10FM68

14 hours ago, ruxy said:

I have several different Clansman User Manuals , out of dozens I suppose they were semi purchased blind.

Note  ,  QUOTE  -  User handbook for Clansman radio installations in Trucks,1/2 and 3/4 ton,FFR snd GS Rover

You take a port/Starboard Dexion kit  ,  Series 3 or slightly different Defender kit does it , best avoid ancient S2A kits as differing parts. 

You know when a LWT has been fitted as the brackets are each bolted  4 bolts to the upper body side (these anchor the bottom of the diagonal stays.  These brackets to properly fit to a LWT - you reverse them  convenient.  Most often at demob these brackets are left in situ.  but if you see 4 qty. holes you know has been fitted.

Now notice Trucks &  1/2  , at one time I was of the opinion this indicated a 88"  CL  ,  however the conversion to "FFR"  (12 volt)  was not uncommon.

See also the MJC book  -  page 186   EMER  Q  027   Mod Nos  62 + 65     (June 78 (No.2)  ,   my position - as I don't know any more  =   'sit-on-fence'  ,  it seems there is good official documentary evidence .     Many show vehicles have private owner DIY install - often a total shambles , it has a Manpack cradle bolted on  (IIRC - I have 3 or 4 types).  In service - I suppose they could mout the extra battery /  charger unit , so I suppose for any passenger/driver who needed a neat instalation (ISTR it does qualify for a wing-top TUAAM) 4 section antenna with penant ,,

https://www.greenmachinesurplus.com/user-handbook-for-clansman-into-land-roverprc320prc3512vrc353z61590pt10supp-28-3778-p.asp

I don't think anyone is denying that there was an official modification.  The question is why and for whom.

5 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Of course the HAC was a bit different from the 7th Para Royal Horse Artillery,  with 25 pdrs instead of the 105mm Light Gun,and I bet they never went off road in the very shiny Lwts.

I'm not entirely sure it is fair to compare the HAC and 7 Para RHA by referencing the former's ceremonial gun troop.  The war role of the HAC was every bit as demanding as any regular army RA unit and, certainly, their vehicles would have gone off road!

On a less frivolous note, I have never quite understood the need for manpack fitments in Land Rovers and never came across  them during my service.  That is not to say they weren't used, but I just don't know why.  Every unit has a scale of issue of kit - its 'establishment'.  There is a Peace Establishment (PE) and a War establishment (WE) and these would allocate and authorise an entitlement to equipment based on the role and expected employment of the unit.  To that end, it would be worked out what communications were needed by that unit and radios and supporting equipment, including FFR vehicles, authorised for issue accordingly.  In consequence all the units I served in had FFR Rovers for all unit appointments who needed to be on the unit net and/or those of higher and subordinate commands.  The only reason I can think for employing a GS 12V Land Rover in a communications role is an officially recognised shortage of the proper 24V FFR Land Rovers such that a unit was significantly handicapped to the point that a replacement substitute was designed and issued, suggesting that it was an enduring problem rather than a temporary one.  I never heard of there being a shortage of 24V Land Rovers, but, then, there was no reason why I should have done unless I had been personally affected.  Perhaps someone else on here can shed some light.

Regrettably, that doesn't help identify for you a potential user, I'm afraid.

Wow!  They're excellent, thanks, Kevin  Big beasts aren't they?  And that must be one half of the 240mm gun - like some sort of siege engine!  I am busy digging out pictures of the less usual vehicles in British service at the moment, just another little research cul de sac which I am following - or bee in the bonnet if you prefer.  I have just come across some pictures of FWD HAR1s for example - a type I knew little of - apart from a brief mention in Bart Vanderveen's book - apparently they were used by RPC smoke generating units and, sure enough, I found a photo of one with such a smoke generator.  The other great gap in photo availability seems to be vehicles in use by British forces in Burma and the Far East - where there was a preponderance of US vehicles such as the Dodge WCs which were rather less common in British markings closer to home.  Which reminds me of a fascinating series of photos I came across of Dodge Power Wagons with post-war British ERMs - in service with the Trucial Oman Scouts, I think they were.  All good stuff, but a bit off-topic from the M6s - sorry!

