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10 FM 68

 

Thanks for engaging and answering, that is very useful to the gent whose vehicle it is and to the rest of us who need to be educated

You're welcome.

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A Ferret bearing the call sign T 29 C in the 1970s would be what role? Directing staff or player?

But, if anyone bothers to answer my question, please don't expect acknowledgement!

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A Ferret bearing the call sign T 29 C in the 1970s would be what role? Directing staff or player?

It would be a player. You'd better look after that one and keep it tidy - looks like you've got the Squadron Sarn't Major's Ferret from B Squadron of an armoured regiment! "Tango" is armour, "2" is the second sub-unit (usually B Squadron for armour) "9" is commander so "T29" would be the squadron leader when using his alternative vehicle (FFR Land Rover or Ferret) while "29A" the 2ic, "2C" the SSM and "29D" the SQMS. I think "29B" would be reserved for a liaison officer, but I'm not sure. The OC would also have a tank which would be "2A" and the 2ic's tank "2B".

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Sorry, don't see taxi there, see straightforward, no-nonsense military capability.

For me they're the legitimate heirs to the wonderful allied command cars of WWII - the Fords, Chevrolets, Humbers and so on.

Having owned Volvos since 1982 I have always favoured their function over form approach and the Sugga is the epitome of that. If I could I'd have it in a jiffy.

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Denmark in the fifties before we had sufficient Diamond T980's

Certainly the Pioneer isn't in British service, so Danish makes sense, but the Centurion seems to be registered in the British Army BA series with its number plate on the side of the turret which was usual practice in the early days. Denmark received 200 Centurions, I understand, from an order placed in 1954, but I thought these were new builds, so, is the tank in this picture undergoing trials with the Danes, or is it on a joint exercise?

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Nice colour photos of Millie tankers 65BN52 and (probably) 55 in an interesting new book by Tankograd called "British Military Trucks of the Cold War" by Les Freathy. Shows them supporting RAF Wessex helicopters. They are in DBG with red fire extinguishers on the rear and with yellow bridge plates.

In fact the book has to be a "must" for anyone with a Post-WWII British military lorry! I'm very pleased with my copy!

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The army did trial the Berliet TBU as a replacement for the Explorer in 1964-65

Two were acquired for trials and there was to be a collaborative agreement with Alvis regarding Berliet building the Stalwart and the British having the Berliet

The agreement came to nothing. I suspect the picture was taken in BAOR

How interesting, I didn't know that. But the photos weren't taken in BAOR - I would imagine that the caption is correct and they were taken in Aden. Perhaps one went to Germany and the other to MELF for hot weather trials and the photos suggest that Aden had a good selection of other recovery vehicles against which the Berliet might be assessed

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There's a few pictures in an album on my profile.

 

Jules

What a fascinating collection in your Aden album. I didn't know the British Army used the Berliet TBU15, but that appears to be what 43ER39 is - though with an Alvis engine perhaps, looking at the badge on the grille? I wonder whether it was a trials vehicle.

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Weathering is a very common feature of the IRR paint, particularly that applied once the vehicle was in service. Long periods sitting out in the sun can alter an olive green paint to look almost sand.

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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Light-4x4-Utility-Ex-Military-1986-110-in-Green-/272326393457?hash=item3f67eafe71:g:MR0AAOSwtnpXnjRC

Here's a good example of how a Land Rover painted in IRR green can weather to an almost sand colour. And it doesn't take long if the vehicle is left outside. When I was serving it was always a problem with heavy equipment which wasn't used very often and which wasn't kept undercover. IRR paint simply wasn't strong enough for engineer plant. I remember particularly some Coles MkV cranes we used to have - they soon looked tatty and always provoked unsympathetic comment from CO's inspections! We tried to get permission to repaint them gloss DBG so that they would have a harder-wearing coat of paint and look better for longer, but failed.

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Looking at the pictures it is difficult to say. Judging by the over-spray on the cable and the black clip in the under-bonnet shot, it would appear that there was some re-spraying at some time. But, looking at the exterior, the paint covers the chequer-plate and that suggests an external repaint (when it was uprated to Tithonus spec?) There doesn't seem to be over-spray on the lamp holders so it would appear to be quite a good job. In which case, it may be a simple matter of it being the same paint but from different batches. Certainly there seems to be a suggestion that the exterior is suffering form weathering. Weathering is a very common feature of the IRR paint, particularly that applied once the vehicle was in service. Long periods sitting out in the sun can alter an olive green paint to look almost sand. Try a bit of T Cut and see what result you get. The military VIN plate won't have colour details on it.

