Jolly Jeeper

Thanks for a patient and thought out response Tim. In many ways I'm like you - can't get enough machines, in my case Jeeps, Land Rovers and Harleys, these things really do make my world go around... I work odd hours, away from home a lot and work at weekends a lot so often I can't get to MV events. As a result driving my Hotchkiss out onto the moors with the roof off on a sunny day to a country pub for lunch with my girlfriend is one of life's pleasures. I do it for fun too and that's why I posted my first post; it's a hobby for me and the overbearing nature of these recent developments at the MVT threaten to kill it for me when generally I am just happy to receive the club magazine whether it's Windscreen, Legend, Minor Matters, HOG Tales and other things that land on the mat. I send in odd things by way of supporting the clubs I'm a member of. For example, for Windscreen I wrote about my trip with friends to Normandy in 2004 in two of my licence-built flatfender Jeeps, the Hotchkiss and a Mahindra. On a slightly off topic note; one of my favourite bits of Windscreen is the photos of WWI that you submit. I have a small, and slowly growing, collection of similar images that I buy at postcard fairs. Cheers, JC

It's a great book - bought it to read on a flight. Flight passed in no time as I read it cover to cover... Racism in the WWII US Army was a terrible thing. Anyone remember the After the Battle magazine where they went to the site of shootings of black GIs in a Lancashire Street? Bamber Bridge the place was called. JC

Yes Gerald you are absolutely right I edit 4x4 and LRW magazines but one thing I'd say is that I wanted a Willys Jeep since I was at school and owned my first British bike and first Land Rover before I'd written a word for any magazine and will have my Harley and my Jeeps and Land Rovers long after I stop. I don't think I'm throwing stones in the way you describe and the analogy I'd use is this; if I took my Jeep to be painted professionally and it came back covered in runs I wouldn't want to pay for it. At the moment Windscreen is that Jeep covered in runs because the membership pays wages for the compilation of Windscreen. As for moaning on a forum I am responding to others' posts because I have no other way of sharing my concerns. Have been a member of the MVT since 1985, not in an area so only have regular contact with the MVT through the magazine although I have met people at Beltring, Normandy, Overlord, Bovvy, Elvington etc. Finally, just to show I do put something back into this hobby here's a draft of a presentation I made at a seminar for classic vehicle clubs at Gaydon late last year. I went there in my own time and at my own expense to make this presentation. It caused some discussion but I was surprised by how few people in the room disagreed with its content. Some of the points may be of relevance here. Cheers JC Classic Car and Bike Clubs – the future? 1. Why am I qualified to address this meeting? I’ve been something of a gearhead since I was kid, bought first car – a ’68 Morris Traveller in 1978, and joined the fledgling Morris Minor Owners Club in the same year. Bought my first motorcycle, a ’71 Triumph Daytona in 1982 and joined the Triumph Owners motorcycle club. I’ve been in a variety of car and bike clubs ever since including the Military Vehicle Trust since 1985 and the Land Rover Series I Club since 1989. I’ve competed in and completed the LE JOG historic endurance rally three times. In addition I’ve worked on special interest automotive magazines full time since 1988. These include 4x4 Driver, Back Street Heroes, Live to Ride, Land Rover World and 4x4 magazines. I’ve written around 20 books on specialist motoring subjects including classic American bikes, Jeeps, classic American Pick-ups, British Bikes, tractors, Chopped Harleys and so on. I’m not claiming to know it all; what follows are my opinions with illustrative examples rather than concrete facts but I feel that specialist magazines address the same groups of people as classic car and bike clubs so even if you don’t agree with what I say it might help formulate your own ideas. The examples I have used are ones I am familiar with but I’m sure that all of you in this room will be able to relate them to examples of your own specialist subjects. 2. World is changing Legislation to do with classic vehicles is getting tighter; SORN, SVA, asbestos in brakes, solvent in paint,.. It’s getting harder for clubs to put on events because of ever more stringent health and safety legislation. The drink/drive laws have effectively called time on the traditional monthly ‘pub meet’ but this presentation is more about the demographics of classic car and bike enthusiasts. In classic vehicle club terms the changes that will affect club activities and membership include the increasing reliance on the internet and changing lifestyles in terms of leisure time, holidays etc. Perhaps, for example, people increasingly find the ‘static row of classic cars on the grass of a stately home’ type rally to be dull hence the trend to more ‘doing’ such as the boom in classic competitive rallying. 