wdbikemad

Some guy is selling these on Ebay and I always laugh to see the description.....'Blue army PT shorts, gay interest'

 

Clearly limiting his potential customer base!!

Ha Ha !! I'd forgotten about those bloody awful things.....until now !!!!:shocked:

Two pairs were issued to the wide-eyed recruit, alongside (in the RAF) two T'shirts, one light blue and the other in white......you could guarantee that after the first PT beasting session some poor recruit would chuck the white one in the wash with the blue one and the navy-blue shorts......resulting in a bollocking and the first (of many) pay deductions to obtain another from stores.....

The shorts were dreadful......you looked like a relic from the eighth army in 'em.....the only way to get a decent image was to get a pair 5 sizes too small, and the T-shirts usually ended up stretching with the V-neck ending up at your navel......

The white plimsoll's were equally crap......the first cross-country expedition turning them a rather strange shade of brown.........:-D

ABL isn't a manufacturer.

Its stands for Armee Belge/Belgisch leger (Belgian army).

Pre-war it was ABBL

At least I managed to get the Belgian connection correct......my knowledge of Belgian is largely limited to Stella.....(she was, and still is....gooooooood.....:nut: !!!)

The woolen RAF trousers, and NBC overboots.

NBC boots....I'd forgotten about those bloody things....!!! Never quite mastered the technique to put them on and lace 'em up correctly............would still struggle nowadays....

Shirts,KF = Shirts, Itchy Blanket! Bloody Horrible to wear & shrank a little each time you washed them!

 

The much earlier brown ones were better IF, you could get your hands on them! They were a better wool material & If you shaved them with a razor to make them smoother. Were more comfortable in wear. In the field we used to wear jungle shirts which were cottern & MUCH more comfy! When I was attached the Para's, jungle shirts & OG Trousers (IF you could get 'em!) were the norm rather than the more flimsy Trousers,Lightweight. OGs could be taken off in the filed if wet with your boots still on your feet. Lightweights were not as gererously cut in the leg width & prevented this. An Impotant consideration in Combat! Keeping your boots on saved time & convienience. All Soldiers will remember how important is is to keep your boots on at all times. No matter how uncomfortable it may be when you wanted to sleep!

The earlier brown-colour shirts were indeed far better, made from 100% wool-flannel (1964 pattern)......In 1970-71 the new pattern combat shirt was introduced, still in brown but now of a wool/nylon mix........during 1971-72 this was changed to green but still in the same fabric.......an awful combination....!

The lightweight trousers were good and of a superior fit, but 100% polyester so not as good as the older jungle-green trousers (cross-over belt style) or the green overall trousers.....interestingly, the last batches of the latter were made from the polyester material used in the lightweights....resulting in a baggy comfortable trouser but made from a useless non-fire retardant fabric......

Troops in Northern Ireland were banned from wearing these, and the lightweight tropical DPM trousers, because the polyester fabric would melt at the mearest sniff of a petrol bomb..........

The cut wasn't improved in the 1975 ( ? ) pattern: it was only when the 1984/5 pattern came out that you could wear a pair of combat trousers comfortably without braces.

 

Lucky that for most of my career we wore lightweights de rigeur.

The '84-85 pattern strides were a real improvement......shame the pockets fell off if you put anything heavy in them (eg: a handkerchief), and anything bulky inserted made you look like a German general.........

No '75 pattern trousers......although the material the '68 pattern was made from (100% cotton sateen) was replaced during 1977-78 by an improved cotton-modal fabric (70% cotton - 30% synthetic)........'68 pattern not replaced until 1984......

Happy days !!!!

The recent posts about the (awful) British Mark 5 tin hat made me remember (and laugh) at some of the other awful items of kit that were once issued (and suffered) by many, me included...! I wonder what other Forum enthusiasts recall about such things....?

"Shirt, Mans, Combat" - or "Shirt, Mans, Itchy/sandpaper/unbearable, etc".......whether khaki or green, the old hairy wool/nylon flannel KF shirt was just plain awful....especially in summer.....I remember putting my new ones in a bucket of 75/25 bleach and water in an attempt to burn away the hairyness........it did work, but also turned the shirt a rather peculiar light-grey colour......ah well, it made you look like an old sweat from the word go....

