wdbikemad

Makes more sense if the kit was Fleet Air Arm than RAF. Out of intrest, is there any flotation built into the jacket? This is a trade mark of Beaufort kit. One thing for sure, it is and always has been ******* expensive! Mind you if you think your life is cheap, buy cheap kit. The obvious that comes to mind is SBS or RM Commando use.

 

http://www.rfdbeaufortmarine.com/

No flotation in any of the garments.......the only real oddity with them all is the fabric from which made.....it is a ripstop fabric, but far stiffer than the standard CS 95 stuff...feeling almost like card when new.....and the heavyweight field jacket and trousers are apparently very heavy duty and with a waxy-feel to the cloth, although it's not waxed cotton.....I wonder if the items are also fire resistant, which would make sense for aircrew clothing....

All items are very similar in style to the CS 95 standard garments, so I wonder if these were a proposed aircrew version of these ?

Yes it is a '84/85 pattern Smock so your date line should be right.

Ta

Jon

Many early DPM para, SAS & arctic windproof smocks seem to have been made by H E Textiles Ltd of Newcastle.....I have an article somewhere suggesting that this particular company were awarded a huge contract around the late-1970's/early 1980's for the supply of combat clothing........their name, however, seems to feature more on the former garments than standard pattern combat clothing......

Both Beaufort (More known for naval and sea survival kit) And Barbour made approved 'private purchase kit'.

This is definitely issue kit Tony.....the labels carry correct contract, stores reference, NSN's and the crows foot MoD mark, the latter confirming MoD property. I strongly suspect that these garments were intended for aircrew use by the "22c" flying clothing marking plus the various other features normally associated with flying clothing such as metal zips, extra velcro to secure pocket contents, etc.....the shirt I have actually came in the issue MoD packet complete with paper label and barcode...!

any pics?

Not at the moment...I'm in Cornwall and the gear is in Wiltshire !!

Check out "Surplus & Outdoors" website for some good images of these garments....ps: apols for the quality of my earlier post...done on a mobile that my fingers are too damn large for !!!!

I recently acquired a lightweight shirt/jacket and matching trousers in DPM very similar in design to the CS 95 issue kit. Both items are new and genuine MoD issue, and carry labels.....<br><br>However, both jacket and trousers are made from a rather stiff, heavy-duty ripstop material printed in DPM camouflage totally unlike that found on the standard CS 95 DPM garments......<br><br>The jacket is styled the same as a CS 95 shirt, but is fitted with the RAF aircrew-style taped buttons, similar but not identical to the CS 95 standard items.....plus, the jacket is fitted with a full-length steel/alloy zipper beneath the front buttoned flap AND has velcro fastening strips underneath the front pocket flaps to secure the contents.......The trousers are also similar to CS 95 and with similar additional features as per the jacket........<br><br>I've done a bit of digging, and apparently and even heavier pair of trousers were made PLUS a filed jacket similar to CS 95 but in a very heavy, ripstop DPM fabric with a "waxy" feel to it........<br><br>Both my jacket and trousers are fitted with white-colour labels bearing the name "Beaufort" and the MoD arrow.....both garments are dated 2002......both carry NSN's plus a "22c" stores reference number......the jacket is refered to as "NFJ Jacket lightweight".......<br><br>What are they ??? The name "Beaufort" is associated with aircrew clothing, plus the "22c" number is a RAF/AAC number identifiyer for flying clothing........and "NFJ"..."New Field Jacket" ???<br><br>"Surplus and Outdoors" (check on the web) advertise these but are out of stock of all items except for the lightweight shirt and trousers...but their website does show illustrations of these garments......<br><br>As far as I know, RAF/AAC aircrew still wear standard issue garments in DPM plus the MK2A DPM aircrew combat clothing if required......are these items rare trials garments...???? Anyone know...?

