Fleet103

Sorry Folks - only just caught up with these. FV1609. Great pic - I only hope that Cadman's - as identified by Niels V - whomsoever they are - but apparently restorers - do it justice. It would be great to see it in the flesh as it were, but I just wonder who or what (museum) would be bothered with it? It would be a great shame for it to be restored but then to languish. That said, one would have thought that the AEC ACV I knew, with only 3 being built, that one would have been worthy of saving, and not just cast to the mercies of the ranges. Shame really. 10FM68. Sadly, I agree that the British Army continues to self-combust; I suppose I'd better not relate as to how I really feel(!) I feel sure that the Formation HQs of the 50s must have utilized the 6 x 6 ACVs; even given the idiosyncrasies - and even personal whims of Commanders - it must have made tactical and survival sense to utilise a fleet of these vehicles. I take your point about the requirement of extra vehicles for the R Signals - squiggly amp never my strong point. I've scrutinized my copy of "The British Army in Germany (BAOR & After) - An Organizational History 1947-2004", which perhaps not 100% accurate is all I could find from open sources; I chose 1957-58 and in addition to what I refer to as Corps Troops, there were 4 x Divs: 2 Inf, 4 Inf, 6 Armd, and 7 Armd, all composed of 3 Brigades each. If say (loads of supposition here I admit, again) each Div HQ had a Main and a Step-Up, then working to, roughly 12 ACVs at Main and perhaps 6 at the respective Step-Ups, that would require some 72 ACVs; I've cut down some of the Staff functions which could have been in Box-Bodied Vehicles (BBVs) and not really factored in the R Signals efforts - not least as we've only 150-odd to play with. Once I do a similar computation with the 12 x Brigade HQs, even working to a greatly reduced number of say, 5 vehicles at Main, and perhaps only 2 at Step-Up, then there simply aren't enough ACVs to go round! However, I am sure that given the differing type of Divisions, some of the HQs would conceivably have been a mixture of soft-skinned vehicles and tentage, nary an ACV in sight eg the Infantry Divs. Ditto, in a way in the Brigade HQs. So, perhaps the Armoured CVs were only allocated to the Armoured HQs - which would make a bit more sense I feel. it would replicate that I encountered in the mid 80s, when at 1st Infantry Brigade (which had the UKMF role); we were all based on Land Rovers and tentage (as was 3 (UK) Div when at Bulford in the early 70s), whereby in BAOR, of course, our opposite numbers were under armour (432 series). Anyway, this is all really fantasy island really, though I've tried to apply a certain logic(!) As you point out, there's an awful lot we don't seem to know about the 50s, and even the 60s, especially regarding Command and Control. Incidentally, I am also a keen military modeller - labouring mostly in Cold War subjects in 1:35 scale; however, last year I began a model of Corps Main (in the wargaming scale of 1:300 - and "Yes" I nearly did go blind) . I just wanted to try and replicate the layout of the Diamonds, and not least a model of the Commander's ACV. it's just about completed though I need to add a few more figures and an extra helicopter. The spacings are an artificiality as even in this relatively tiny scale, I had to compress distances. I appreciate this might be the wrong part of the forum to do so but here's a brief overview (I've a few more than just the one but I don't wish to ruffle any feathers/site protocols). For what it's worth then, Corps Main (if I can remember how to attach pics): I've remembered where I found lots of images from the 50s; it's on the very comprehensive site offered up by the Farndale family; enjoy: farndalefamily.co.uk/Individuals from 1922/FAR00911 - Martin Baker Farndale.htm