3. Cars and bikes get older This sounds obvious but is important. While there are exceptions, people are, to a great extent, inspired by vehicles ten to twenty years older than themselves which means that people age with the cars they like and as they get older they can afford the cars they desired as youngsters. I am an example of this; born in ’61 and am fascinated by late sixties and seventies cars and bikes. I own or have owned ’68 Minor Traveller, ’71 Triumph Daytona, ’74 Jeep CJ5, ’73 Land Rover Series III, ’67 Land Rover Series IIA, ’77 Indian Enfield 350 Bullet amongst others. Younger people are inspired by younger cars and then get older with them. Each generation does it, why else did Classic Bike magazine start including Japanese bikes? Why else did Practical Classics start featuring performance cars of the 80s? There are some exceptions of course, one of which, I believe, is the scene around the air-cooled Volkswagens – buses or Beetles, the earlier the better. Another is the hot rod scene, admittedly a minority interest, which seems to be undergoing something of a renaissance. In this area modifications to old cars – thirties Fords etc - are essential and its participants are aspiring to an age when cars much older than the previously mentioned ‘twenty year’ idea were initially modified rather than when they were new. And for those who abhor modifications remember that hot rods have been exhibited at Pebble Beach and Goodwood. Exotica will always have an enduring appeal but think about the Morris Minor OC (an organisation I feel qualified to speak about having been a member for 27 years), typical of many clubs for ‘run-of-the mill’ machines; it’s fair to assume that as the Minor gets older – the last ones now having been made 35 years ago – that the number of youngsters who will want one will decline dramatically. Ask yourselves how many people will want a 1962 four-door saloon with rattly trunions in ten years time? This has a potential impact on prices of Minors – the price of Convertibles (the exotic Minor) is already well past its peak - but more importantly it has a potential impact on the size of a car club’s membership. In this case if demand for Minors drops, the numbers likely to join the owners’ club will also decline. 4. Supply and Demand In the case of the Minor the supply may exceed demand but the opposite is true with many military vehicles. The restored military vehicle scene got started in the early seventies by people who, as children in WWII, remembered seeing military vehicles – especially those of the US Army - running about. At this time ‘every’ garage had an ex-military truck as a tow truck and farmers had Willys Jeeps, all just waiting to be bought for restoration. They were bought up and restored by guys in their 20s and 30s many of whom collected more than one. The scene endured with both classes for MVs at other events and dedicated MV shows. Fast forward to 2004 – the 60th anniversary of D-Day – in Normandy when the overwhelming numbers of MVs were US Dodges and French Hotchkiss Jeeps. The less numerous but often more interesting British machines were all at home in garages still owned by the 1st generations of MV enthusiasts now in their 50s and 60s who had been on plenty of previous tours to Normandy. The reason that Dodge WCs and Hotchkiss M201 (Licence-built Willys MBs) were so numerous is that the Norwegian Army had recently disposed of its long-stockpiled Dodges and the French Army had disposed of its M201s. These plentiful machines had become the entry-level MV for the younger enthusiasts – this seems to be one area where younger enthusiasts are drawn to much older vehicles. Another example is Harley-Davidsons. While I was at Back Street Heroes (c1991-94) magazine Harleys were in huge demand but expensive (the Evo engine introduced in 1983 changed the face of Harley riding) and the only plentiful classic Harley in the UK was the 45cid WWII Army bike. These fetched a lot of money for largely worn out, 40-plus year old bikes but as the Evo models became more plentiful and filtered into the second-hand market, the disproportionately high demand for 45s declined. Now though these great bikes have become sought after classics revered by a minority of HD riders and MV enthusiasts. Harley-Davidson runs its own owners’ club, Harley Owners Group (HOG) which is a slick, corporate marketing exercise but successful nonetheless. Basically if something is available and cheap people will drive it and a scene may develop around it; Minors – once were cheap fun cars, a scene developed and prices rocketed but rust and maintenance took its toll and things peaked. Series I, II