SimonBrown
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Posts posted by SimonBrown
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49 minutes ago, rewdco said:
Fantastic overview Simon, thanks for sharing!
Now just a thought... If all the Nortons are on the lower deck, and all the BSAs on the upper deck, wouldn't it be logical to assume that they were loaded at two different locations?
Possibly logical, yes.
But the logic of loading an upper deck first and then sailing to Aden to fill a lower deck area makes little maritime sense - the weight distribution would be just wrong.
Along with the WOT3 trucks there are two Leyland Retriever flatbeds, the Crossley Qs and a pile of aircraft spares between hold access and where the Nortons are found.
The space to load and manhandle them to the furthest and hardest corners of the hold makes little sense to me?. If it were just the Nortons loaded in Aden then the Crossly or Leyland flatbeds would have been far easier as stowage locations.
Its possible the Indian Nortons were planned to be offloaded in Aden? Then the plans changed and cargo destination changed as demands in North Africa dictated?
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There are (or were in 2017) a few saddles present on the upper deck BSA M20 motorbikes:
As ever, be sure to zoom in. Detail is 1mm per pixel.
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The mystery in this all is that the WD16H Nortons in the cargo are built according to the India Office specifications as can bee seen by the upturned rear end of the silencer.
That is new to me and thanks for sharing. Is there a copy of the specifications available anywhere?
QuoteThe way they were carried i.e. "uncrated" on the back of lorries does not seem the "normal" way to transport new motorcycles. There was no evidence of crating in the time that Cousteau visited it I seem to remember
All the motorbikes - BSA and Norton - are carried assembled and there has been no evidence they were loaded in crates. Cousteau's film 10 years after the sinking records no evidence of such.
QuoteNone of the Websites describing the Thistlegorm do mention any possibility of an intermediate stop in Aden but it is clearly in the card shown by Jan.
Our book (shameless plug...apologies... SS Thistlegorm guide) does mention a stop in Aden where she joined HMS Carlisle for convoy into the Red Sea. Other than coal bunkering perhaps we had not considered extra cargo being loaded.
From the Lloyds archive we know THISTLEGORM called in to Cape Town for repairs to the boilers and inspected/signed off by Lloyds rep. Unloading cargo is mentioned in interviews with former crew too.
QuoteI feel Rik's suggestion does have a fairly large chance of being correct.
I'm hesitant to agree at the moment but always keep an open mind.
There are masses of aircraft spares plus the Fordson WOT3 that the Nortons are loaded in Hold No2 and there are at least 4 Crossley Q lorries blocking the way. From here it makes no sense to leave a lower cargo deck empty either? It feels like everything was loaded in Glasgow...but without a manifest its difficult to confirm.
That aside, it is curious India Office spec motorcycles are present.
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14 hours ago, rewdco said:
Fantastic overview Simon! I've seen lots of Thistlegorm pictures, but non of these show the complete vessel. Thanks for sharing!
One question: Does anyone know what "S.T.A. 7" refers to?
The movement card says "Alloc[ated] to S.T.A 7 for carriage of MT & military stores to Mid. East"
So the nagging question is...what or whom is S.T.A. 7?
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12 hours ago, rewdco said:
Fantastic overview Simon! I've seen lots of Thistlegorm pictures, but non of these show the complete vessel. Thanks for sharing!
And thank you for sharing the movement card - not seen that before.
11 hours ago, 79x100 said:Thanks for posting that movement card, Jan...I've not seen it before...It pretty much suggests that the India Office Nortons on board had been embarked at Aden en route to Egypt with units of the Indian Army who were transferring there from the Aden Garrison during 1941.
The Nortons are found at the aft end of hold No2 on the lower deck. They are in perhaps the least accessible area of the ship and access is very tight.
I suppose its possible Hold No2 could have been loaded in Aden, but the physical challenge of manhandling 27~30 motorbikes into the least accessible area of the ship is, I think, exceptionally unlikely?
Do we know if there were other vehicles loaded in Aden?
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I thought it extremely unlikely I would ever contribute to this thread...but I realised I had some info that might be relevant.
The SS THISTLEGORM cargo contains 64 BSA M20 and 27 (possibly 30) Norton 16H motorcycles. They were loaded at Glasgow in June 1941 and the ship sunk in October of the same year.
I mapped the wreck in 3D in 2017 and returned last year for more survey work. If you look at the ortho mosaic of the lower deck cargo hold in the lower corner the 4th Norton from the lower left has its saddle in situ. Detail is good enough to count the springs:
You do have to zoom right in...its 1mm per pixel resolution.
I don't know if this adds to the debate...but its a preserved example of an as-shipped motorbike saddle.
Regrettably the saddle is now missing from the 2022 survey and the conclusion is theft.
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I found one in the Basingstoke Canal, along with 1000 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition, sometime around 1980.
So it will predate then. Sorry its not more precise but hope it helps.
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40 minutes ago, AmmoMan said:
A video just popped up today, likely to be a GPMG and it's working well clearing trenches.
Hmmm...check the rear crew door. Spartan rear hinges are vertical? Whereas the door in the video hinges horizontally?
Unless I'm missing something?
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13 minutes ago, Rootes75 said:
This is an interesting site:
Indeed it is! Thank you - much appreciated.
