauled machines emerge each week, mostly Ariel, B.S.A., Matchless and Norton.
THE process of overhaul is very businesslike. Machines are stripped, parts are degreased, inspected, and fed into the stores. Serviceable components are then passed forward to the assembly lines and complete machines are built up. New parts are used where necessary, and when Ordnance cannot supply required parts they to be made – quite a lot of this is done at Pinneburg. Local German civilian labour is employed and much of the labour is unskilled; in spite of this handicap, good results are obtained by ultra specialization and step-by step teaching. An idea of the standard expected and achieved can be gathered from the fact that engines are subject to brake acceptance test before being passed out."
Some old "N°11 REME Auxiliary Workshop" pictures:
Thanks to Lex Schmidt for the article and the photographs.-
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And from 1952 onwards the F.V.3 workshops become W.V.3 workshops. I have found examples up until 1956.
These are the W.V.3 workshop numbers that I have found so far on similar brass plates:B145 (2x Matchless, 6x BSA, 1x Enfield Flea)B258 (1x Matchless)B266 (3x BSA, 1x Norton, 1x Matchless)B407 (1x BSA, 1x Home Office Royal Enfield) -
In 1949 the F.V.3/R workshops become F.V.3 workshops. This happened at the same time as the introduction of the post war ERM registration number system. Two examples:
So far I’ve only found these two F.V.3 plates, both with a B202 number on a BSA motorcycle. -
In 1945 (some of) the T.T.3 (BR) workshops become F.V.3/R workshops. This appears to be the complete list:
Unfortunately the list doesn’t link the workshops with the workshop numbers.Two examples of F.V.3/R brass plates:
These are the F.V.3/R workshop numbers that I have found so far on similar brass plates:B61 (1x)B181 (1x)B198 (2x)B248 (1x)B1521 (1x)Most of these brass plates come from motorcycles, some may come from 4-wheeled vehicles as well. -
In 1944 and 1945 the T.T.3 Auxiliary Workshops started using brass plates with the workshop number and rebuild date on it. Three examples:
These are the T.T.3 (BR) workshop numbers that I have found so far on similar brass plates:B12 (1x)B14 (3x)B35 (1x)B42 (1x)B131 (1x)B143 (1x)B174 (1x)B176 (1x)B180 (2x)B189 (1x)B192 (1x)B199 (1x)B202 (1x)Most of these brass plates come from motorcycles, some may come from 4-wheeled vehicles as well.-
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Redhill Motors from Redhill (again!) have 48 motorcycles in stock.-
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ISDT competitor Sid Moran from Slough has 40 Matchlesses in stock.
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Loyd Carrier
in Blogs of MV restorations
Posted
Fantastic job! 👍