On 9/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, KevinT said:

It would be nice to see one of these with a British census number. I know to 10 used by 61st Super Heavy Regiment RA. H5849538, H5849539, H5849543, H5849549, H5849551, H5849561, H5849562, H5849565, H5849822 and H5849823. There are 3 others that I have come across which must be from a Super Heavy Regiment but do not know which one. H6164822, H6164823 and H6164827. Hope it is of some interest to someone.

Cheers

 

I would be pleased to see some photos of one in British service - that alone is pretty rare.  Even the illustration of an M6 in the R E Smith book, British Army Vehicles and Equipment Vol 2 Artillery of 1964 is of a model - not even of the real thing!  There was that set of very fascinating photos taken in the early 50s at Woolwich with CMP Oerlikon LAA guns, a couple of Dorchesters etc where one or two appear, but, otherwise, very little.  Interestingly, that seems to be true of medium & heavy artillery tractors in general - not many photos about at all.

That really does look a lot better in green!  Lovely looking vehicle as well - sad that they really weren't as successful as intended, but the RASC's loss seems to have been the RE's gain!

2 hours ago, B series said:

What a great looking truck, so nice to see a 1950's vehicle in DBG without being over restored with tow ropes, buckets and red two hooks etc. Original Q4 tippers must be so rare because most were worked to death after demob. This vehicle is a credit to its owner.

I do so agree with you.  It is a shame that there is relatively little interest in this period when, in fact, these vehicles are relatively rare and interesting.  After all, the vast majority of British ex-military vehicles from the 40s and 50s had a very hard life after demod, were cut about to fit breakdown cranes, etc, etc and simply didn't survive.  Which is why it always pains me to see ex-British military jeeps, Diamond Ts, Macks and others losing their identity to join the ranks of the US Army when, in fact, retaining their original markings (or, better in many ways, the markings they ended their careers in) would make them so much more interesting and be a lasting tribute to their original users, whether during the war or afterwards.  But... that is not the way the wind is blowing in the hobby, at least at the moment - perhaps a future generation of restorers will have a greater interest in historical accuracy and will return some of them to the colours and markings they actually wore. 

Many thanks for that, Pete.  It is interesting to see just how frequently there were new orders issued about colour schemes.  One might have expected that, with a war on, things might have remained stable for rather longer than they did - notwithstanding the need to find alternatives to the scarce chromium in green paint and its priority for the RAF.  I still find it remarkable, though, that we lost track of these colour schemes so quickly.  It may be 80 years ago now, but it wasn't when, for example, Humbrol were developing paints for the modeller and, somehow, it never seemed to cross their minds that accurate tints might be appreciated.  They settled for 'khaki' 'dark earth' and 'dark green' and that had to do for decades thereafter.  even today I cannot find a modelling paint which is remotely like the right shade for battledress, which is bizarre really.

As for your choice of markings, an  infantry division REME field workshop sounds good - it also gives you the chance to 'be a bit different' as REME vehicles often had (and have) something a bit extra!  I like this picture of a Humber Snipe.  It looks to be a bit of a hot-rod!  The markings suggest it probably belonged to CREME of 7 Armoured Division!

Have you decided yet what markings it will have when it's finished?  Which leads me to the question, 'what colour were Canadian-built vehicles in WWII painted?'  Were they US Olive Drab, British SCC15 or one of its predecessors or did the Canadians use a colour of their own?  I'm thinking about vehicles they supplied to the British and to their divisions, originally in UK, then fighting at Dieppe, in Italy and in NWE.

Quite funny actually, as I too was on a rant and had to edit what I had originally written rather extensively!  I certainly agree about the army sergeant major!

