BSM

Redherring, I could think of a cheeky response or two but back to the thread.... the short answer is no! While there is quite a lot of Brit. related and created documentation there and also at the NAA as one would expect given the agreements made at the 1909 Defence Conference in London etc. [plus the seconded British Officers guiding the development of the AMF] but I have not come across the sort of material suggested earlier in the thread, i.e., the listing of pre WW1 vehicles impressed, purchased or otherwise by the WO for Military use etc.

If any list or lists still exist I believe you need to focus in areas such as, but not limited to, the early records for both the Police and the Intelligence Corps. We had a similar situation here in Australia for the same time frame. Nothing as yet for the Police prior to WW1 [mainly contracted civilian transport prior to WW1] however there is documented evidence that the Aust. Int. Corps (AIC) was charged with the responsibility of preparing a list of serviceable civilian transport in each State. That listing was used by the "powers that be" to identify and purchase etc. new and used lorries for the first 2 AASC Companies to embark in 1914. The hunt is ongoing for said lists.

Back to the British side of the equation....given once again that our Military methodology was based directly on the British system I would suggest that something similar occurred in the UK therefore R.Int. Corps records or those of the WO Branch they reported to may hold something.

When the Aust. 8th and 9th Companies set up at Romsey they promptly received a visit followed by correspondence [i have copies] from the local Police chief regarding WO registration/vehicle marking requirements which supports a good Police understanding and possible listing (?) of transport used for Military purposes leading up to 1914 in Britain. This also confirms a direct link between the WO and the Police on this matter.

I don't know much about the English Local Government system but later documentation issued by the Local Government Board on matters "Military Registration" supports another source of vehicle records which may still exist in archives somewhere. The treasure hunt continues!! Rod

I wonder if Rod Dux has come across any information in the AWM? Are you there Rod?

That is indeed sad news re Jack's recent demise. Was only a couple of weeks back we were corresponding re a new Brit. LCP book that I put him on to. Both he and the Ford will be sorely missed in the Centenary observances. Please pass on condolences to wife and family. Rod

Would appear that the British Berna group are on the money. Couple of good reference vehicles may be seen on this link ... http://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/search/q/0-0-0-0-0-0-1-1-Berna.html

Yes Tim, during WW1 all home front Military Transport used the D^D prefix to a number believed to be centrally issued from AHQ (as it was) in Melbourne. Rod

Second gordon's motion as they say. Great set of interesting images per usual and looks like you had a good morning's "work out". Who needs a gym! Another milestone reached. Rod

Thanks for sharing. Nice clear images. Unfortunately the troops are the focus in a couple of them but as Red Herring has stated.... not difficult to miss the distinctive filler of the Halley radiator so one would have to go with his ID. The ASC over BUL is a common vehicle ID for transport issued from that source. Assuming said vehicle was embarked for France it would have had a number change as soon as it arrived "in country" to use a more modern term! Rod

Jack great to see the progress and that your priorities are better placed....stirring he said. Forgot I had seen a particular article on the site of the University of Glasgow until recently. Link is below for those interested. The article focuses on mapping the desert and of course the LCP gets a mention. Of particular note is the one and only image in the article of such a patrol and the Model T's being used are "Tourers". Scarce image given the content. Have seen numerous pics of the LCP and British LAMB fords which are all the cut down version similar to Jack's example. Rod

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_41156_en.pdf

Hello Doug.

 

Do you think it could be one of these? Just not sure what "one of these" is?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]76762[/ATTACH]

Robert this is a nice image. Any further info re same??

These notes from Grace's Guide re McCurd .... McCurd announced his first lorry chassis in November 1912 at which time the company was based at 10-11 South Crescent, Store Street, London WC. During the period 1912-1914 the Company produced 2, 3 and 5-ton bonneted worm-drive trucks. McCurd had a factory at Finchley in 1913, and moved to Blyth Road, Hayes, Middlesex, in late 1921. Both John Sharp's and Rob Langham's flickr sites have good studies of the same McCurd lorry with that distinctive radiator and running gear .... http://www.flickr.com/photos/king_ed/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/roblangham

As far as any examples being imported into Australia I don't have an answer. Not to say that the make did not make it here but in the time I spent researching the topic I did not come across same as being offered to the ACMF. Rod

On this Anzac Eve may I say what a "Top Job" you have done. Had a similar experience moving and re-riveting a chassis cross member on an Aust. version of a CMP Artillery Tractor to accommodate a winch. Look forward to the finished vehicle..... Rod

Very nice images. The second or lower example is a Siddeley Deasy I believe - also used by the AIF. Rod

Hi John, Hans has just bought the correct light from me.

