Great War truck

Quite right too! There is far too much stuff lying around that is still live and dangerous and i am amazed that people will take live stuff home with them. I bought a very nice 18 pounder shell and case off the internet only after the seller provided additional photos of the thing entirely dismantled. Even now i am a little wary of it.

As for the WW1 truck collectors, we are a very international group and we all talk to each other and have a pretty good idea of what is around and what is lost forever. But then every now and again something rare pokes its head out of the woodwork and we all are suprised, update our records and then start looking for the next thing. Latest additions to the list of surviving WW1 trucks is another Peerless in South Africa and a Leyland in Australia. I started doing a list of surviving WW1 trucks and got to 65 in the UK alone. I am sure that i can easily double that by including France and the USA if i put my mind to it.

London to Brighton. Yes we have not done that for a few years. Both the Autocars completed it quite happily, but we have never been 100% happy with the running of the FWD, so we have not taken it. Sometimes it goes like the proverbial bat out of hell, and sometimes it just does not go at all. Instead of tinkering with the FWD and getting it running well we have got stuck into the Dennis. I guess the interest is more the restoration of them as opposed to running them. But anyway, you might just see the Dennis on the Brighton seafront in 2008 (maybe).

Tim (too)

I thought that you might all be interested in these remarkable photos that were passed to me by Hayes Otoupalik.

With the passing of a Mr Furrer in 1987 the considerable contents of his WW1 museum (in Arizona) were put up for sale and jointly purchased by Hayes Otoupalik and Gordon Clare. These have now been mostly dispersed to other museums and collectors now. The contents really were considerable and were i beleive the largest collection of WW1 transport in the world. Furrer purchased half of the MC Bradley Military Rental business in the 60's and opened a museum with the contents. Previously these vehicles had been supplied to the film industry and featured in many WW1 films such as Wings. The tanks featured as Japanese tanks in the WW2 film Sands of Iwo Jima.

The contents of the museum was immense and included 9 Liberty B trucks, 2 FWD's, 2 US FT17 Tanks, 23 M1909 escort wagons, 2 X 75 mm guns, limbers and caissons , field kitchens, searchlight, the list goes on and on. Not even starting on the uniforms, helmet and equipment. Most of this has now found places within museums across the USA, providing rare artefacts that would, if it had not been the foresight of MC Bradley and the film industry have been lost forever. Here are a selection of photos. Enjoy, for you will never see the like of such a collection again.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/Greatwartruck/FWDArizona1.jpg[/img]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/Greatwartruck/LibertyArizona1.jpg[/img]

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http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/Greatwartruck/LibertyArizona5.jpg[/img]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/Greatwartruck/LibertyArizona2.jpg[/img]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/Greatwartruck/FWDArizona2.jpg[/img]

This was such a superb topic, it would be shame to let it fall by the wayside. Have we seen this picture before?

Or this one?

Buckets were there for the select few that liked to expose them in public, but i still believe that they were never carried from the tow hook unless you were wanting to send a message to a like minded person who likes to get his bucket out!

Comments and abuse anybody?

Tim (too)

Well i cant find our copy of SSGB, but it might be in a box in my parents loft. I will take a look next time that i am down there. However i have found that i still have "It happened here" on VHS. I have just zipped through it and i got most of my facts right. The germans have just about left Britain to be controlled by Blackshirts and British SS while they go fight the Russians. Americans are dropping weapons to the British resistance and the SS are being SS like. Depressing, but it could well have happened just like that.

Tim (too)

Yes, the Russians had a great deal of ex British stuff left behind when we pulled out in 1919/1920. Some of these remain at Kubinka. Austin armoured cars, Mark IV tanks etc. A very interesting time.

There is a famous picture taken at the end of WW2 of a German WW1 armoured car outside the Reichs Chancellry. It is in the After the Battle, "Fall of Berlin book".

Tim (too)

Iwas afraid that you would say that. Now we can unravel some more controversey.