But, thank you for the date of 1959 for the earlier 6x6 AEC ACVs - I hadn't got that, though I do have those photos you have posted.  I understand, though, that the 6x6s had less headroom than the Dorchesters which were so named because they were thought as roomy as rooms at the Dorchester Hotel!  Whether that is true or not, I don't know.  Apparently, Dorchesters were also used as RE demolitions vehicles and I wonder whether this is one given its AOS marking on a plain background suggesting it belongs to a Sapper field park company (see below photo of 6 Armd Div and 42 AOS marking).  There are one or two others floating around on the internet.  I don't know who to credit for these pictures but the Canadian pair (with the Dorchester in the background, probably came from Maple Leaf Up.  As I said, I am very interested in the 1950s and what WWII vehicles were still in service then so I collect as many photos as I can of that period.  Sadly, there is a dearth of photos taken in the Far East which might have some interesting Dodge WC series in British service in them as well.  But now I am wandering off thread!  I wonder whether the '1026' number on the mudguard of the Canadian one is the unit identity number which, if I had a list, which, sadly I don't, might enable me to see where it came from.

RAL numbers are a German standard, widely used, admittedly, but not officially in this country where we use British Standard paints.  It will be among that set you will need to look.  I assume it is a standard dark navy blue you have in mind.  There may then be white 'Royal Navy' markings on each rear tub side and, perhaps a stencilled ship's name on the cab doors, but, otherwise, there is little of note, I would suggest.  Perhaps more interesting, while retaining the RN theme, would be to go for a Land Rover from a warship which would have been used as the Captains -on-shore duty vehicle.  This might then have more 'bull' including a varnished wooden shield on the radiator grille with the ship's crest on it, a white spare tyre cover on the bonnet and other such 'embellishments'.

9 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

 

I think 'fiddling with the law' is the start of a discreet campaign by the government to get us off the road. 

I think there is a hope that, before long, none of us will be actually driving our own vehicles - they want the proletariat to use public transport or a bicycle!  It's already started in Wales where the new 20mph speed limits being introduced next month across the principality is certainly claimed to be to encourage more people out of cars and to walk or cycle more!  My village gets three lanes subject to the new restriction - clearly selected from a map, not from a view of the ground - one of them is a cul de sac of a few hundred yards up a very steep and narrow hill where the only thing which could possibly achieve 20mph would be a pushbike coming down!  Certainly there'll be no risk of cars breaking that limit!

Again, many thanks for that interesting recollection.  I had quite forgotten about the 'diamonds'!  It sometimes seems we lost so much that had been built on the hard experience of WWII, not least the G, A & Q branches, which, I must admit, to a young soldier were a bit confusing!  Quite who, or what a DAA&QMG was, was a complete mystery!  I did like the obvious titles, though like BOWO, CRA, CREME and so on.  Things are even worse now, with the army's adoption of US-inspired jargon - just a glance at the Army website nowadays, is utterly baffling with everyone seemingly running around 'delivering capability' all over the place.  And quite why brigades have to be brigade combat teams, I have no idea - surely a brigade is, by its very nature a combat team - if it isn't, it isn't doing its job! But, thanks again for those pictures - the first I have ever seen of the ACVs actually in use - otherwise, I think, I've only seen the FVRDE photo of the prototype.

https://robvanmeel.nl/product/austin-k5-3-ton-portee-g-s-drivers-handbook-59-p/

For just under 8 Euros try Rob Van Meel in Holland.  He has a number of useful WW2 publications to do with British & Commonwealth (& other) vehicles.

Thank you for that Fleet103, that is really interesting and I am very pleased to have learned it.  I have never understood why the British Army were so keen to abandon large, wheeled ACVs after all their experiences in WW2.  The danger from shelling and air attack had we gone to war with the Soviets would have been every bit as heavy and effective as that  we experienced in NW Europe after D Day, but without the guarantee of air superiority.  I spent quite a bit of time in various HQ in the field in Germany, mostly working from a canvas 12x12 or from the back of an entirely inadequate FV432 with no room to work, think or do anything else.  And, of course, if there had been a chemical attack all the canvas would have been burned anyway.  The argument was, I understand that, in war, we would have taken over buildings and so not needed to work from vehicles or tents at all.  Still, large purpose-built ACVs would have had their place I am sure.  I would be interested to know when the last of the wartime 6x6 ACVs and the 4x4 Dorchesters were withdrawn from use.  Certainly the former were still about in the 50s though I don't know how long the Dorchesters lasted.  Anyway, once again, many thanks for your contribution - fascinating.