Hi,

 

I have an OG P1960 smock and a P1968 smock - both made by James Smith & Co of Derby. Borrowing the pictures on the excellent 'forces80' website, the P1960 smock has the following style of label:

 

http://www.forces80.com/images/60pattlaba2.jpg

 

And the P1968 smock has this style of label:

 

http://www.forces80.com/images/labelsmock68pattern.jpg

 

Can I therefore assume that the P1960 smock is a late one and the P1968 smock is an early one, or is it more complicated than that?

 

Thanks,

Mark[/QUO

James Smith & Co were a pretty big company and made all sorts of British combat clothing from roughly the mid-1960's until the late 1970's......I have an article somewhere written by the former director describing the company going out of business and the skilled workforce being made redundant......they were perhaps the largest manufacturer of British combat clothing and had several factories, including Derby, Rhymney and Staveley......I can't remember at this point without looking up, but I think they may have been a subsidiary company of Cookson & Clegg Ltd although I may be wrong.....

 

They made late versions of the green '60 pattern smock & trousers, the same in DPM, the '68 and revised 77-onwards models of combat suit, tropical DPM, parkas, etc......

 

A clue with any British combat clothing is that NSN's (NATO stock numbers) did not generally appear on garment labels until around 1968-69......and prior to then most labels actually carried a date of manufacture........

James Smith merged with John Compton Sons & Webb Ltd in 1968 resulting in 16 factories and a workforce of 4,500.....then a further ownership change occurred during 1978..........I think the company went out of business during 1987...???

Bob, Your still alive. Thus proving that the Hexie Block, is healthier than Army Tea!..........

I remember giving the dunce in our unit a hexamine block intended for his burner and was going to ask him the next day if it had done the job.....

Before I got the chance he mentioned that the Kendal Mint Cake I'd given him was pretty tasteless but he'd eaten it anyway....:-|

Thought it was a max of 40" waist but then again I have lost a little weight. You could try putting in a gusset (I think thats how you spell it) or alternativly either go on a crash diet (Tried that myself ended up putting on more weight..lol) or use repro lightweights which cover the size you need.

Ta

Jon

The '68 pattern trousers persisted into the 1980's with a sizing system that had remained largely unchanged since the 1940's...until the MoD finally realised that the average male had increased in size meantime.....

Never seen a "special" size trousers (eg: demanded for the odd-size individual) even though they were listed as available to demand in any size from the contractor.....I suspect cost + paperwork + QM = too much bother......I well remember an outsize individual in my unit having to squeeze into size 9 DPM's with the stores response "wear 'em or go naked....and now f**k off !".....

Did you know the igredients for SPAM at the factory have to be kept in bulidings marked Hazourdous Material? :wow:

 

On the Modern ration front there is a really tasty Pork Ragout. The little boiled sweets have a tendency to go gooy and stick in the packets. The yeast extract is .....:pfrt: and there seems to be a secret MOD baked bean mine somewhere.

As for Cheese Pocessed, if you have a bit of old shoe lace sabout it makes a good emergrncy candle.

Ha Ha !!! Some good memories here on these posts !!!

I'd always heard that the good ol' compo rations were designed for a three day exercise and would stop you "going"......

Unfortunately, by day 4 all that stuff had to come out somewhere......

One of my mates dropped his '68 pattern strides to have a well-earned dump and only found out he'd missed the target when he went to pull 'em up, noticing a strange warm lumpy sensation within the lining.......

He wondered why nobody wanted to stag-on with him thereafter.....

The old compo rations from the 1980's were a pretty mixed bag......in fact, on many occasions mixing the lot together was the only way to get any flavour......I can well remember chucking "bacon grill" (sort of Spam in a bean tin shape), "chicken supreme" (anything but), "chicken curry", "oatmeal block" (building block) AND "lemonade powder" into the mess tin.....I was so bloody cold and hungry at the time I would have eaten anything............mind you, I think I overdid it with the lemonade powder as I had damn dodgy guts for days afterwards........:-(

"Biscuits AB" and "Biscuits AB Fruit" weren't all that bad after a bit of soaking.....and the bacon grill on its own made a fairly decent burger if sliced...........best of all was the tinned steak or steak & kidney....good quality even if the contents were probably made in the 1950's......