Good luck with your further investigations

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The main tent appears to be an 8' square with a door in the centre of each wall. You could link three vehicles and have one exit, but I can't see why you'd want to.

 

Nic

The purpose of having tents which link several FV432 armoured command vehicles (ACV) is to provide working accommodation for formation headquarters staff. At brigade or divisional level a number of command variants of FV432 would be parked up in parallel lines, perhaps 3 or 4 on each side, and with perhaps 2 more at each end with their rear doors open and the ensuing gap in the middle covered by canvas. Each FV432 would provide a particular function: Commander, Chief of Staff, Operations, Intelligence, Artillery, Engineers, Aviation and so on and then each staff cell would work off 6 foot tables and folding canvas chairs in the central area while all the comms would be remoted from the ACVs. Map boards would be hung over the horizontal tent poles. If the HQ came under threat then the staff would move into the back of the vehicles and continue to function, under armour, without loss of capability, but, obviously somewhat more cramped than before. Further away there would be similar groupings of ACVs providing the logistic HQ - various support functions - controlling convoy routes and deployment areas, ensuring supplies of ammunition, POL, rations, spares and repair, medical support and so on. Both HQ might be duplicated (main and step-up) so command would be able to switch between them when it was required for one set to move, thus maintaining continuity of command. Not all HQ would be armoured, similar HQ could be provided using box bodies on the back of 4 tonners (BBVs). Each of these HQ complexes would then be supported by various forms of comms provided by R Signals from their own specialist variants of FV430 (FV436, I seem to remember) or, in unarmoured HQ, specialist BBVs. Beyond that there would be the necessary facilities for eating, washing and sleeping provided by the HQ signal regiment or squadron. In effect a small mobile village which could appear at the drop of a hat in the middle of nowhere and be gone the next day with nothing to show for it but old vehicle tracks. All very clever and, of course very mobile and capable of being moved every 24 hours or so as the tactical situation demanded.

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Thank you for the comprehensive answer, the Land rover is 1986 British Army I have the MERLIN Report, and has small bubbles of rust which I want to prevent spreading, it was only then I noticed the 2 different paints

Hmm! Then I'm not sure. If it was built that late, then I would have expected it to be in IRR paint. But, some CL Land Rover soft tops and station wagons were purchased by the military to civilian spec and these would have been supplied in DBG. Does the Merlin report offer any clues?

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Well, it depends on its provenance. If the vehicle is British military and earlier than about 1975, then yes, it will have left the factory in deep bronze green, DBG, (the standard Land Rover green at that time). At some point in the mid 70's British military vehicles were specified to be delivered in infra-red reflecting (IRR) paint. This was a lighter, more olive, slightly brown semi-matt green. Bedfords, later DAFs, and other vehicles arrived from the factory in the same colour from around the same time. When existing DBG vehicles were due for a re-paint within units they were then painted in IRR green paint, but this was not exactly the same shade as the factory colour - it was less brown and, generally, more matt. This is what is often referred to as NATO green, though this is a misnomer as it implies that it was a standard colour applied to all NATO vehicles - it wasn't, it was called NATO green simply because the NATO stock code was prominent on the outside of the tin.

So, if yours is pre-mid70's, then it is highly likely that it is DBG inside and has a number of coats of NATO green on the outside applied with anything from a professional spray gun to a bog brush! Of course, there was an IRR black as well which would have been applied in proportions approximately 1/3 black stripes over 2/3 green as camouflage, though, frankly, it was pretty much a waste of effort as the moment military vehicles leave barracks they become a uniform dust/mud colour anyway.

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It's an Uaz 469. I hope it isn't Neil's

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Just a thought, but, given that your grandfather was trained at RAF Yatesbury, which was a signals school, then I suggest that he probably served in the signals wing at RAF Marham, in which case the box-body on the back of the Bedford is most likely a radio version rather than a workshop.

Just a thought and, as a former "brown job", I'm no expert in RAF matters.

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I think the "Mar G-587" will be the negative reference number. That would suggest it was photographed by the official station photographers' shop.

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RAF Form 524 MT Vehicle Record Card - Front and Back - for BSA WD B40 motorcycle 35 AX 18

 

I don't think these would be carried in the works-ticket wallet. They would be held by the Unit MT Office.

