10FM68

1 hour ago, ruxy said:

The mentioned ERM Contract(s)  -  do you know of their  DIS  years  ?

The DIS dates will be subsequent to the contract dates.  Sometimes one will follow the other quite quickly, particularly if of a large batch from a major manufacturer.  Sometimes there can be lengthy separation - an example, I think, is the --BM-- registrations for Leyland Martian recovery vehicles which, according to their ERMs would have entered service soon after 1952/53, but, actually appeared in service in 1961/62.  Some 1 Tonne Land Rovers on FL were similarly late appearing as well, I think, but to what extent I can't remember.  Some had been held on temporary --CC-- registrations (--CC-- originally being 1958/59 A vehicles), but, in their case they were registered as 'chassis cabs' in the 70s.  For the --CL-- Bedfords and Millies, there is little to suggest there was any undue delay, so a year or two at the most, probably.  My --HF-- Land Rover was DIS in 79 off a contract date of 78/79 - so fairly typical of most, I expect.  --GS-- were A vehicles, --GT-- B and --GU-- and --GV-- C vehicles - there are plenty of photos of all of the B & C vehicles fro those contract dates around - I haven't looked for A vehicles with --GS-- as that isn't a particular area of interest of mine..

2 hours ago, wally dugan said:

On the question of the ERM  CL only two contracts were issued  to land rovers  6/v/27756 For car utility light 4x2 and KL/H 0100 GS cargo 4x4

Yes, there is no connection between the ERM --CL-- and 'Commercial' - I have photos of both Bedford RL and Millie Mk1 s with CL plates - it was, I understand, merely the ERM for contract year 58/59.  Equally ERM --CT-- wasn't used for 'Combat' (or at all in fact) and 'GS' was contract year 77/78

--DC-- is the ERM for 60/61.  As discussed on another thread, there were also the fourteen M113s from Israel used in Afghanistan with the Exactor missile system  but that was very much later - their ERMs were KM which were miscellaneous vehicles so difficult to age. --FE-- would be 1971/72.  T

he attached photo of 00DC51 - also from a previous thread, suggests that it was taken in a 'museum environment' of some sort, so probably at RMCS after its time with FVRDE and the turret is no longer there.

Here's the M113 with a Scorpion turret.  If I remember rightly, this subject cropped up on here a few months back.  Soth is photo may well have been provided by another member.  

I've just had a look at the Profile Publications No 53 dated Jan 73.  The photos there show the derelict FV421 at Lulworth - so it was already derelict by then.  Some of the other photos Wally posted above are also there.  An early FV434 (W5) is shown as 06EB00. FV434 (P2) is shown with civilian VRM 521FUW.  Clearly, 06EB01 was given to at least two different vehicles the FV431 above and the FV437 in Thailand - which seems odd, but suggests that the 06EB-- batch was FV430 generally for prototypes.  Unfortunately, there is little information in the Profile about FV437, merely saying that it had a capstan winch which paid out forwards and hydro-jet propulsion.

And the M113 1/2 is registered 50BT05 in Aug - Oct 1966 so, presumably, was with FVRDE long enough to be registered and under trials 2 years later than the Horsea Island tests of June 64.

What a fascinating film - interesting to see the FV421 being put through its paces as well as a Saladin, Ferret Mk4 etc.  Not much freeboard left on the snorkel/conning tower of the wading Centurion, though!  Interestingly, whereas in the film of the Thailand trials the FV432 always bogged left-wing-down, they floated pretty level.  I wonder why the RTR officer was armed - the others didn't appear to be - seems odd for a trial such as this - on the R Weser in Germany, I presume.  (I was watching with the sound off so it may actually have answered that last point!)

Sorry, this thread isn't about the Oxford Carrier per se, it is about the uniforms of the crew so I have retitled it.

Could the Australians have used them in Korea?  And, if so, were the Australians still in SD by then or had they adopted BD?

Thanks both, but the mystery of their uniforms (and turnout, come to that), remains unsolved.  Very odd.

Thank you for that tip - it worked for me to good effect cleaning up a photo I had.  Now we need a way of restoring all the old images which have disappeared from the forum as a result of the introduction of charges by photobucket and the passage of time.  (Wish)!

Browsing through old threads I came across this photo originally posted by rnixartillery of the crew of an Oxford 6 Pdr [PR in photo] ATG.  I was wondering, though, what are they wearing?  Are they actually British or could they be, for example, Australian?  Presumably it is a post-war photo, but they seem to be wearing pre-war service dress or something similar with collar dogs and, possibly, brass buttons, carrying SMLE No1 rifles and wearing Mk2 helmets, though the chap on the right seems to have a Sten machine carbine.  There is also a 22 mortar and a Bren by the look of it..  Any ideas?

14 hours ago, Oh Five said:

The Karrier Bantam would most likely have been "plugged into the aerodrome" for power and communications.  If something had happened to the vehicle mechanicals then it could have been towed into position.  As well as power for radios, hazard and signal lights it would be connected by phone to the controller in the Visual Control Room (the glass room on top of the controller tower) as well as, most likely, the fire station.  

The runway control caravans are used as a final visual check for departing aircraft and aircraft on final approach.

With the small numbers built with specialist bodywork and equipment perhaps it was kept as a trailer but why the ERM would have been changed I do not know.

Dan

Thank you for that, Dan.  That would make sense and may well explain, in conjunction with Wally's offering above, why the vehicle had a TM ERM, though, like you, I am surprised that the change was made.  I assume it was in use at an Army aerodrome given the army ERM, but... one never knows.