And the only place you could still get Spangles !!! (the Army probably had a warehouse stacked to the ceiling with them)....although Woolworths did sell the things a few years later, probably part of a retro revival....

Remember the MoD issue loo roll ??? Greaseproof paper, brought to you from those fine people at the Mod.....Dangerous stuff with sharp edges (ouch).....every sheet marked "Government property" (why ??? Who would ever want to nick the stuff - unless of course your kids needed tracing paper for school....).......I am hesitant to even imagine the "trials" that must have taken place prior to the introduction of the stuff.......AND, it suddenly disappeared from Army use almost overnight......the MoD probably had another warehouse full of the stuff, no doubt sold on to some third world nation en-masse ..... :-)

Also - the 1951 version was made from a lighter weight, softer material - very different from the 1952 type.

There are a number of fabric variations around this period......the experimental pre-Korean War combat clothing was described as being made from gaberdine, although the issue clothing introduced from mid-1951 onwards is generally made from cotton-sateen although with smocks lined in gaberdine and the combat cap made throughout in the latter material.....I have some reports relating to the evaluation of combat clothing fabrics written during 1950 and these refer to cotton-gaberdine and cotton-oxford cloths, no mention being made of cotton-sateen......this suggests that the WD were actively researching and developing materials around this period...

Jon - would love to see photos as I have not yet come across a genuine issue item that has 'SAS' in the label. Having said that I didn't beleive in the existence of 1963 Pattern windroof trousers until I saw a pair a couple of weeks ago so I am always happy to be proved wrong!

I doubt if you will find any issue British combat clothing bearing "SAS" on the label.........this reference is normally only found in the detail issue description of the item in the NSN QM's catalogue.........part of the requirements for covert operations include having nothing on you to identify you as part of "special forces" so "SAS" on any label would be, quite frankly, as ridiculous as wearing a T-shirt beneath your smock with "I'm in the SAS" emblazoned on the front...:-D

Many commercial copies of garments do have "SAS" on the label, including items made by official MoD contractors. This is because the garments were likely ordered with this on to enhance sales to the unwary or otherwise......

Thanks. I don't suppose you could point me towards a picture of something suitable?

 

Cheers,

Mark

Sorry Mark - haven't got one to photograph and only saw one during my RAF days......I suspect that the item was (and still is) little-used........

Hi,

 

I have an OG P1960 smock and a P1968 smock - both made by James Smith & Co of Derby. Borrowing the pictures on the excellent 'forces80' website, the P1960 smock has the following style of label:

 

http://www.forces80.com/images/60pattlaba2.jpg

 

And the P1968 smock has this style of label:

 

http://www.forces80.com/images/labelsmock68pattern.jpg

 

Can I therefore assume that the P1960 smock is a late one and the P1968 smock is an early one, or is it more complicated than that?

 

Thanks,

Mark[/QUO

James Smith & Co were a pretty big company and made all sorts of British combat clothing from roughly the mid-1960's until the late 1970's......I have an article somewhere written by the former director describing the company going out of business and the skilled workforce being made redundant......they were perhaps the largest manufacturer of British combat clothing and had several factories, including Derby, Rhymney and Staveley......I can't remember at this point without looking up, but I think they may have been a subsidiary company of Cookson & Clegg Ltd although I may be wrong.....

 

They made late versions of the green '60 pattern smock & trousers, the same in DPM, the '68 and revised 77-onwards models of combat suit, tropical DPM, parkas, etc......

 

A clue with any British combat clothing is that NSN's (NATO stock numbers) did not generally appear on garment labels until around 1968-69......and prior to then most labels actually carried a date of manufacture........

