10FM68

Yes, veterans can be a bit embarrassing at times.  I recall once an old boy extolling the virtues of my vehicle, reminiscing about his own national service and the enjoyment he got from driving one... I hadn't the heart to tell him that my immaculate Uaz 469 wasn't a Champ!  But, you'll recall our time at Builth 2 years ago - the chap admiring my (also immaculate!) Lightweight, telling his son all about his own when 'he were a lad'!  Turned out he and I had known each other in the Sappers years ago!

I echo what Wally says, Clive.  It is just great to see a British vehicle properly and simply preserved in its correct colour scheme and there for future generations to enjoy.  A job well done.  Hope all's well, that you  are enjoying the sunshine and that you saw the aurora last night - we didn't (of course)!

34 minutes ago, ruxy said:

Search the posts of  Royal42

Yes, they are on his photos.  But I wasn't thinking of those type of mudflap which appeared on both winterised and bog frog Lightweights - they're a bit specialised and of a different size.  I was thinking of the standard Land Rover part with 'Land Rover' emblazoned on them.  These were about, from time to time, but rarely and always fitted by an individual rather than as policy.

Generally, no, but very, very occasionally you might find one which had them fitted by an individual user.

Content removed - it was clearly boring.

2 hours ago, Ron said:

Well it's anoying when someone asks a questions and you reply and then get ignored. Even more so when you've taken the trouble to look an answer up . 🤥

And it is all too common for a forum of people with such a closely shared interest.  My solution is now simply to remove my contribution once I know the person who posed the question has been online once subsequently without responding.

Isn't it extraordinary that Jaguar offered a car with a fixed driver's seat!  The poor old 6' tall officer trying to get out of the back of a saloon car wearing a sword and spurs, gets my sympathy!  Trying to do it from the back seat of a Discovery 2 is bad enough!  

Gloss black was used for the chassis and for the fuel tanks.  This lost its sheen over time.  Satin black is often used by restorers but isn't, actually, correct; probalby because it reflects the actual appearance of the elderly vehicle they are restoring - lost sheen appearing satin, or even, somewhat matt.  The same applies to the instrument panel, gear lever pedals and one or two other details: seatbelt mountings, for example.  The bumpers were left unpainted galv fore and aft.  As you say, over time in service, Land Rovers acquired further coats of paint with varying levels of skill - mostly these involved painting the galv bits in body colour - either matt green or included in the camouflage pattern.  It wasn't usual for bumpers to be painted completely black in any form of 'contrast' with the rest of the vehicle. 

But... as with everything to do with the Army, never say never despite what regulations may say.  Tilts are another area - generally the Army didn't add black camouflage stripes to their tilts for most of the time the green & black camouflage was in use.  The RAF did, however, much more frequently on their RAF Regiment soft skins.  Towards the end of the green & black period more army tilts were camouflaged, particularly on older vehicles, though why this started I don't know -whether policy or fashion - either being great drivers.  

Interesting photo showing very early use of the Canadian RCAF roundel with blue outer ring and red maple leaf.

2 hours ago, 67burwood said:

My wife’s grandad in France, unfortunately I can’t make out the markings on the windscreen. 

They look like Army - Royal Signals.  Was your grandfather-in-law R Signals?  Perhaps RAF support communications - that looks like an aircraft symbol on the white & blue R Signals AOS sign on the driver's side of the windscreen.  Something like this?

Content removed

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

Revisiting a few photos of the RE vehicles on exercise in 1980s in BAOR, shows a  distinct lack of Union Flags, but green bridge plates and in one photo I have there is a number in 2 inches high numbers above the headlight.

 

From looking through my collection of photos, I would say that the application of the Union Jack sticker on BAOR vehicles was the rule, rather than the exception and this seems to hold true throoughout the entire history of BAOR.  Of course, UK-based, BAOR reinforcement units which exercised in Germany, but which were not based there, such as 19 Inf Bde, or 2 Inf Div, did not carry them. Some UK-based units - AMF(L) for example did as they deployed with international formations.  But, like every other rule in the Army, it was frequently broken I am sure, not least because the stickers themselves didn't last forever and there would have been times when they were 'dues out' so unable to be applied.

Regarding the bridging circles, the story isn't as clear and it is harder to verify as, with a B/W photo it isn't possible to tell whether the circle is yellow or grey, or possibly, matt olive.  However, there are plenty of colour photos showing grey ones in use on matt green or green/black base colours.  You are certainly right that, by the 90s the convention of applying them had morphed, through 'body colour' to nothing at all.  And, of course, in many cases, the circle was painted on, but not the classification.  As you will see from the photo below of an Antar of 16 Tk Tptr Regt, even the yellow circles sometimes appeared on matt green/black - which, according to the rules, should never have done so.  There are a few colour photo examples below which may be of interest, including a grey bridging circle on an Allis.