and III Land Rovers were what established a Land Rover enthusiast scene. The Suzuki SJ410/413 of the late eighties and early nineties was popular and fun and became trendy. Possibly because these vehicles rusted quickly it’s only a minority of hardcore fans who still drive them. 5. Commercial Magazines – blessing or curse? Scenes around specific vehicles start unofficially and quietly then as they evolve the arrival of a commercial magazine is both a blessing and a curse; It’s a blessing in that it endorses and focuses a hitherto informal area of enthusiasm and allows widely spread people to indulge their interest. It’s a curse because it changes the dynamics within the scene; no longer do people need to be in an owners’ club to find out about events and news and vehicles for sale. The Land Rover enthusiast scene is an example; it grew out of the plentiful supply of second hand Land Rovers after they’d been in production a decade or so and, based on the machines’ off-road ability tended to involve club events and trials (already popular in car clubs). This scene continually expanded until in the eighties, the first specialist dedicated Land Rover magazine was launched, we’re now in a position where four specialist titles are fighting for sales to enthusiasts, commercial shows have changed the scene at the expense of traditional events and the plentiful, cheap, second-hand Land Rover has vanished. The whole scene is diversifying; the earliest Land Rovers have become cherished classics, the new models from Land Rover don’t engender the same passion so the cohesive core has gone. It is easily possible to be a die-hard Land Rover enthusiast without being in any club at all. The Military Vehicle scene will, I believe, follow the Land Rover scene down the same path. For years it survived with a couple of large owners’ clubs in the UK, namely the Military Vehicle Trust (MVT) and Invicta Military Vehicle Preservation Society (IMPS) and one very specialist magazine, Wheels and Tracks, that closed with the death of its editor. Two less authoritative but more readily available military vehicle titles have replaced it. No longer does an mv owner have to be in the MVT or IMPS and rely on its magazine to find out about shows, events, spares and news. Go into WH Smiths and pick up or put down the hobby at will without any commitment to membership fees or anything beyond the purchase price of the magazine! My prediction is that the MVT will see its membership decline as members increasingly come to rely on the more frequent – generally monthly - commercial magazines. The lesson here has to be that, as a club’s magazine is often a member’s only contact with a national owners’ club, owners’ club magazines have to be truly excellent to give people a reason to remain in that club. Windscreen, the magazine of the MVT, is thick and packed with info but sadly, poorly written in the main, badly spelt and punctuated, pitifully designed and I doubt it will do the job of retaining members. Very similar things can currently be said about Minor Matters, the magazine of the MMOC. Don’t get me wrong every type of car and bike will always attract a fanatical following; people who want lowlight Minor saloons, A35s, BSA C15s, Hillman Hunters or whatever but it’s likely to be the numbers that slip away meaning that clubs may have to consider their finances as it’s often the numbers that allow clubs to thrive financially. There will be youngsters who get enthusiastic about something their grandparents drove (otherwise there’d be no Austin 7s left!) but they will never appear in the numbers that they once did. This is why the plentiful day to day ‘classics’ of today may see a fall in demand and corresponding fall in prices. One club that I think is forward looking is the Land Rover Series I Club, it has a worldwide membership, is the world’s largest Land Rover club and welcomes all comers to its door whether they drive cherished classics, beaten to death farm workhorses or massively modified off-roaders. The club is one where the only contact with its membership is through its magazine, Legend and its committee know this. Legend is excellent and entertains and informs its readers admirably. Maybe clubs need to put on joint events – ask yourselves why is Goodwood great? Why do people flock to the NEC Classic Car Show (they are not all club members)? 6. Aspirations Some cars attract a lifestyle scene around them including VWs, hot rods, military vehicles, 50s and 60s American cars etc which may have something to do with the influx of youngsters. The dressing-up in clothes of the right era is popular with the cars I’ve just mentioned and, like it or loathe it, adds something to shows and rallies. 50s and 60s America is generally seen as cool, austere 50s Britain less so but it’s something for car clubs to consider… Clubs can’t be staid and stuffy if they are to have a future; the man who wrote to a magazine complaining about the ‘senseless’ destruction of a Hindustan Ambassador in a Peugeot TV advert isn’t going to be the sort of guy anyone wants to go to the pub with… 7. Conclusion I believe that to survive clubs must A; be aware the world’s changing and at least get a website, B; accept the need to improve their magazines C; support organisations such as the FBHVC D; start thinking about a new approach to events E; plan for a contracting membership