Hi,

 

Amongst other things on the 'instructions' label of my 1971 dated Mk3 jacket it states:

 

"SCARF A scarf (Stores Ref. 22C\2587) should be stowed in the collar of the jacket for use under survival conditions."

 

Does anyone have some info on what this is? What it looks like? Can they be got hold of still? etc. I've tried searching, but haven't turned anything up.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

Just an olive drab knitted double-thickness short scarf........similar for the jacket liner (sleeveless nylon quilted thing very similar to the army issue) and waterproofs (green nylon).........

Something else I forgot to ask - although it's a more general question - why is the old British sizing system (Size 1, Size 2, etc) still being used for aircrew clothing when the army ceased using it long ago?

 

Thanks,

Mark

The RAF aircrew clothing persists using a numbered sizing system, but with the caveat "size must be determined by selective fitting"............sizes (on the MK2A & Mk3 clothing at least) run from 1 to 9......(not the same for flying suits though)....any larger than a 9 and you are too big for a plane !!

Steve - I think my 1952/53 gear is broadly the same as yours but I will double check to make sure.

 

I have examples of the 52 'Parka Middle' and 53 'Parka middle with detachable hood' but have never seen or even heard of a camo version....that would be rare indeed!

 

So am I to add the following to my rocking horse s**t list?!?:

 

- 1963 Pattern Windproof trousers

- 1953 Pattern Parka Middle - Camouflage

 

:-D:-D

I've seen a late 1950's experimental parka made in a cammo finish similar to the WW2 windproofs......but never an issue example in the flesh.....might just be a rumour but you never know !The original 1951 issue middle parka had an attached hood and no top pockets....later replaced in 1952 by a type with top pockets and a detachable hood used up to the 1970's........

The KF shirts were definitely the worst for me. Mine, issued in 1965, were made in Belfast in 1942 according to the label. They must have had bales of them left over from the war. Being pretty skinny, they just hung on me like a sack. The cheap black PT plimsolls weren't up to much either. You could feel every little stone when you were running. When you think of the science that goes into designing running shoes now and compare. The most puzzling thing was the pimples on the boots, both ammo and DMS. If the army required the leather flat then why didn't they just order it that way? Save all the messing about with candles and spoons. One thing I was sorry to have to give back was my greatcoat, in 1972. In return we got a skimpy little green quilted thing, like you see now being worn by horsey people. I think it was officially a liner for your combat jacket.

The sleeveless green nylon quilted "body warmer" was indeed the official replacement for the greatcoat, and was advertised as providing the same degree of warmth....hmmmmm having worn both at various times, I'd say the greatcoat was a winner (unless wet...when it became a great (weight) coat, that smelt of horse ****e)......

The Simbas? I think they were 72 'Cut' Denisons? I know some had Pre-59 pattern smocks on aswell.

 

I know Silvermans do a crap copy aswell now.

Crap price too !!!! Some very similar repro 59 pattern denisons were still being made into the 1990's.....wrong press fasteners, cuffs, collar lining and zips amongst other things.......worse feature was the cammo pattern.....although the colour was okay for a late model smock, the cammo pattern just wasn't quite right (too "busy").......some of these still turn up on Ebay for sale as originals but the dead giveaway is always the cammo pattern....

Chaps (and Ladies ?)

Does anyone have any examples of the 1950's era British combat trousers ? I have several examples of "Trousers, Combat, Sateen", the same but "1952" and "1953" patterns........none have any lining fitted......can anyone expand on this area ? I'd like to know if any of the 1950's era British combat trousers were fitted with a lining material........

As for Parka's.....there are two patterns of green "middle" parka, with and without hood fitted (plus pocket variations)....but rumour has it that a cammo version was made....any takers...???

It has all the attributes of the British 60 pattern smock (stitched collar etc) but is made of a thick cotton with a much looser or coarser weave than the British item.