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Was Reserve in Grey Funnel Line so learning

 

And nothing wrong with that! I've had some splendid times with the Senior Service!

One of my favourite songs - "The Grey Funnel Line" by Cyril Tawney.

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Well, the individual units and sub-unts won't have their own badges as such. So, you need good images for:

The Yorkshire Regiment

The Royal Regiment of Scotland

The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

and

The Royal Signals

If you google these and press "images" you should get excellent images of their cap badges which can be printed off, in colour. I'm not sure you will find clearer - it will be all down to the quality of your printer.

You will also find a "badge" for Defence Support Group, though I think you could accurately call it a logo!

Hope this helps

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The only things that should be red always were the nuts (or wheel stud ends) or the ends of the springs that held split rims together. We used to paint the hitches red because it bloody hurt when you walked into them so the red was a chance to avoid the sods. FV6xx series pretty much always had the white line across the hub centres. Some vehicles had the covers on the NATO electrical plug covers painted yellow for 12v or blue for 24v - but not all.

Anything else was "tarting up time" - esp, white wheel nuts :-) - and avoided as much as possible.

You're right about split rims - there were a few others which were official: white was used for lifting eyes - particularly on engineer plant, diesel filler caps, when the fleet was still mixed, were yellow, as were air hose connections (emergency ones were red). But, I was told that towing eyes, in particular, should be left in bare metal and lightly greased so that their condition could be easily checked, though, to be honest, I didn't see many like that. Most were in natural black or green - I'm afraid red painted ones were rather looked down on and I don't recall painted electrical sockets at the time, once the old metal screw-in ones, which, I'm sure were yellow even on 24V FFR Land Rovers - I don't recall blue, had disappeared.

British military vehicles, since the demise of DBG, have been decidedly drab and, quite often, pretty scruffy. And there wasn't much standardisation - some units, for example, used very large stick-on numbers for the tyre pressures. Usually applied wonky (wonkily?) they looked dreadful, but, for a restorer, they're authentic, if not regulation. The Polish MSO tank-transporter regiment painted bumper ends in red and white and, of course, various units adopted dayglow symbols in the top corner of passenger windscreens (red dayglow became available to lots of units after the fire strike as it was issued to add to the sides of Green Goddesses - I still have a roll in the garage.) But, no, white wheel nuts were rare on IRR painted vehicles - but probably less rare than ropes wrapped round front bumpers! Ouch!

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The rule of thumb would probably be: if you are restoring a vehicle to its original colour, as it left the factory, which, given the age of the Milly Mk3 would probably have been DBG, then leaving the little details in their original colour would be correct because they wouldn't have been fitted when the main panels were sprayed. But, once in a unit, the likelihood is that, unless there was a reason for leaving something untouched, it would probably be painted along with the rest of the vehicle. Masking of small things such as lights and reflectors was often done with a smear of grease, particularly if using a spray gun, otherwise it was a case of avoiding things with the brush. Remember, the soldiers with the paint weren't trying to make the vehicle look Gucci, they were trying to camouflage it, so wouldn't want anything bright, or to stand out - so, for example, they painted over the galvanised bumpers and other fittings on Land Rovers, makers' names and so on. (And, of course, vehicle painting wasn't a favourite pastime so they wanted to get it finished quickly and with as little messing about as possible).

An exception is, of course, the tin of red paint which, in a few units, might be brought out to titivate a vehicle for a parade or inspection, or because an MT NCO thought it looked good - so tow hooks might go red, as might makers' names, the odd set of wheel nuts and so on, but, this was frowned on - the rule was that these ought to have been left in matt green or black according to where they fell in the camouflage pattern. Canvas was generally left unpainted (though the RAF Regiment seemed to like painting their tilts). And the black stripes of the camouflage on larger vehicles, such as Millies, often didn't extend over the roof, but stopped at the top of the vertical panels - the idea being that, as it wouldn't be visible to inspecting NCOs, it could be safely ignored. I'm not sure many of us had a great deal of faith in the value of the black and green camouflage anyway. A day or two on exercise in the countryside and just about everything was covered in dust and mud and no differentiation between the colours remained.

And the paint on heavy working vehicles such as recovery vehicles (yeay Radiomike!! At last! NOT "wreckers" in the British Army) - came in for a lot of abuse and the IRR matt paint was very prone to staining from grease and so on and the mud became ingrained and was hard to get out. A lot of stuff usually ended up being re-painted every year after the autumn exercise because everything looked so shabby - it was a right pain.