Then the heavy lined combat trousers ('68 pattern) that went all the way up to just under your armpits.....and still the crutch remained in line with your knees......any physical exercise usually resulted in the most unpleasant sweat rash around your upper inner thighs....ouch !!!

Puttees......never that good if you were late for parade in the morning......I cut mine down so that they only went round my ankles a couple of times for such situations (that occurred regularly after a session the night before)......

Peaked caps....why did they replace the leather sweatband with one made from vynil, that made your head sweat like never before.....?

Polyester knitted gloves.....guaranteed to prevent you gripping anything......

Waterproofs made from rubberised PVC.....great unless you moved your body...though better than the earlier nylon type that made you sound like a bin bag on the move.....

Nylon poncho.....never to be worn in a high wind....though otherwise great with a cigar for that Clint impression......

DMS boot insoles......made from hard plastic "shreddie" material, guaranteed to remove all dead skin from your feet within 5 yards......and perfect when worn with thick polyester knitted socks......athlete's foot - here I come !

Happy days......

http://www.rafregiment.net/images/1Sqn%20route%20march%201981.jpg

 

I found this piccy of a rock ape, is this the large pack? :-

 

Mark

It doesn't resemble the one in the official photos, that appears to have long side pouches secured by the strange plastic clips also found on the ammo pouches.........the rock ape's pack also seems to be on an external frame, so may be a commercial variant common at the time........also common at the time was the issue 'tache....! I handed mine in when I left....!!!!

Ta for that, I have some 37 Pattern webbing with the same T.A.W.O. markings, is that a Belgian mark?

 

Mark

Mark, a lot of ex-wartime WD clothing and equipment was supplied to Belgium......then they started producing stuff themselves based upon the British designs......this included steel helmets (infantry and para), battledress, headgear, webbing, motorcycle clothing, etc....

Additionally, during 1945 several Belgian factories were actually manufacturing uniforms and headdress for the War Department....battledress and GS caps spring to mind.....although these are still WD-marked.....

Like Stefano, I 'd like to hail Mr Madden. It's kinda erie to have real live text on my PC from someone who I rate as a WD motorcycle "God". Sorry if this seems a little OTT Steve but I have a very new, very cherished copy of your book and to see you providing information dynamically here, on the James ML, is quite humbling, not least because I really want one! And a Matchless G3WO as well!

I'm seriously flattered by the support from fellow WD bike enthusiasts....I know Chris will be too (he only lives a few miles away from me and we keep in touch).....but there are many who know far more than me....you only have to look at Henk's WD BSA Forum and Rob's Norton Forum to see that this is so.....but thank you anyway :red:

The book was the first real attempt to collate info on British military motorcycles.....and years later it is still the only title available to cover the subject in any detail......as with most books, a lot more could have been published, but the publisher restricted us to a certain size and number of words so a lot was left out......one day, it is hoped to rectify this situation....! When the book was written I was in my late 20s.....I'm now not far off 50 so hope I get round to it before I'm in the ground.....!!!

Post-war Belgian production.....based upon the early wartime British fibre "pulp" motorcycle crash hat.....ABL were a prominent Belgian helmet producer.....

Metric (continental) sizing too....not found on British wartime production.....

Have you not the modern webbing book printed not long ago?

ta

Jon

I have the book.....plus a few MOD photos showing the set being worn.....there IS a large back-pack for the set, worn above the rear (small) pack......plus utility straps (I have these)....the yoke for the set is very similar to a '58 yoke but in nylon and featuring plastic, not metal buckles.......although termed '72 pattern I have a set of pouches and a rear pack dated 1971.....!??

The larger pack is described as having 4 separate compartments with a drawstring "bag" within to secure the contents...from the photos it looks rather square and "boxy" and more than a tad inflexible.....there was also a load-carrying frame, smaller and lighter than the '44 pattern manpack carrier.....