It gets worse (to my mind) – we now have a “Ranger Regiment” in the British Army; I mean, really? Anyway, back to vehicles and more confounding. The Dorchester is indeed roomy; I had (an illegal) stomp around the one in the Signals Museum at Blandford a few years ago, albeit briefly. I am surprised that they didn’t soldier on a bit longer; being based on the Matador spares and running expertise would not have been a problem I feel; I recall Matadors still giving good service when I visited 94 Loc Regt RA as a young member of the ACF in, I think, 1968. However, I note that the 6x6 could field 8 (crew) plus 2 in the front, so perhaps it was preferred because of that, or, perhaps with comms kit conceivably getting smaller, it sort of evolved into a roomier version? And what happened after 1959? Did formation HQs slip effortlessly into the command version of Saracen? If so, it’s not especially well documented that’s for sure. If Corps HQ ever had the 6 x 6s, perhaps they continued with BBVs until the AEC ACV came on the scene in what must have been the late 60s. I consider Corps to be a sort of sui generis in the HQ world as it was so large, but if Saracen was adopted for the Brigades and Divs, then there must be evidence at Blandford, and in a way, there is as I’m sure they have a Saracen ACV amongst their collection; probably time for another visit! The topmost pic of the 6 x 6 is interesting in that it would seem to confirm the stowage rack as a common fitting (also shown on one of the pics I offered up earlier); I also wonder what “D5” means? To my mind, it indicates that there may have been at least 5 such vehicles in a Div HQ – supposition I admit. As for the Dorchester with “42” on it, I would suggest that this is the wartime AOS number for a Gunner Field Regiment; why and how they’ve acquired an ACV I don’t quite know. I say this as the serial number has not been replaced by the post war registration numbers (featuring the “Z” for wartime kit), so what I’m suggesting is that this is a wartime pic. To my (tidy clerical) mind, it would seem logical that the Dorchesters were binned for whatever reason, and replaced by the 6x6 version; as identified earlier on the site there were 150-odd made so that would be enough (with some spare – training?) for most of the Formation HQs we had, and certainly those in BAOR. A Div HQ at that time, I would have thought (more supposition I admit) a vehicle per staff function viz: 1 x Comd 1 x G Int 1 x G Ops 1 x G Air 1 x Plans 1 x CRA 1 x CRE 1 x Chief Signals Officer (CO of Regt/OC of Sqn?) but also perhaps a Cipher function? SD and Trg branches not included as on deployment the Staff concerned would augment the HQ in general – or be at Step Up. So, again in my fantasy, there would need to be some vehicles duplicated at Step Up, so we’re probably talking about 10 or so at the supporting Div HQ Signals regiment? That’s assuming the duplicate HQ/change of command function was applied of course. The alternative might be that most of the above functions would be undertaken in Box Bodied Vehicles – Bedford QLs then RLs (as I knew at Corps). This is further confounded by a Signaller’s account I came across earlier today when describing his interaction with the 6 x 6: Above is an AEC Armoured Command Vehicle Signals Centre as used by 6 Armoured Division Signals circa 1953/56, it weighed in at 21 tons and had a 6x6 axle base. Each brigade in the division had one as standard equipment. This particular unit was at HQ 20 Armoured Brigade at Munster and I was its crew chief for 2 years. It carried a crew of ten, crew chief (Sigs Office Supt), driver, switchboard op, ciphers (2), Sigcen (3), base lineman, Fuller phone/wireless operator, a bit crowded even for a pig of this size. It was a 'beast' but could lick along at 45/50 mph, it had to be fast to keep up with the rest of our armour (Centurions). Possibly Class A (Specialist), I don't know of any outfit that had them, I never saw any at 7 Armoured or 11 Armoured Divs, that was the other two armoured divisions plus 2 Infantry Div that made up 1 Corps in the 50's. Taken from the BAOR Locations website. This sort of shoots down my theory! So perhaps there was only 1 x ACV at each Fmn HQ used as a specialist Comms vehicle as described. Bugger! However, it doesn’t really make sense given that there were so many, apparently in good nick, ACVs available. I suppose all I’m really doing is making the waters muddier. As to WW2 vehicles in service in the 50s, I agree it’s a fascinating subject. I have seen somewhere, and I’ve been racking my brains, footage of an Alecto in Egypt; I’m sure too I’ve seen images of Dodge vehicles also in Egypt. Also Cromwell tanks used as AOPs alongside Sextons, all bulled up as only the RA can manage. I’ll get searching! (Thanks for posting the pics)

Pretty sure these would be the same as the WW2 type ie Hessian strips, woven through a net then tied off; I used both the plastic scrim type and the Hessian strips when I was detailed off to "make" a camouflage net back in the early 70s. The Hessian came in rolls roughly around 3" wide, in green and brown.

I suppose that in my trade of Staff Clerk RAOC, the arcane designations in the Staff world became, quite early on, second nature to me, so the many iterations of confounding titles soon fell into place, but that was primarily because I wanted to learn; it was, after all, my first posting, and as an ex Junior Leader (remember them?) I was keen to make my mark. “BOWO” always caused me some amusement, though never to the incumbent’s face; and as my postings changed I recall a DOWO, and even a FOWO. Others took a bit of work such as “SC(A) Disc” (Staff Captain Adjutant General’s Branch – Discipline), or “DADOS” (Deputy Assistant Director Ordnance Services). As I say, it all fell into place relatively easily. In my first posting I was assigned to G Branch – albeit the “Security” bit of it; I noticed that amongst my peer trade group, those in G Branch considered themselves to be better than those lesser mortals in A or Q, which I suppose is no bad thing for young soldiers to feel! I have to say that I too feel the Army has lost its way to no small degree, although this has been going on for years; I too deplore the adoption of so many Americanisms, but this has been largely down to the predations of a particular CGS, who embraced all things US, to the point where we now, to my mind, laughably, even have an Army Sergeant Major – absolutely risible – in my opinion of course; but then, for the past couple of decades we’ve endured some pretty mediocre CGS’. However, I’m sure this isn’t really the site to let off my fears over the Army, suffice to say perhaps, we are now so muddled that we have bastardized the old maxim “The Army recruits from society” to “The Army must reflect society” and have reaped the whirlwind accordingly, with all the adoption of the social mores of a weak civilian ethos now prevailing at every level. Rant over(!) I’ve been giving some thought to the question of the use of the 6 wheeled AEC ACVS, which was the second question when this thread began; I know that at Div HQ in WW2 there were at least 5 ACVs (as described in Kenneth Macksey’s “Battle”). Whether or not these were the Dorchester type or the latter 6 wheeled versions I don’t quite know. I suspect that the Dorchesters faded from view, especially post-war as the larger 6 wheelers would have been perceived simply as better (and roomier of course). The formation HQs would still have been a mix of ACV and BBV. Rooting around several R SIGNALS websites (and others), I’ve discovered that the 6x6 versions certainly seem to have been employed at both Brigade and Div-level HQs, (supported by a Sig Sqn and Sig Regt respectively as I'm sure is known). Here is an image from a Bde HQ in 1953 and an image from the National Army Museum showing a vehicle from a Div HQ. The text from the latter cites that the 6x6 was in use until 1959, which feels about right. I hope this is of interest even if not a defining result. The Div HQ vehicle was assigned to the CRE, according to the text.