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Just now, Rootes75 said:
From my experience, the lorries I have are all metal steering wheels with a thick coating applied. Its quite evident when they have been chipped.
Do we know what the coating is made from?
Would a coated example survive 80 years of immersion in seawater?
Is it likely to corrode/turn to dust on exposure to air?
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The work to identify the cargo carried on the SS Thistlegorm is ongoing and following another visit in May (3D models coming soon) there is more material to work through.
Regrettably, the damage and removal of artefacts has continued and we have recorded more losses...
Which has triggered a question; What material would a 1940s era lorry steering wheel be made from?
I am guessing a kind of Bakelite plastic? But is that correct?
Any and all suggestions are most welcome.
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On 6/5/2022 at 9:50 AM, ferretfixer said:
These are useful in the Hallway, as an Umbrella / Walking Stick / Cane Holder.
I have a 120mm Cent Case to provide this facility in my Home. 😁
I have a 4.5in naval shell serving this exact same purpose.
Swords into ploughshares and all that...
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10 hours ago, Oh Five said:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205200266
Could they be this type of stove?
This one is a very close if not complete match. Many thanks Oh Five for finding that image...
A colleague is back in the Red Sea next week and will check to see if there are casting marks visible.
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34 minutes ago, skiprat said:
old cast iron boiler.
Thank you skiprat. That photo is a near-perfect match to what we have. I am confident enough to declare "mystery solved".
Do we know how the boilers would be used? For heating water...but for cooking food? Laundry? Washing?
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On 5/26/2022 at 5:42 PM, john1950 said:
Just another thought regarding the missing manifest. Has anyone done a search of the Guildhall Library London for any information of the cargo.
Well that was...a very strange coincidence. About the time you were writing that post I was in Hold No1 lower deck having an in-person close look at the mystery objects...
The suggestion of a stove (Thank you Philip) is the closest match to date. They are very, very heavy, ferrous and the photo is suggestive of their form.
If they are dunnies...they are bullet resistant and any tommy taking a break on that would have been confident knowing his backside was covered.
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All - this torpedo motor is still languishing in my shed.
Its free to anyone with a passing interest...drop me a PM...it really does need a new home.
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We are closing in on the location of this one:
18-6-45 KH694 Mustang Wing fell off,cr Portland Bay
Portland Bay does not - to my knowledge - exist but Portland Harbour does and witness statements have helped ID the likely area to search. Wing falling off was not primary cause of crash, and this was not the first aircraft of the type to suffer same loss of control. A flight limit notice triggered by first crash was not communicated to RCAF squadron from which KH694 was operating - the pilot simply didn't know.
A absolutely tragedy as its believed the flight was the last before returning home to marry a local girl.
Regrettably we have been unable to trace any living relatives of the pilot with both parents and only brother (childless) deceased.
Full story to be published soon I hope.
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24 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:
The attached link will explain more about its WW2 use.
Perfect - thanks Richard.
Another "tank in a bog" story....I wonder...
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Hazeley Heath, near Hartley Witney in Hampshire, is now a nature reserve. But in the past has been used for military testing/training.
There is a steep concrete incline, viewed from the top:
And there is a concrete structure at the top:
Its steep:
So the first question is - does anyone have any idea what it was used for?
Close by are a pile of discarded tracks. I think there are three types; two, large/heavy hornless and a narrower horned track.
I did a very quick 3D model of them:
So the second question for the collective knowledge of HMVF is "What tanks left these behind?"
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7 hours ago, sexton said:
(b) where are alignment shims? Under engine or transmission?
Shims go under the engine, if I remember correctly.
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If I recall...and its a long time ago...starter - electric or hydraulic - was definitely pack out.
Pack lift was with turret swung 90 degrees for deck and engine access.
Apart from that, can't remember anything special?
But it has been a very long time. Find an EMER!
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It is with a heavy heart I'm offering up to a good home the 8 cylinder torpedo engine that has featured in this thread:
Progress has stalled and the inescapable fact of starting a new business and seeing it grow (https://accupixel.co.uk) means my time is going to be focussed elsewhere for the foreseeable future.
So rather than languish in my garage the torpedo engine should be giving joy to someone else. I have all the parts it arrived with boxed or crated, a lot of photos...a 3D model (see Sketchfab model) serving as reference of how it arrived and will dig into the memory banks to assist as much as I can anyone taking it on.
Plus there are a few special tools that were made by the good hands of a gracious HMVF forum member - naturally these will be included.
Please PM me here.
It is a piece of historical engineering, a one-off and unique - certainly an experimental unit. It needs to be preserved, not languishing in my shed!
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The sender and gauge has departed for a new and more productive life - all sorted.
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Consider it done Doug - apologies for a slow reply as internet connection and time have both been somewhat limited, but now restored.
The Saddle Thread ( a rivet counter’s guide to the WD motorcycle saddles )
in Motorcycles
Posted
Its possible I guess. Reading the movement card was the ship in Aden for 2 days or for 7? Not sure what the abbreviations mean on the card. The records may reveal more.
Its low res and difficult to read. It's in a private collection and would be hesitant to draw conclusions from it at this stage.
I think they are steel. But not 100% certain.