2 hours ago, kdgipsy said:

Just an update turns out the bracket I pictured initially is an origanal it's also bent. Conveniently it's bent in a perfect 90deg so thrown every one out. 

This is the extinguisher I need but it appears to be fitted upside down is that common? 

The top is as marked on the top of the bracket as shown in your photo.  That is how they all should be fitted - with the bottle above the nozzle.

Certainly the signals liaison vehicles which the British SIGINT service used to feed Ultra to senior US commanders used converted Dodge ambulances as cipher & comms vehicles.  In British HQ they apparently used the Guy 15cwt, but needed something which blended in better at US ones.  Not, though, that a Guy 15Cwt would have been that common at a British HQ I would have thought!  There is quite a lot of info about the Dodges in Geoffrey Pidgeon's "The Secret Wireless War", including some photos.  I'm sure the Dodge was used for many other purposes than ambulances merely because it was an extremely convenient sort of vehicle for a variety of uses.

1 hour ago, Chris Suslowicz said:

There was also a WS31 AFV version, and the Canadians used the PRC510 (Improved PRC10) as an infantry communication "C Set" in AFVs.

And thank you for that as well.  The trouble is, there is so much to know, and a hell of a lot to remember.  I had forgotten I had written this post!  My major interest is in the British Army of the 50s with WWII coming in a close second, and I find it interesting to dig a little deeper.  Funnily enough, generally there is a lot of information out there - Holland is a very good source for info on British matters and I am forever finding new internet sources of material.  My next quest is for a list of the unit identification numbers from WWII British vehicles - it will be a very long list indeed!

21 hours ago, ruxy said:

I doubt if there was any colour Q.C.  within the UK during this period .  

I am sorry to hear about your poor experience with silicates - as BC312 says, there are more companies out there selling pint than there are companies out there who really understand it. 

But, coming back to the point you make about quality control.  I think certainly the WD were very concerned about QC and made considerable effort to 'get it right.'   'Paint PFU' would have had to meet very stringent standards just as was the case in the USA.  A lot of work was done with industry and research bodies, both to gain consistency and also maintain quality while under pressure to remove from the colour requirement constituents which were in short supply - chrome I think was such an example, making green tricky to produce in quantity. For some reason green was seen as very necessary for aircraft painting hence the army being left with brown! 

 I think the evidence for that is the sheer quantity of detailed directives and instructions for the use of camouflage paint - often with changes being made mere months after the last - implementing those changes at unit level, particularly when instructions also included caveats such as 'use up old stocks of paint first' must have been really frustrating.  Nowadays, it seems that the Army doesn't give a monkey's what their vehicles look like; cost-saving and no longer allowing untrained soldiers to paint vehicles, use spray equipment etc has resulted in an appallingly tatty fleet which certainly wouldn't have been allowed even 30 years ago and probably does nothing for soldiers' general interest in looking after the stuff.  We seemed to be repainting vehicles after every blinking exercise!

But, back in the war when discipline was considerably more rigorous, maintaining standards of turnout, frequency of inspection, emphasis on cleanliness and lower standards of H&S, I am sure that, whenever possible, great efforts to keep unit vehicles at a high standard of turnout was very much seen as evidence of a Commanding Officer's 'grip' on his unit.  The problem would have come, perhaps, with paints which were mixed at unit level.  Unless there was very close supervision, clear guidance and a sample to try to match, keeping up appearances would have been much more problematic and getting a match between different batches mixed would be challenging.  Serious efforts were made to maintain high standards during the war, even on operations once 'out of the line'.  The trouble is, it is difficult to find colour photographs which you can really trust, not something which is being made easier with the 'colorization' process so fashionable at the moment, particularly as much of it is wildly inaccurate!  

I used a Richards chassis for my rebuild of a Lightweight.  i am certainly not an expert mechanic (or anything else for that matter) but I found it was a perfect match for the old one, was well galvanised, delivered within a very short time and served as a perfect foundation for everything to be bolted back on.  They company were easy to deal with, straightforward and pleasant.  The thing is, the vast majority of us only ever buy one, so we have no ability to make comparisons.  My experience was absolutely fine and I'm sure yours would be too.