Soldier Magazine announced that the '72 pattern webbing was undergoing troop trials during that year, with an anticipated in-service date of 1975....clearly, this never happened.........I guess the set wasn't robust or flexible enough for service, and the large pack a bit of an out-dated item by the '70s.....

Not sure about the Susat pouch though.....this may be related to the '72 pattern set but does not feature in the official piccies.....it may be an item made in nylon and simply added to any webbing set worn at the time (eg - '58 or '44 pattern).....

Stefano - you are too kind !

The silencer system on my old ML acquired years ago had SCC No.2 (brown) paint on the silencer can and pipe......although the exhaust pipes from the cylinder were cadmium/dull-chrome plated........

I have a number of NOS ML fork links......they are finished in both khaki-green No.3 and SCC No.2 (brown)..............I would assume that the first ML contract were in SCC.No.2, the contract commencing during 1943 when this colour was standard.......I think that later production changed back to green (1944-45), this being the British version of olive drab......the NOS frame, number ML 4*** (from the "missing" numbers after the first contract) plus my own ML (4401) were both finished originally in SCC No.2.....

I would agree that ML's were probably first used in Italy and Sicily during 1943......

The bulk of wartime photos showing both Fleas and ML's from 1943 through to post-D-Day in 1944 all show early (1st contract) bikes.........many of the later production bikes were never actually issued, and spent their life in store prior to disposal.....there are a few photos around actually showing ML's in store in a depot somewhere in the UK, and these are later production (the photo itself being incorrectly captioned and labelling the bikes as Royal Enfields !)............

:shocked::shocked::shocked: piccys please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have only seen a few bits of the 1972, and nothing of the nylon 58.

 

Am not really jealous, no not really!

 

Mark

I'll try and arrange some photos Mark. My collection is not stored at home (too large) so will have to find time to extracate it and picture....

Rather interestingly, the '72 pattern rear pack contains a built-in machette sheath....I wonder if this set was intended for jungle use ?

Does anybody have any examples or knowledge of some of the trial/experimental items of British military webbing from the 1970's ?

I have a couple of full sets of the "1972" pattern nylon webbing, complete with the scarce rear-pouch (always missing)....components from the sets being dated from 1971 through to 1973......

I've also got a near-complete set of '58 webbing but made throughout in green nylon....I'm missing only the waterbottle carrier and the poncho roll carrier.....this set is a genuine issue item and is stamped and NSN marked and dated around 1977.......it bears various numbers and some components have clearly been issued and used.....

Be interested to sample some feedback on these items....!

Hi Steve,

 

I am sorry I have to correct you on this, but there actually is one photo of a James in use with A/B forces. It's in Arnhem during the attack of South-staffs and 1 and 3 para to arnhem on the 19th of sept. 1944. It's laying on it's side, and there's a civvy Harley standing next to it from the dutch AA.

 

See here, bottom photo.

 

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vriendenairbornemuseum.nl/IMG_0002.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vriendenairbornemuseum.nl/battlefield_walk_2010.htm&usg=___z6cqkQitslkGyL8H7DPTPi-IB8=&h=457&w=640&sz=62&hl=nl&start=47&sig2=WyqmoeO5nIGjn9pyEjXtJg&zoom=0&itbs=1&tbnid=dP4pzkEZvJahvM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=137&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfoto%2Bbrencarrier%2Barnhem%26start%3D40%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1R2GPEA_nl%26ndsp%3D20%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D624%26tbm%3Disch&ei=5lPBTYyJB8nsOcHX8ewE

I have that photo !!! It has been discussed in the past (not on this forum) and although the bike is undoubtably an ML, the actual time period is not confirmed......one train of thought suggests that it may well be post-Arnhem, the presence of the Harley and the ML possibly indicative of Allied units reaching the area post-battle, the ML possibly coming from one of these relief/advance units......

There is indeed the possibility that the ML WAS used by glider-borne troops, the same units also employing Matchless G3L's ("Motorcycle, Heavyweight").......the Airborne equipment lists (Air Landing Brigades) actually specify the other two machines as "Motorcycle, Lightweight" (the Flea) and "Motorcycle, Folding" (the Welbike)...plus scales of issue per-unit.........