Basically it is a film set during the 40's when Germany has gained control of the UK. It is however controlled by British Facists, BUF and British SS. The film took a great deal of time to film - about 15 years and seems to be a bit random in its plot. The plot does however revolve around a British nurse/ambulance driver (K2) who concerned about the disorder joins the British facists, then comes across atrocities and then gets recaptured by the British and American army who have reinvaded and captured Britian from Cornwall and Wales. Things i specifically remember is that this is the first film that i saw that had a JagdPanther in it (i presume that this is the one at Bovington as it did not have the bloody great hole cut in the side like the IWM one), British SS executing civilians, British nurses giving lethal injections to British Jews and then to cap it all a massacre of hundreds of British SS by British and American troops. Lots of controversy and time to reopen an old topic perhaps.

It also had a nice group (3?) of Schwimwagens and the SS were all wearing genuine SS uniforms. Probably the most famous bit was of a Luftwaffe band marching into Trafalgar Square and being attacked by a horde of bystanders. This was not staged. The Director did march a band into the square in German uniform and he then filmed them being attacked by the people standing there (the filming of this did start in the 50's remember).

It is a sod of a long film, and although i had it on video i think i recorded over it as it could not watch it a second time. It does come onto TV occasionally.

Questions from the audience?

Tim (too)

I started reading it, but didnt finish (i think i was about 11 at the time). I think i gave it to my parents, so will try to look it out as they never throw anything away.

From the little i remember of it, the blurb on the back said that the King was held in the tower of London and that Churchill had been hung from a lamp post. At 11 years old i found this a bit too disturbing and was one of the reasons i gave up on it.

In a similar vein, did you see the film "It happened here"?

Tim (too)

Good question.

Quite a few WW1 vehicles wre used by the British in WW2. Peerless AA trucks had been kept in war reserve and at the outset of WW2, battery's of these armed with the 3" AA gun (said to be the best AA gun manufactured during WW1) were sent to London. A famous photo exists of one of these on London bridge. I will try to post it later on. Peerless armoured cars were also widely used by homeguard units.

The Irish army still had 7 Peerless on their books by 1945. The truck that never wears out!

A chap we know was in the Navy in WW2 and they had a Mark IV tank ("Excellent" i think it was) as a gate guardian. The CO suggested that they get it working again for base defence. Our friend was involved in this. He made a long list of all of the parts that were needed, sent a request into the stores and everything arrived the next day much to everyones suprise. The stuff must have been sitting on shelves for 30 years.

On the same subject, my Brother Steve found a pile of WW1 Thornycroft bonnet catches that had just been released by the MOD quite recently. You wonder what else is still in the stores?

Tim (too)

Was that the novel written by Len Deighton?

Tim (too)

Tagg

Thank you for a well reasoned and sensible reply. I appreciate you re-editing your video, it means a lot that you would do that. As i mentioned on Youtube your video is very well produced and it is not obviously filmed in modern times. It would be easy for people to think that it was original.

I wish you success with your chosen path and hope that you may revisit and contribute to the forum in the future.

Tim (too)

Sorry, i was responding to Tagg not you Jerry. We were obviously writing at the same time.

Tim (too)

Whoah! Steady there Tiger! I have been considering how to reply logically to your comments.

I knew that you were not posting a video just showing executions, but incorporating a recreation of a "war atrocity" during a battle reenactment. I have been in re enactments where this happened and felt very uncomfortable about it. Filiming it and posting it to the web is another matter. As you say, things are very different over here as they are from over there especially at public battles reenatments.

The tabloids do love attacking us whenever possible and are always on the look out for ammunition. The Military Vehicle Trust (MVT) used to stage regular battles at their shows. However they banned all SS Units a while back. This arised as a result of a number of complaints from WW2 veterans about them doing the Nazi salute and one particular SS unit fielding a WW2 SS veteran in a reenactment. Anyway, two years ago the MVT banned all german reenactors from their shows, however they did not stop the reenactments. An example of this occurred at the National MVT show when a group of 50 US renactors, supported by halftracks and 6 tanks attacking a small group of trees. The trees did lose the battle incidentally. The SS do appear at other shows (for now) such as Bovington, W & P and Detling which all appear to be unregulated, although this may change. At the W & P show i observed a group of skin heads who were enjoying the show. The one in front of me had the joyful expression "Too White for You" tattood on the back of his head. Other nutters from around the world were also there. A group of Dutch political facists were also there. A family of four who on arriving at the show in their camper vans, raised a flagpole in the car park from which they flew a swastika. The family then reappeared from their van wearing various Nazi uniforms (Brown shirt, Hitler Youth and Hitler Maiden) which they wore for the week that they were there. Every morning they would fly the swastika, salute it, and every evening they would hold another ceromony and take it down again. I suppose as wearing Nazi uniforms is a criminal offence in most European Countrys, coming to the W & P show is a way that they can live their life in the public eye and dress up without criticism (a bit like transvetites and people who like to dress up as babys - so SKY seems to tell me - not from my personal experiences you understand).