On 7/14/2023 at 2:33 PM, fv1609 said:

You are not wrong at all. There was no OD paint listed as a "vehicle paint" in VAOS/COSA Section H1(a) Paints dopes & varnishes, this is further confirmed by EMER WORKSHOPS N 251. Extracts below show that there were a range of specific OD paints for particular purposes including war equipment, steel helmets, jerricans & storage boxes. There is no entry for OD under vehicle paints.

Thank you for that, Clive,  it's certainly complicated!  Nice to see the correct spelling of jerrican illustrated there as well!  Thinking of steel helmets - well, they were a G1098 item rather than personal issue so you moved between units with just your own liner and drew a new helmet on arrival.  So you got to see quite a number of them in the QM's store.  Sometimes they had been crudely repainted - even in bronze green - and they looked really awful - I always ensured I got a decent one in drab!  Not that it really mattered of course because as soon as you got it back to your room it was out with the hessian, boot polish, scrim net (issued separately) and that would be the last you'd see of the paint until you came to hand it in at the end of your posting!  I was lucky in that I didn't have to wear a tortoise (MkIV) for long.  I was posted to a unit which had been armoured so drew a tank helmet which was a much nicer thing to have altogether, so I contrived to keep it thereafter and, in fact, it stayed with me till the end and finally went on eBay last year!  Hope that you enjoyed Builth - I've not been able to drive since April so am having a bit of a quite time (apart from a couple of dramatic 999 calls and two periods in hospital).  Still don't know what the future holds - we'll have to see!

2 hours ago, ruxy said:

WW2   A.R.P.   Colour Chart  !

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/bygones/10885640.walpamurs-ingenious-paints-helped-win-two-wars/

MOD new equipment contractors today - at Contract stage / pre-manufacturing meeting would be given - specifications of paints to be used  &  approved list of paint manufacturers (probably 5/6 listed ,  Trimite  & W.J. Leigh + other top firms).  Dry/Wet film thickness ,  Preparations such as blasting to SIS  , probably white metal,  conditions for application - such as humidity.   Colour coat - as a  BS381C  ,  I doubt if there would be mention of any NSN - that would be for when introduced to service.

What a fascinating find, Tony!  I well remember dark green tins of Walpamur from my childhood.  This ARP chart, though, shows paint for buildings rather than vehicles, but they do illustrate the absence of BS numbers nicely.  And, of course, we're much too early for NSNs - I don't know what year they were introduced but, certainly, not before the formation of NATO, of course.

14 hours ago, BC312 said:

All UK government paints for GPO Army Navy and Airforce all came under the BS381C paint code system which started during the early 1930s, so if you wanted to paint something in Nato green you would use BS381C 285 Nato green etc. Of course the chart has changed colours over the years and has amended and deleted some colours now not used. These colours also include ordnance as well. If something was made or manufactured at a factory the paint spec was also specified in BS381C colour, what happens after the made item leaves the factory is a matter of what is available in the camps and institutions they end up. Remember a lot of the interior of most houses before and after the war were drab browns and greens,. A spare tin of household paint on camp to enhance the camouflage of a WW2 vehicle could be knocked up to resemble paint not in stores, may not be a perfect match but near on, as long as it matched the spec of the camouflage manual. 

Oh that it was that simple!  Sadly, this wasn't the case for WWII paint.  Most of the standard camouflage colours didn't have BS numbers.  They were 'described' instead - with vague terms such as 'tea with milk', 'which can mean all sorts - Army tea with milk can be distinctly orange while that consumed by Grandma has an altogether lighter hue!  And, of course, NATO green is a relatively new colour on the BS 285 list (perhaps not yet 50 years old) and every NATO country has its own interpretation of what a NATO green is!  And, it has to be said, even the professionals struggle to match batches of the same paint as I discovered to my cost when respraying my Land Rover!  The picture below shows a 'NATO Green' from the same producer but from batches perhaps six months apart!