Thanks buddy. I was going to post it without my real name but figured that if it was to count for anything I couldn't hide behind a pseudonym. I guess it does mean that there probably won't be any of my pictures in Windscreen in future! JC

Richard Notton, I am so glad that you started this thread because ‘It’s not April 1st, is it?’ was exactly my first thought when I opened Windscreen last weekend. I have registered on this site purely to respond positively to your posts. I’m not really fussed about points 1, 2 and 3 (apart from the day dreaming in point 1 of course) in the proposed motions for the MVT’s AGM however points 4, 5 and 6 have been bothering me on and off since I read them. It strikes me that the guy who has written these has little concept of what the MVT is and I’d be interested to know what colour the sky is in his world? If, as I believe, the MVT is nothing more than an owners club for people who have old vehicles then some members of the CoM need to take a more realistic view of things. Motion 4 Team building exercises are for management training for ambitious young suits from offices. Is this proposal from some sort of management textbook that we should be impressed by quotes from? Is a bunch of military vehicle duffers building a raft in the pouring rain in Wales going to achieve anything? Should members’ money be spent on such nonsense? A last thought on this point; we’d get better value from members’ money if we bought the Windscreen team a dictionary and a book on grammar. They might learn what to do with an apostrophe for a start and avoid cringe-worthy errors like ‘a life in green surge…’ (just one from the latest Windscreen). How can we expect politicians and the like to respect our hobby and take us seriously if we can’t even spell serge right? Or get the name of the FBHVC right? Motion 5 Maybe it’s a local authority political correctness handbook that turned up. The MVT is merely a club that there’s no obligation to join not a place of work where someone has to earn a living and may feel discriminated against. Further given that the MVT has, amongst its membership, the weekend Nazi dressers-up, who represent one of the evilest of regimes and one that persecuted blacks, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled and more perhaps there won’t be too many one-legged, black blokes wishing they could join the MVT… Motion 6 Psychological profiling of the membership in case we turn out to be terrorists? Again what colour is the sky in this guy’s world? A ‘threat to the trust?’ Never mind the cost or other practical considerations eh? It’s only a f****** ‘car’ club. Motion 7 ‘One member of the CoM should be designated as ‘Tree Officer’ to undertake a random inspection of members’ trees.’ Really? It’s a club we join because we want to not out of any sense of obligation. Global warming is an issue but this wanting to police the membership attitude really sticks in my throat. The attitude in many of these proposals reminds me of the union blokes in big factories; they claim to want to represent the membership but really, just want to sit in an office and shuffle paper as they perceive the bosses do. More worrying is the fact that many of the MVT committee frequently pat themselves on the back in print in Windscreen (just look at the Chairman’s Mumblings on the news page of the MVT website) about how great Windscreen is and in some sort of way have agreed to pay the current team to produce it for three years. Firstly it’s not great, in fact Windscreen is pitiful in terms of spelling, standard of grammar (just look at the Chairman’s Mumblings on the news page of the MVT website), style of design and order of content. Secondly, as Windscreen is the only point of contact many members have with the club I would have thought that the membership should be consulted more on such an important part of the MVT. Still the editor wants to be re-elected to the CoM with the singularly unfunny joke that if we don’t vote for him he’ll get our Windscreen magazines lost in the post. My sides are aching from laughing or maybe they’re not… I have been a member of the MVT for more than ten years but I’m not sure that I’m going to be for much longer. The renewal notice came this week and I don’t know if I’ll send it back or not if this is the way the MVT is going.

Hello! Another new guy - the FNG! Got a Hotchkiss M201(on the road) and some other Jeep stuff. JC