I feel that my hobby is being hijacked by others and that the newspapers love a good story and would be thrilled to print this sort of thing. The Government has to react to public opinion and would be forced to leap in. The staged execution is small in the context of this, and obviously we do need to put out house in order first (especially at W & P) as it seems that we are doing this ourselves. Although saying that i have not seen pictures of it on the web.

Executions and atrocities took place on all sides. We must not forget about it, it is part of war. These things have always happened and always will. But re enacting it and making it available for the world to see will pander to the whims of those who will want to ban our hobby, and this is a serious possibility.

The re enacting hobby can exist without the MV hobby and vica versa. However the two can work together very well and many would say compliment each other. But we are all tarred with the same brush and if one screws up bad then we all suffer. The purpose of my initial post was my concern that your video will have a negative influence upon my hobby. I dont think you a sadistic SOB or insane, although some of the people that are reenacted are. Your video showed a non understanding of the difficult situation we face to our hobby in Europe (and understandably so), and which is creeping ever closer towards you in the USA. The ban on certain MV's is present in France and is something that will face us here soon i am sure. I believe that one US State is looking to ban private ownership of all MV's. With the rise of the Christian Right in the USA, how safe is your hobby (maybe even safer perhaps?). If a shooting at school were ever related an insane re enactor, what chance has your hobby? It wont take much for us all to fall together. Some are more vulnerable than others, but we are all vulnerable make no mistake about that.

Tim (too)

Tagg

Well done mate. Good for you, for all of the reasons stated previously.

Tim (too)

Well i tried the voice of reason and this is the response:

"No I am not missing the point. We had a public reenactment in Oregon, where the Germans were forced to lose to the Soviets, and after the battle was over, all German soldiers were either shot on site, or beat to death by rifles. The crowd had no problem with that. If those were Germans doing that people would have freaked out, just like you are all doing today. If you want to complain fine...but im not editing or pulling the video."

I am more than a little suprised that the show organisers would force the Russians to kill all the Germans at the end of the show. It seems that we are a world apart.

Anyway, i have put in another request for the video to be pulled and will leave it at that. I am so sick of this.

Tim (too)

My attempt to flag the video as inappropriate has not worked. Please someone else have a go and see if we can get it removed.

In the meantime it would be good if we could shame the guy into taking it off (or at least editing it), but i think that he is too thick skinned (or maybe thick) to notice. My latest post to it is:

You are missing the point i think. I am quite aware of the war crimes committed by the allies as well as the Germans, but that does not make it OK to recreate them. If you were to reenact the torture and murder of US soldiers in Iraq, let alone the atrocities carried out on the Germans during the war by the allies and then post it to the web, i would be equally appalled. Your inclusions of these actions do you no credit to what is otherwise a very well produced film.

My concern is that now that more people are seeing it, that word will spread and the wrong people will get to see it. How much would the Daily Mirror pay for it?

Still troubled Tim (too)

Ths Das Reich group in the video are based in the USA. There is a UK based Das Reich group, and it's definitely not them.

 

I agree. Definitely Yanks dressed as SS, as opposed to Brits dressed as SS. Maybe the threat to reenacting and our whole hobby has not threatened them as it has us. Or maybe a complete lack of taste and common sense. Actually a combination of all of these with a side order of stupidity to go with it.

I remember an article in a tabloid (the Sun i think it was) about 15 years ago where they claimed to have infiltrated an "extremist group of Nazis" (actually an SS living History group - maybe SBG). The article went on to say how they ran around the woods practicing assaults, weapons training and singing Nazi songs. Not much to worry us, but the paper dragged it out to two pages and tried to make it all scary. I think that this would have been the time of the Hungerford massacre. Anyway, wouldnt the same paper just love this?

So what can we do? To try and stop this threat to our hobby (which i feel it is) i have logged onto Youtube and flagged it up as being inappropriate. Hopefully they will take a look at it and take it off. It might help if other people did the same. If they got enough complaints about it maybe they would take it off. Do your bit now, then we can get back to more interesting things.