On 7/14/2023 at 11:54 AM, ruxy said:

'bits and pieces'   - the problem with that theory is that I doubt if the army would issue  , 5L  of  Drab  SPRAYING  for  Jerry cans, pickaxe helves , etc. etc.    Often the same product is sold to different markets - such as trade & DIY in different can packaging    (very recently I have come across  Everbuild ,  triple action clear wood preserver , in 5 L low £ cost  & £ printed , the same stuff sold as Lumberjack triple action preserver in a mor expensive £ & attractive appearance can.   With Drab - often due to age & owners rubbing in oil - it's a case of does it matter & who knows the truth ?    This Walpamur Drab could have come from a MOD Misc. auction (I purchased gallons there - Catterick ,but had to go to a hotel at Tadcaster to bid) .  More than probably it came from one of several contractors to the MOD somewhere on Tyneside  - Vickers @ Scotswood  to a small unit near Blaydon/Stella rail crossing - who manufactured a few things inc. Mule panniers  - for over 1200 years to the bitter end @ Hong Kong.  The can was given to me abt. 1982  by the owner of Albany Motors (MOD recovery contractor/garage service)  Gateshead,  all he had used was sufficient to smarten his wheels on his MUTT  (I think at that stage the body  was still in livery of Israel Army). He was a leading light in the N.E. Military vehicle group and this Drab (and others) were being applied to WW2 & later MV's  - American , British and the odd other inc. ISTR two French (Ex-Falklands Argentive).    M.V.   Drab  - it's all a complex subject - they fade , not all at the rate of  NATO  IRR , and visitors to shows - hardly any would know or take an interest.

Gosh Tony!  Where to start!  What a fascinating tale of the purchase of a tin of paint!  You clearly have an impressive memory.  But, you are quite right in that the MoD (or, more accurately the WD as we're talking about the late 40s and 50s rather than post-64) wouldn't issue paint for pickaxe helves as they were not supposed to be painted - they were supposed to have been oiled, but there were many exceptions in service - and even more in preservation - but they did issue paint for other bits and pieces as I have said - Clive mentions a prime example: helmets.  Others include those handy 1-gallon oil cans which turn up on eBay from time to time to this day.  Radios, of course, and lots of other stuff.  So I am happy with that piece of advice. 

I'm not sure I follow quite which can you are referring to when you say you were given it in 1982 - presumably this isn't the one you bought from Catterick, via the hotel in Tadcaster - home of John Smiths, I believe!  But, sadly, the 'leading light in the NE MVG' isn't accurate in applying OD paint willy nilly to any MV from the US, the UK or Israel - there were significant differences and, in my opinion, it is worth taking the time to sort it out properly.  Though, certainly, many people attending shows wouldn't know the difference either and, as you have cautioned me before, one can be too much of a rivet counter!  But, when it comes to British military kit  it is nice to get things right or thereabouts.

I may be wrong, but I think paint, war equipment wasn't a vehicle paint.  It was the paint approved for 'bits and pieces' such as jerricans, cookers, AEH pins, etc, etc.  The SCC15 British olive drab officially finished in the late 1940s, but lingered on well after that, particularly with older vehicles with low useage which didn't, therefore, require repainting.  So, for many years it will have appeared alongside DBG.  It isn't, though, the same OD as then appeared in the 60s replacing DBG, that was a new colour.

I can't acknowledge copyright of these as I don't know it, but you can see clearly in this photo from a TA unit (Westminster Dragoons) in the 1950s that they were running SCC15 alongside DBG - the rear  DAC - (though, note, they have given it a semi-gloss finish, not untypical of peacetime soldiering), while the photo of the Centurion in the background of the VW photo shows it to be painted a lighter shade than the middle bronze green of the VW, again suggesting that it is in SCC15.

If you look carefully at front-end photos of other 1950s vehicles, such as the Humber 1 Ton, you will sometimes see this marking.  Preventing freezing of coolant remained an issue much later  - it may still, I'm sure the ex-military guys on here who served, for example, in Germany where winters could get much colder, the pot of anti-freeze on the guardroom windowsill.  If it started to freeze out of working hours, then drivers could be called out to start engines.