However, I am a stickler for photographic evidence, and the Flea can be found in numerous wartime shots in airborne usage......but not the ML (in my knowledge to date at least)......so until a photo turns up showing use with airborne troops or units, I remain unconvinced !!! :angel:

All ML's have the "ML" in front of the frame number, whether WD or civvy........

All the previous threads are pretty accurate in info' (well done chaps !)......

Some of the very early civvy production ML's have the WD type frame...the difference ? Well, the WD frame has welded-on tyre inflator lugs on the rear-right side...many later civvy ones have these as separate fittings......

Some early civvy ML's also continued to use the folding WD-type footrests until stocks were exhausted.....same with toolboxes, continuing to fit the cylindrical variety until the "kidney" shape type took over..........

Saddle is "Mansfield" brand (should have a tag on the rear of the cover)....this is the same for WD and civvy, plus identical to that fitted to the WD/RE Flea.......

All WD engines have the Villiers number stamped on the rear of the engine....it should be "AAA ***** A"....there appears no logic to the numbering sequence and no record in the parts or contract lists......

Note that the Flea and the ML share the same Villiers carburetter and air-cleaner assembly, although the carb needle and block are different and not interchangeable between models......fortunately, the ML uses a more common, "standard" size needle and block whereas the Flea uses "non-standard"....both fittings are available from Villiers Services.....................

Also of note is that whilst the ML used a standard WD Lucas DU42 headlight and blackout mask assembly, the switch panel and lightswitch are unique to the ML......the ammeter hold on the panel is blanked-off (not cut-out) and below is fitted a wire-wound ceramic resistor......the lightswitch itself looks the same as the standard 4-position Lucas WD variety but has two positions "reversed".....so reads "Off, T, H, L" rather than "Off, T, L, H"..........needless to say the ML variety is a bugger to find if missing.....

There exists an unknown gap in WD ML frame numbers......roughly 1500 bikes between the end of the first contract and the start of the second (roughly from ML 3500 to 5001)....years ago I had an ex-WD ML sold off in 1953 according to the log book, that had frame number "ML 4401" (within the "missing" numbers) but fitted with a contract plate from the first contract ! This may suggest that the first contract was extended, but not documented (or at least not recorded today)........but a couple of years ago now I examined a brand new ex-WD ML frame still in khaki paint that had a frame number also within the "4***" range group.......so this may suggest the the first contract was for, say, 3,500 ML's plus 1,500 or so supplied as "spares" (eg - in components)......this affected other makes during contract demands (eg: Ariel) so why not James...?)...

The little ML is a fine bike, well built, capable of a good 40mph on the road and very tough, and arguably far better than the Flying Flea......but it is heavier, and no evidence exists (eg: photos) to prove any use with Airborne forces during WW2.....the well-known photo showing a Canadian para astride an ML was a publicity shot....the actual service use being more as a lightweight "tender" strapped on the back of carriers and artillery vehicles from D-Day onwards......

Steve Madden

Only purchase at Stafford today.... Desert Wolly Pully!

 

Never even seen one before

 

Mark

Is it an issue item ? Nice either way....!

I think the venerable woolly pully has almost gone from the British Army nowadays since being largely relegated to barrack wear, although today this is mostly Soldier 95 cammo....except for the odd regiment & corps ....?

I remember some of the bs we were told, such as in the event of a "sunburst event" lay flat on your face in the direction of the detonation and the helmet was shaped to deflect the blast over your back! Yeah right!

I can still feel (in my mind) that bloody spike.

As if it wasn't unstable enough, during the early days in Northern Ireland some bright spark though it would be a great idea to attach a 2-ton heavy perspex "riot" visor to the front of the Mark 5......this disastrous idea resulted in an additional chinstrap attachment being introduced that went round the back of the head to stop the helmet from tipping over the eyes....hmmmmmm... mind you, the weight of the visor did at least reduce the "boing - boing" experience when running....:undecided:

I never got to experience the GS Mark 6 as I was out by then.....although did briefly use the early version of the fibre para helmet (the type with the PVC harness)....this was, from memory, a fairly comfortable item (mind you, anything was after the Mark 5 tin hat)....