It is interesting to note that the late-pattern Denison smock was commercially produced during the late-1970's by J & S Franklin LTD for some obscure African nation.....it is almost a dead copy of the British MoD version but with commercial labels..........they occasionally turn up for sale on Fleabay.......rumour has it that they were worn by the "enemy" in the film "The Wild Geese".....I think Survival Aids also made a fairly good copy too during the 1980's...??

Steve,

I've got a few Lodge plug caps (r.h. in picture), and they do indeed seem to be similar to the one used by the 'flea (see pic), but the problem is that they're supressed, and I wonder just how much extra resistance a Villiers flywheel magneto will take before it tells you to take a hike... (it must be said however that my Morris CD/SW did originally fit two supressors to each plug lead).

Funnily enough, the 'flea in the picture only seems to have one connector in the HT lead - possibly just the immobilizer? - which would mean that a supressed spark plug cap would be the natural thing to fit.

B.T.W., the K.L.G plug cap on the left is apparently what the BSA M20 would have fitted, would it have also been standard fare for other WD bikes?

Cheers,

Stef

Hi Stef

The left plug cap in your photo is correct for the M20 (it's actually a water-resistant cover rather than a plug cap) and only specified for that model...other WD bikes used other versions or the simple spade at the end of the lead......the one on the right is not the correct one for either the ML or the Flea......neither cap was suppressed !!! Keep looking !!!!! The Flea/ML one is similar but a bit larger.......it is very rounded and almost "bell" shaped with a lip at both the base and where the HT lead enters.....

The Flea did not have an immobiliser fitted into the HT lead.....this was because you could unscrew and remove the entire HT lead from the bike at the top of the magneto cover.......the suppressor fitted into the HT lead however, was the same as that fitted to the ML.....:-D

Dont know if this picture upload has worked but if it has it may be of interest. Its a version of the old British Army 60 pattern smock made for the Bahrain Defence Force in the 1970's

I remember during the 1980's one of the large surplus wholesalers had these for sale new....all small sizes......from memory, although copied from the '60 pattern British garment complete with stitched collar, etc, the garment was not particularly well made....and as for the cammo pattern....well !! "Duck Hunter" pattern....

The DPM para smock first appeared around 1977-78, although many TA units continued with the Denison until at least 1980.........

First issue DPM para smocks were made in the size range 1 to 9 plus "special" and rumour has it some "0" sizes were also made for the vertically challenged........around 1981-82 the old numbered sizes were replaced by metric sizing........

In 1984 the additional FFD pocket was added to the upper right sleeve.......

Early DPM para smocks have "Newey" marked press fasteners though smaller than those found on the Denison......some early smocks also feature a variant press fastener of the "stud & ring" type.......

Early DPM para smocks can be found in all sorts of colour variations.....some were made in the old '68 pattern 100% cotton sateen cloth although by '78 the newer semi-synthetic 50/50 or 70/30 cotton-modal fabric was also in production...I guess it depended on stocks of fabric held by manufacturers at the time.....

One word of warning to collectors....."dotted" type light shade DPM was still in production in the early 1980's though now of the semi-synthetic mix.....it is never reliable to go on the colour and pattern alone when dating any DPM smock or garment. Look for other clues !!!

Another update then...

Well, the engine is basically in the bag now, just the carb and strangler still to paint and a few nuts and bolts to sort out. The cylinder head proved to be a bit of a pain actually. The one on the bike had been welded up to take a 14mm plug, and the "perfect" one I bought from a dealer had stripped threads and had been ground down to the bottom fin (......). In the end I was lucky enough to find a brand new one on Ebay so that was one more problem sorted.

BTW, if anybody is interested in knowing what the elusive "ignition immobilizer" looks like, you will be able to see it just south of the supressor.

TTFN

Stef

Nice job Stefano ! For info, the carburetter assembly should be painted.....they were either green or SCC No.2 brown....I have a new old stock one and it's painted...the box they came in had both green and brown coloured carbs in it....Also, the plug cap should be a large black bakelite Lodge variety (they turn up on Ebay) and same as that used on the Flea.....