10 68 PS, meant to say - what a lovely job! Looks superb!

It was something that British Servicemen used to say when the Sterling was in service. The MOD purchased a quantity of 9mm rounds from India I believe and it was unreliable. The unreliability soon manifested into rounds not penetrating wet leather.

IN pre-Northern Ireland training during the mid-70s we were given a firepower demonstration to debunk the myth that the SMG wouldn't fire through a wet blanket. A folded wet blanket was set up on the range with a large number of pieces of plywood spaced 2" apart behind and then engaged from 25m. Went through the lot with no problem at all. Watching a GPMG demolish a brick wall was fun too - the bricks didn't provide a lot of cover for very long!

I once had a box of Kynoch .38 S&W from Weller & Dufty's auction. Putting that through the 'tanker' Enfield was an interesting experience, and one which reduced everyone present to fits of laughter.

"Click"

pause

"Phut" (bullet passes cylinder to barrel gap)

pause

"Pop!" (bullet leaves barrel, large yellow candle flame appears from cordite in barrel burning)

long pause

"Dink" (bullet finally reaches end of range somehow)

The muzzle velocity was about 10 m/s, and the entire box behaved like this. Pulling one round showed the cordite (and it was cordite) to look a bit greasy/sticky, and firing the primer got a "Click, hissss" sound like a match being struck.

It would definitely have been worth filming as a comedy (actually lighting a cigarette from the barrel flame) apart from the risk of there being one round in the box that hadn't deteriorated and the obvious safety hazard.

Sorry, couldn't manage to get both quotes in in the normal fashion!

But, I can vouch for that as well. Again, in NI mid-70s, Enfield .38s were issued to many of us, but there wasn't enough ammo at first to use for training. So, about mid-tour enough became available for us to try the things out on the pipe range. Of the chamber of rounds, "click", "bang", "click, "click", bang" and so on. Rather felt that, in future in a tight spot it might be better to use the gun as a missile and throw it! That was, as I recall, with Indian ammunition.

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There is a interesting book I read recently , the book describes the MI6 operations , it details the mobile MI6 units . They used Guy Ant Wireless Vans and modified US 3/4 Ton Dodge WC Ambulances . The unit also used Packard sedans . Their job was to disseminate the Y intercepts to the Generals in the field . One MI6 mobile unit followed Patton around and the intercepts were hand delivered , each car had its own special wireless sets, these were hand built by the MI6 workshops

 

Secret Wireless War, The: The Story of MI6 Communications 1939-1945

 

Pidgeon, Geoffrey

UPSO, London

2003

ISBN: 1843752522

Pages:

Format: Hardcover

It seems one of the Packards came up for auction back in Feb 2007. It's probably still about. http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/Classic-Cars/Previous-results-holding-page/Blackbushe---Monday-19th-Febru/1938-Packard-Eight-120-Sedan/&iact=mrc&uact=8

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Yep, you need a work ticket and an FMT3. Some units included the small white booklet giving instructions for Service drivers, and, if authorised to draw fuel from civilian sources in BAOR, there may be fuel coupons. and, as others have said, quite often there were contact details for duty recovery. But, don't forget, for true authenticity, you also need a cheap, half-chewed biro which only just works!

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Hmmm! Interesting, thanks for that, Ruxy. I think that in very recent times, Land Rover have offered a shovel and a pickaxe as a genuine part, or, perhaps, accessory. I have seen pick helves in original Land Rover wrapping. They were painted matt army green, so presumably were intended to accompany their products on the military market, but whether that included the British armed forces I don't know - it could be they were for export orders. We were always told not to paint wooden tool handles or hafts, as that stopped the wood breathing and made it brittle - they were always oiled instead.

I'm not sure, though what you mean here:

the NATO branded numbers are in fact for NATO counties (IIRC one being only applicable to Norway) that does not include UK (ISTR was result of research). Other than the NSN branded - all these shovels identical in all respects ,

I'm sure you know that each NATO country has its own national identifier which is applied to its products meeting NATO standards - ours is "99", so, yes, it does include the UK and, yes, Norway has one too "25" and some non-NATO countries such as Australia and Sweden also have them. But if allied countries use equipment sourced from the UK, it will bear a 99 code, just as we have kit from other countries which bear their national identifiers.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about a chap struggling to identify a piece of bent metal on the rear door of his Land Rover. Methinks we have strayed away too far and we mustn't hijack the thread!

Best

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