Tim (too)

"Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??"

Good point. But yes, i think so. My argument here is that i think it incredibly stupid to post these things where Joe public can see it. Executions went on, on both sides during the war. There is clear evidence of that. I am aware of French Canadians executing captured SS during the battle of Normandy in the most brutal way imagenable, which churns my stomach just to think about it.

I dont doubt that executions go on in private battle reenactments, but if the newspapers had photographs of it going on they would have a field day and make the whole hobby just a bit more difficult for all of us.

Not having done battle reinactment for years and years and years, i am reminded of a private battle where i was captured by a group of SS and German paratroopers. The SS insisted on shooting me, while the partroopers insisted that i was not. In fact it became quite a heated argument between them. Historically accurate? Quite probably so.

"Only one negative comment". Quite right. Strange i think. I must therfore almost stand alone in my opinions. I shall present myself as a united body of one.

Tim (too)

Come and see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5LImE5pAcc&mode=related&search=

Tim (too)

I have made my views clear on this in the past and must admit that some of the re enactors are not helping themseslves, their hobby or mine very much.

If you take a look at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5LImE5pAcc&mode=related&search=

you will see the chaps from Das Reich apparently executing allied prisoners and then posting it on to youtube for everyone to see. The actual execution seems to have been edited by the cameraman pointing away for a second. Before there were allied prisoners kneeling down with their hands behind their heads while an SS stands behind them with a gun pointing at their heads. The camera returns to see a line of corpses with SS soldiers pointing their guns at the corpses. The next shot shows the SS driving away in a half track. Ok, so films like "Come and see" show the SS killing people, i understand that. Re enactors do it occasionally (although hopefully not at public shows). But filming it and posting it on youtube is surely a step too far. The average person who sees this will tar us with the same brush and think that we are all insane. I found this just a bit too disturbing.

Thoughts anybody?

Tim (too)

I think that we should all club together and remake flags of our Fathers to show a bunch of British soldiers raising the Union Jack over Mt Surabachi in Iwo Jima. Maybe someone would take notice of that!

Tim (too)

I have been trying for over a week to log on by typing in HMVF.Co.UK and always get an error message. But today i tried logging in using it's address previously recorded in my favourites and got in no no problem. My query is therefore, have the number of users dropped dramatically, thinking like i did that the whole site had closed down because they had not been able to find the site?

Tim (too)

The tow hitch? why where else would I or can I hang it :?

 

Hmm. Have you read all of the posts on this subject? Would you claim to have "come out of the garage"? You do understand that your bucket will suffer unecessary ware and possibly even develop a hole?

It depends. From what do you hang your bucket?

I have been watching this topic from the start and whilst everybody is entitled to their opinions I find it rather distasteful when people voice their opinions on such an emotive subject when they quite obviously have little or no knowledge of the facts.

Please take a little time to do some research, whilst it may not change your opinions, you may come to realise why so many people feel so strongly about this matter.

 

Quite right.

Three of the people who are to be pardoned include:

Pte Stevenson who was convicted for desertion on 16 occasion.

Lt John Paterson who shot dead a military Policeman and was arrested three Months later while living with a prostitute in Calais.

Sub Lt Dyett who abandoned a group of badly wounded men in a shell hole well behind the lines, leaving them to freeze and bleed.

Although less than 1 in 10 who were sentenced to death actually received this sentence, a significant proportion were in my mind executed without due process being correctly followed, suffering from shell shock or there were other mitigating circumstances that should have been considered which would have resulted in a lighter sentence. Even so "When the law of the land as it stood at the time was followed, we can not reinvent the past".

I still feel that a blanket pardon is innapropriate and reduces the acts of valour of those who stood their ground and did not break. Any pardon should have been considered on a case by case basis, and stuff the cost. If it is to be done it should be done properly. I am a taxpayer and the Gvt can spend my money how they like and i dont really care. It will all be a drop in the ocean in comparisson to how much we spend in Iraq or even on the (chronically underfunded) National Health, which is in fact the second largest employer in the world.

Tim (too)

I guess that when they do all run out that someone will start making new ones, a bit like the new Weasel ones that i have seen.

Tim (too)