4 hours ago, wally dugan said:

May be it was the equipment that was in it and it could not be moved under its own power

That's possible, I suppose as the vehicle in question was probably pretty static on the airfield though would need some sort of engine to power the office in the back even if unable to move itself.

22 minutes ago, sirhc said:

MS is Military Sales number. 

Thanks for that SIRHC.  I was confident about it meaning Military Sales, but I hadn't come across systematic re-numbering of auction lots before.  Do you know, whether this re-numbering applied to all disposals, or just those from BAOR being brought back to UK for sale and do you know, was it in use for a limited time only in this regard or for a protracted period?  I have seen MS applied to new vehicles being sold abroad direct from manufacture/reserve stocks but, as I say, not for general disposals.

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

 AS to TM REGISTRATION number these were allocated to trailer machinery

I knew that, so that is why I was surprised to see it on a Karrier Bantam.  

2 hours ago, fv1609 said:

The MS series was used for "Vehicle numbers issued for overseas customers"

I have always understood that MS indicated Ministry Sales.

Equally, I always thought it was 'military sales', but both are possible, I suppose.  But, as we have found with 'SA' you can't trust all you read - I also saw a photo of an old Karrier Bantam airfield control van with a 'TM' ERM which seems odd and out of sequence.  So there were a lot more exceptions to the rule than perhaps we are aware of.

In the photo of the line-up of Stalwarts, I see that they have painted on 'MS' ERMs suggesting that they were military sales ones, though they look pretty standard to me as do the paint schemes.

1 hour ago, REME 245 said:

The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry examples had their Regimental Crests applied in the same positions as these in the form of colour decals.  These look very similar to the RWY Crest but obviously if you were there at the time and examined the vehicles closely you must be correct.   I would not have imagined that a regular Regiment would wanted these vehicles with their inherent stability problems due to their raised height.  There must have been hundreds of the others marks in storage at  the time.

 

 

Well, I'd sooner trust your evidence than mine given how long ago it was.  Certainly 15/19H were there at that time because I was given a ride in one of their Centurions and allowed to fire the turret Browning!  But, it looks to me as though those Ferrets certainly don't have the 15/19H badge on the turret - they look much closer to the RWY.

I think some were retained by the regulars as well.  I'm pretty sure this example, which I photographed at Westdown Camp, Tilshead SPTA, in about 69/70, belonged to 15/19KRH.

No, no, the thanks are all mine, for reading what I wrote and thanking me for it!

https://maps.nls.uk/

A friend has just passed me this link which I am now passing on to you!  It is the map library of the National Library of Scotland.  It provides access to a vast range of maps, including some British military ones of Belgium from 1944, barrcks in Scotland, defensive sites in Scotland, the OS maps of the UK and lots more.  I think some of you may find it of interest.  Well, I hope so.

Not everyone does gratitude, Clive!

Well, if it is highly likely that it served in the same unit as a Defender for at least, say, a year or 18 months, then it is entirely reasonable to accept that it may have received Defender wing mirrors.  I don't think you'd lose an argument with the most persistent of rivet-counter - just tell him yours belonged to the CO of the regiment who always demanded the very best and the very latest!  (Or the OC of the REME LAD - their vehicles were usually pretty well-furnished as well!) 

Same with rubies (the screw-in lenses), some believe you can only fit the early, small glass ones to early Land Rovers and the 'bug-eyes' only to later ones.  Well, they were regularly mixed up in service - I've even seen Land Rovers sporting the larger Bedford-style ones.  As I said, the rule of thumb is, if your vehicle was in service when whatever it is you want (or have to) add was also in service, you'll probably be OK.  You're more likely to be historically correct thn someone sporting a siren on their jeep and there are plenty of those out there! 

Soldiers weren't fussed with form - only function.  And, I'm willing to bet, few are the soldiers who ever knew there was a difference between bug-eye indicators lenses for the front and for the rear!  I certainly didn't!

6 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Regarding wing mirrors fitted to British Army Lightweight Land Rovers, I have been told they were originally designed and built with wing mirrors, but these were replaced the production line with adjustable door mounted mirrors (on bars attached to the upper door hinge). I guess this was done at a time when the Series IIA was replaced by the Series III though strangely my 1980 GS still has the holes for wing mounted mirrors. I have been told that these wing mounted mirrors vibrated when the Lwts were in use, and consequently the mirrors were mounted on the door hinge - but that didn't cure the problem.

Consequently some Lwts like mine had their wing mirrors replaced in service with those identical to those on Land Rover Defenders, but I guess this was not official. Is Defender mirrors on a Lwt more of a 'thing' in preservation due to the non availability of spares, or something from their use in the British Army as a modification?

In service wing mirrors were very vulnerable to exercise damage so it is not unusual to find early vehicles fitted with later pattern heads - though less common to find the arms having been replaced as well.  Of my in-service photos, the earliest Defender-type appears on a KB, but you can be quite sure that they would have been fitted to earlier vehicles on occasion provided that vehicle was in service after the Defender-type became available to demand from stores. 

I suppose the rule of thumb is deciding exactly what year you are trying to replicate and use only a mirror, or mirror arm which was available then or earlier. 

Interestingly, the prototypes had the mirrors on the doors.  Production models then had them on the wings before they returned to the doors, as Tony says, with contracts from 78/79.  Of the wing-mounted arms, my photo collection suggests that circular heads were more common than rectangular, that some Lightweights had standard arms fitted in place of long ones, some had one of each, one or two a bespoke arrangement and even some in-service Rover 1s had mirrors returned to the doors!  A lot was down to what the REME LAD  or what FAMTO stores had available.

An example of in-service updating to Defender-style mirrors is the HAC Ceremonial Gun detachment - it looks as though all their Lightweights were fitted with them.