Ian I just tripped over your post re supplying Hans with the correct trailer light. In the image you provided there is a second used light below the boxed item. Do you have a spare of that example that you would be willing to sell to a good cause? Regards ... Rod

Obviously a vast and fascinating subject - and I guess that most of us know very little about it. I hope that all the records of it are safe for the benefit of future generations.

 

Tony

Certainly is and to finish this bit off without labouring the point....ADAPs and DSC were combined to form MT Companies in March 1918 and as a matter of note the 4th Australian MT Company operated 83 "J" Model Thornycrofts from that point until return to British Vehicle Recovery Parks in 1919 and a settling of accounts. Not to detract from the main thrust of this thread but referring back to my post re the Dennis lorries transferred to the DSC from a British Unit en route to Salonika.....Michael Young makes a point in his book on the ASC that the British MT Unit supporting the Kiwis (1NZMTC) were less than impressed with the age and condition of the Dennis lorries they inherited in 1918 from the Australians. These were the same lorries issued to the 17th DSC in exchange for their new Peerless in 1915. As they say, what goes around comes around etc!!! It would be fair to say that the Dennis image in your collection would be one of those vehicles which in turn would also date the pic.

We continued to use the type. Attached pic from the period between the Wars taken at Fort Lytton in Brisbane is from the State Library collection. Rod

Thanks Rod - most interesting! I am not familiar with the abbreviations "DAP" and "DSC" - can you elaborate for me please?

 

Tony

Tony first off DAP is Divisional Ammunition Park and DSC is Divisional Supply Column and the most expedient to briefly explain the fit is to quote this para from my book...."With the Unit settling in, the O.C. visited the Director of Transport (General Boyce) at G.H.Q. St. Omer where he was informed that the D.A.P.s were to be reorganised into Divisional Sub Parks under a Corps Ammunition Park. This meant that 3 of the workshops, 3 of the stores lorries, approximately half of the G.S. lorries and 2 of the touring cars were to be withdrawn and sent to 2^nd Army Troops Supply Column, St. Omer.

Whilst the O.C. once again pushed the point regarding vehicle ownership with little success initially, he eventually won the day. On his recommendation and with the support of key senior British Officers with whom he had served in the Boer War, a second Australian Unit was created as the 23^rd Division Ammunition Sub Park (known initially by its British ID as the 492^nd Company) from the A.A.S.C., men and vehicles previously sent to the Base Depot at St. Omer when D.A.P.s were reduced to Sub Parks. The transport numbers of the mechanised Supply Columns were not affected by this particular change to the War Establishment for transport in the A.S.C. and A.A.S.C."

Lt.Col. Tunbridge (OC DAP) lead the mounted Unit that supported the Brit. Unit in the defence of Elands River in the Boer War so he was well connected. Rod

The export of the two "Thornys" in the middle of the Great War to Australia really is quite interesting! Australians took a significant part during the conflict - but I always assumed that any motor vehicles supplied to them were probably given to them when they reached "over here". It would seem unlikely that the lorries would be sent to Australia and then brought back here again!

 

So were these two - and only two in this consignment - sent over perhaps for training or familiarisation purposes - so that Australian forces knew what to expect when they reached Europe?

 

The sort of question that Roy Larkin might be able to answer - if the answer is not available from one of our Australian friends!

 

Tony

Tony, not so according to official documents. The first 2 Companies that embarked in December 1914 were not required in Egypt so they moved on to England. They left Australia with MT which included 125 Lorries GS 3ton. 6 (six) of these were early model Thornycroft. In 1915 their broad mix of makes were traded in at Bulford for mainly Peerless before they went to France as the DAP and the DSC for the British 17th Division in July. Not long after they arrived in country the Brits snaffled the new Peerless belonging to the DSC and issued them to a Brit Unit on its way to Salonika. The Aust. DSC were then issued with some very worn Dennis Lorries which they operated until the Homogenity scheme of 1918.