The 2" high numbers you mention are the dying remnants of the old AOS signs when the unit type number was on the AOS flash.  The flashes went but, for a time, the numbers remained: below is an example on an Iserlohn Terex: 3/76 - 3 for 3 Div, 76 for the engineer regiment.  

Yes, that is truly horrible.  Nice rubies, though! 

This is the only photo I can find in my collection of a Land Rover Lightweight in factory paint.  Clearly, it has been taken from storage in an ordnance depot (Ashchurch?) and given to SARO of Gloucester (I think) to convert to 'bog frog' for the Falkland Islands (so this has to be late 82 at the earliest).  The stencilling is still on the windscreen from its time in storage and the paint is standard Land Rover IRR 'NATO' green.  (Obviously the modifications have been touched-up to match the rest).  But, note, the galv is unpainted.

My own recollections of Land Rover deliveries (also to an RE unit in the 70s) was this:  When I arrived at Waterbeach in 1977 existing Land Rovers were all in bronze green.  Galv bits were unpainted.  Because we were an Airfields regiment, many of the vehicles had a locally-applied yellow band right round them, but that is a digression.  My squadron was in NI in late 77.  Before we went we were issued GRP armour kits to fit to our Land Rovers.  These were in matt 'NATO' green, some panels having black camouflage, but the panels were all mixed.  Consequently the whole vehicle was painted overall matt 'NATO' green to tidy it up.  This, of course, included the bronze green areas of the vehicle where there was no armour.  When we returned in 78 the kits were removed and the vehicles now looked really dreadful as, where the armour had been, they were still DBG and where it hadn't, matt 'NATO' green.  So they were all repainted in matt 'NATO' green and matt black camouflage stripes were added.  This also saw the end of formation and AOS signs - which 12 Engineer Brigade had hung onto until then.  Repainting was done with both brushes and sprays - the standard wasn't particularly high and preparation not great, so there was quite a bit of peeling as time went by.  It was done within squadrons, the vehicles weren't sent away to workshops for painting.

Shortly after that, maybe late 78 or, certainly in 1979, I saw the first Land Rovers issued brand new in IRR matt green.  Again, galv bits weren't painted, nor were some of the rivets, so it is clear that Land Rover used pre-painted panels in construction - the whole vehicle itself not being painted on completion.  This recollection ties in with my own 1979 Land Rover Lightweight which was supplied in IRR green.

I don't believe any Land Rovers received additional paint at ordnance depots prior to delivery to units.  I think that is also true of other types of vehicle - Bedfords, for example, always arrived in units in manufacturers' paint finishes.

During the DBG days some units hand-painted the galv bits - particularly bumpers.  And, of course, in those days vehicles were kept in considerably better state than they were later on, so unit repainting was commonplace once any signs of shabbiness appeared.  I know when I was in Iserlohn, (early 80s), my squadron spent a great deal of time repainting vehicles after the autumn exercises to get them up to scratch for PRE inspections.  Again, this was done within the squadron and was both spray and brush applied.

I do remember grey bridging circles from Iserlohn days - again, unit applied.  I don't remember there being any requirement to remove them as policy, just that Land Rover stopped adding them to new vehicles (but, as REME occasionally had reason to swap over a grille, it was perfectly possible to find late-issue Land Rovers with bridging circles).

But, there were few hard-and-fast rules, despite what EMERs etc might dictate: much was down to the unit commander and his own ideas of what constituted smartness.  RA units, in particular, were always much smarter than, say RE who were a bit 'cabby' about this sort of thing.  And, of course, some units were very careful with the application of the balck camouflage; others weren't.  QDG adopted a horizontal stripe pattern for the black rather than the, more common, diagonal.  So, basically, there was far greater variation than the rule books might suggest. 

Here are a couple of photos which I know to be contemporary.  They aren't typical in that they are being used for rallying, but they ARE in typical vehicle colours for Land Rovers at that time:

A Series 2A LWB from 39 Engr Regt (Airfds) in 1978.  DBG with AOS (REME) & Fmn signs & yellow bridging circle:

This is a 2A SWB CL in 1979, again in DBG:

And the same vehicle in 1980 having been brush-painted to smarten it up with paint from the store (note the Millie to the rear is also in IRR green without black cam)

Interestingly is the fact that the unit held brand new civilian pattern tilts for their CLs not just standard military ones and that the CL had pusher bumpers at the front but not bumperettes at the rear.