Great images Jason - thank you !

The sniper smock is indeed a SCRDE developmental model intended for troop trials....I would date this example as circa 1977 - 78....

The size 9 '60 pattern is very nice...I have a couple of these plus trousers in the same size and condition....this smock looks to be one of the large batch of size 7s, 8s and 9s released NOS onto the UK surplus market during 1980 - 81 for £12 each (why didn't I buy any ??!!)......

The '63 pattern DPM windproof is also very nice.....I've only seen these made by James Smith & Co, so perhaps they had the only contract(s) ? This one dates from 1970 - 73 I think....

Happy days!:laugh:

How often did you spot some poor sod with it on backwards!!

Ha Ha ! It just made it look even more ridiculous......

The strange thing was that you were more at risk of injury from the helmet itself than any missile.....

I seem to recall that the lining was secured to a long steel "spike" welded into the top-inside of the helmet shell.....you could guarantee that some B*****d would wallop you on top of the helmet with a pick-helve at some point, pushing the spike into your bonce....

Whilst I sympathise with anyone complaining about the fibre GS Mark 6, all I can say is is you want to know what real pain is, you should have experienced its predecessor...!

Happy days indeed....!

Having been a victim of said helmet in my RAF days, I concur wholeheartedly!!

The best use for a Mark 5 helmet was as a demonstration tool for the power of a thunderflash......

Simply activate the thunderflash, place the tin lid over the top, and run.......

The only downside was what goes up, must come down.....:undecided:

I have a sniper smock, ex RAF Regiment (RAF Honington).

It has metric sizing and has a partial DPM lining.

There is no manufacturers name, the contract no. is not clear.

The NSN is 8415-99-1?0-8040.

It appears to have been modelled on a Para smock.

Hi Paul - many thanks for this post.......the item was introduced during 1977-78, and I'm wondering about the specification from this early period....yours is from the post-1984 period going by the metric sizing but still very useful....many thanks !

The worst, most uncomfortable helmet EVER has to be the old British Mark 5 tin hat, finally replaced by the fibre GS Mark 6 during 1986.......

This bloody awful "turtle" shaped helmet first appeared during 1941 on field trials, evolving into the Mark 3 for D-Day......the Mark 4 was the same but with allegedly improved chinstrap locations and a removable liner with a "lift-the-dot" fastener in the top....and then this in turn during (I think) the late-1960's/early 1970's) became the Mark 5 when the liner was changed from oilcloth-rexine to a fibre type with a stockinette head-cradle....

I HATED the Mark 5 with a vengeance.......the lining was made from the most irritating material ever made that caused your head to itch uncontrollably after 5 minutes of wear....

Plus, the entire helmet was so unstable on the head that the minute you hit the deck in the prone position the 'kin thing would fly off your head and roll away several yards from where you had landed........it didn't matter how tightly you had made the chinstrap, this always happened.....the strap itself was made from elasticated webbing, so tightening was a pretty useless exercise anyway, and when you were running with the thing on this made the helmet bounce up and down on your head uncontrollably.......no wonder it was often termed "the boingy"......

Sniper smock mainly Jason, but images of the other would be great for the benefit of all on the Forum. Really appreciated, thanks :cheesy:

Hi Steve,

 

I have a size 3 Para smock - old 68 pattern style - originally issued to a Sergeant on tour with 2Para in NI in 1979. Nice bit of kit in the older lighter colours and I do not see many of them...

 

I also have a Size 5 sniper smock but I think it was an experimental version as the label is a prototype SCRDE version with no maker name or NSN. I have posted a picture of it on HMVF somewhere. Will try to find it so I can confirm the lining but from memory I think it has the green lining...

 

Finally I have a couple of examples of the 63 windproof but in DPM not olive green...

 

If interested I can post some pics of the above but will have to dig them out first!

Hi Jason - that would be great ! I need to fill in a couple of gaps in my current research, so any photos would be a real bonus. Many thanks.