Also from a period motoring journal dated the 1st of August 1916 is an image of a Thornycroft engine chassis. Caption says that it arrived with a shipment the month before and that three of the Thornycroft were earmarked for the Military. Total not mentioned. Accounts were kept for all of the MT procured from Imperial sources but that is something you could write pages on so we shall leave it for the time being! Rod

Tim, like many others I have been following the family, Thorny thread with keen interest and having been involved in later Military MT restorations I can well appreciate the effort and cost expended on projects from the WW1 period. Having engineering expertise in the restoration group is a marked advantage and it has been quite educational to read how each problem has been faced and overcome internally or with some welcome outside Forum assistance. Congratulations and may your planned restoration activities over the Xmas break be productive. As it is that time of year I don't suppose a bit of Thornycroft trivia would go astray. As you are aware a number of examples were shipped to Australia before and during the conflict. Attached is a copy of a period sales document for 2 "J" chassis numbers I came across. Rod

A worthy project and as you so rightly say, it is going to be a lengthy one. I trust the enclosed specs. are of some assistance. Early in 1916 the Central Flying School was in dire need of some heavy transport. AHQ in Melbourne had offered the choice of a Straker Squire or the FIAT 18BL. I believe the latter won the day and the attached is a page from the relevant NAA file in Canberra. From the same file a Model 18C was purchased by Eyes and Crowle in Adelaide in 1914.

Good hunting and have a great festive season etc. Rod

Dan you really are getting right back to basics. A new, old design part fabricated every other month or so. Full marks for your perseverance and I for one look forward to the ongoing story to completion and back on the road. Rod

Jack, good to see the next 'bit'. Similar to others on this chapter of HMVF....a labour of love no doubt and looking good. Festive season closing rapidly ... we had a good dose of festive cheer today and another ex Artillery, MT restoration group in Sydney did likewise. This year seems to have slipped by at an increased pace!!!! Rod

This is a good pic of LC^0714, a Brit. Rolls Armd. Car taking a break in front of Light Horsemen from what is believed to be the Australian Mounted Division in Palestine. Image courtesy of the University of Newcastle. Rod

Bit quiet on the thread so I thought I would add another nice Ford image. Pic is of a couple of Mounted Division, Australian Engineer Signalmen in a Ford "T" on the banks of the Black Sea. Image courtesy University of Newcastle. Rod

Have not seen too many images of WW1 Brit Tanks in Palestine. This is a nice one with a few Australian Light Horsemen checking out a couple of covered heavy weights. Image courtesy of the university of Newcastle. Rod

A couple of imqages that may well assist your deliberations. Regards...Rod

Great images but they beg the question "just who was keeping an eye on who?" Back to basics, for the general benefit of us all, thanks for taking the time to dig them out and posting same. Rod

Great image of the Peerless, particularly the "Army" Mark on the dash or fire wall. Given the smaller involvement of the Allies in this Theatre of Operations there are not a lot of images of MT in circulation so if you have more it would be good to see them. As an aside, the Australian Divisional Supply Column supporting the British 17th Division took new Peerless to France. The Military Planners had decided to send a British Infantry Division including the 14th DSC to Salonika late in 1915. Soon after arriving in France the Australian Unit were ordered to exchange their new Australian Peerless (44 in number) for well worn Dennis from the 14th DSC. Today's trivia item!! Rod

You are certainly on the money regarding the clarity. Thanks for sharing. Pity that chap is standing in front of the first part of the number on the rear of the vehicle. This Ford is "bare bones" as far as the body is concerned as most of the ford vans, LAMB fords and LCP vehicles in Palestine (images actually sighted by the writer in the past 6 years) during the War were much better endowed with body metal etc. This one is similar to the earlier versions seen in Egypt during the campaign against the Senussi. Rod

Compliments of my mate Bob Moseley in SA.....

2010 - bought by the Alice Springs Road Transport Hall of Fame.

Regards....Rod