I suppose I was lucky – from a general interest point of view perhaps – in that I served at every level of formation HQ from Brigade through to Army Group. I too recall the cramped working conditions of the inevitable FV 432 and canvas combo; I never quite understood why we never invested in say, a Brit version of the US M577 (the M113 with raised sides); it wouldn’t have killed the designers to have had a go at that surely? The ability to stand would have paid off in spades I’m sure when it came to well, just plain comfort let alone ergonomics. I too was surprised at the disappearance of the wheeled ACVs; as I reported we had 2 – Main and Rear HQs, and that was that. I believe the designers envisaged far more in an HQ complex but for whatever reason, that never came off; as you identify, Soviet artillery let alone rocket launchers would have made short work of the soft-skinned office trucks, which provided the main equipment of the staff complexes in Corps HQ. The ACV was in fact the habitat of the Corps Commander; all the staff complexes were referred to as “Diamonds”; the Commander was in Diamond 2 (Diamond 1, I think, was his personal quarters and possibly senior officers’ Mess). In addition to the ACV there were around half a dozen Bedford RL office trucks, for the staff functions of Ops, Plans, Int, and possibly a Nuclear Ops/Plans – I can’t quite remember. I was ensconced in a Land Rover/9 x9 set up as part of the G Security Staff branch. The old tradition staff branches of G, A and Q were then the norm. use was made of both the extended tent sides on the vehicles (normally the domain of the respective clerks) and the sealed doors on the ACV to connect the staff functions. I seem to recall a sort of metal mesh platform facilitating the location and access to the various vehicles. We did sometimes ensconce ourselves in German villages or disused factory complexes, but were more often dispersed somewhere in the depths of the Teutoburger forest in the Detmold area. The whole was encircled by Dannert wire and patrolled by members of the Mixed Services Organisations. Other Diamonds, not too far away but around say 500m or so, were all numbered to whatever SOP was in vogue; I never even saw such a volume but then I was a young private soldier and no one told me very much at all; in fact, my confusion and mystification about it all was paramount, which is why I probably remember so much – or at least the overarching ignorance of what was expected of me(!) However, other Diamonds, of similar set up but sans any ACV of course, were Arty, Engrs, Armr etc, all reflecting the Staff branches of the peacetime set-up in Bielefeld. Incidentally, the ACV was referred to as “The Pig”; this nomenclature was nothing to do with the Humber 1T armoured truck. When I asked one of the drivers why it was so called, he simply replied “Because it’s a pig to drive”. Therein perhaps, was a clue to the vehicle’s disappearance, it might have been as simple as the supporting transport squadron not liking it very much. I wonder....

I'm not too sure if I've attached the images correctly; anyway, I thought someone might be inetersted in these 2 x views of the beast.

This may all be a little late in the day to answer the original post, but I can clarify the use of the post War AEC ACV (FV 11061). My first posting as a young soldier was to HQ 1st (British) Corps based in Bielefeld, Germany; this was in 1971. The HQ – when deployed into the field – was a vast arrangement of Bedford RL Office Trucks, tentage, Land Rovers and with an ACV at Main HQ and at Step Up HQ. To try and make this simple, in the interests of survivability and dispersion, the HQ was split into 3 components: “Main” – the principal HQ which would fight the battle, “Step Up” which was a duplicate of Main, and “Rear”, which dealt with all administrative and logistic aspects. Main and Step Up would be separated by say, around 20 miles or so, while Rear would be stationed further back, literally in the rear, but this was due to its responsibilities as opposed to any status-dilution. It follows that Main and Step Up would alternate according to the tempo of battle, staff duties and planning; command would be “passed” in the then parlance and Step-Up would become Main, and Main relegate to Step Up – I hope that’s clear! The 2 ACVs were on charge to 14 Sqn RCT which was the supporting transport squadron to Corps HQ. Apparently only 3 of these vehicles were built, and I suspect the 3rd was on trial with a Divisional HQ. During my time there I witnessed the transition of paint schemes from Deep Bronze Green to the matt black and green scheme. I hope this helps fill in some gaps somewhere along the line.