By chance, while looking for other things, I came across this photo which is rather topical.  It shows how the RAF did it!  Rather more cost-effectively, I suspect!

11 hours ago, ruxy said:

The ones I observed seemed to have a more than adequate example of Rover exhaust systems in the tub and that's all.

Actually, you're on the right lines: to be truly accurate there out to be a tractor-style exhaust pipe sticking up through the bonnet.  Oh... and a lot more aerials!

9 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Has that Lwt got a civi cab, with a trunkated tilt behind?

It has all sorts, but, yes, that was the idea, it seems.  There is also some sort of recovery/lifting device along the rear offside and the weight of the bonnet with all the accoutrements is such that the designer has fitted a winding device to lift it!  It is probably the most horrible 'improvement' of a Lightweight I have ever seen!  

Thank you both,  Ah!  I now understand the visual difference between the generator and the welder - the box on the front!  And, no, I hadn't, Mark, but I'm not on Facebook and I see it is a private group.

6 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

I have decided to remove the faded union flag stickers as they were obviously applied after the Lwt was cast, by 7th Para RHA. I think plain and simple and realistic is probably best.

I'm therefore having second thoughts about fitting an extra red NATO tow hook on the front bumper, a front ammo box and the '58 Webbing, attached to the side and every wing, plus get rid of the idea of 3 metre wip aerials with union flags attached from the wings and side of the tilt, like so many realistic vehicles I see at MV shows.

The Pegasus emblem on a maroon background was taken off years ago, but were Lwts ever used by Easy Company, of 506th PIR, of the 101st Div? 

No, you need to go for a typical example, something run-of-the-mill.  Like this...

Further to my qeries about trailers at Old Dalby, there were also some oddly-captioned photos of the interiors of workshops/office/wireless lorries.  Can anyone help me sort these out, please?

First up, a pair purporting to be Type 24V, one showing the generator in stowed position fro travelling!  What, actually, are they - they are probably not the same vehicle (note absence of bench vices in second picture)?

Next is, apparently, a wireless lorry, but I suspect it is a Machinery one:

Finally, as we're on the subject a couple more photos which are probably correctly captioned as a 'mobile machinery workshop' and a '24KW workshop' and which add, nicely, to the topic!

As well as a (probable) Machinery K Light being used to provide spraying power for anti-corrosion paint:

And a couple of photos showing 'flimsies: the 4-gallon petrol tins newly minted and being used to fill a bowser and showing how they were opened!!:

And, finally, finally, the bonus picture:

Again, my thanks to the IWM for these.

I have spent a lazy couple of hours trawling through IWM photographs, including a set which were specially commissioned, it seems, to record technical equipment held at COD Old Dalby.  Unfortunately, our trusty photographer was fine up to the point at which his camera ended.  Thereafter, he didn't seem to have a clue.  So, there are some great photos, but really dodgy captions.  The only one with a clear Census Number is also wrong in the Chilwell list: it is shown as a Brockhouse binned stores trailer which it clearly isn't.  So can anyone help me?

First off; apparerntly this is a wireless trailer.  Could it, in fact, be a Type Z Calibration & Repair of Telecomunications Equipment trailer?  And where are the good sergeant's legs?

Next up: the Brockhouse Binned Stores trailer:

You will see I have called it an electrical testing trailer, but I'm not sure that's right - it was one of the captions on one of the trailers.

Next is a welder or a generator, depending on which view you have, I don't know which as they seem to look alike, but I would plump for Welder:

Finally: are these all compressor trailers?

Well may this good ATS sergeant look puzzled (a bonus picture from the collection!).

My thanks to the IWM for these.

Hmm!  I just went to my bookshelf to find my copy of the Profile Publication on the Lee Enfield to find it has disappeared.  So I can't follow up with fact.  But... the subject is the No1 and No2, not the No3 or the later Nos4-8.  So, I would think it was pre-war, possibly even late WWI (after the discontinuation of the cut-off on the No1) or 1920s.  But, it is difficult to say without looking at it.  Silly question, perhaps, but how old does it look?  Style, type of paper, wear etc?

It's certainly interesting, not least for its inclusion of the 'No2' which was the first of the .22 rimfire Lee Enfields, predating the much better known 'No8' by decades.

56 minutes ago, Adrian Dwyer said:

This image appeared on FB.  Not a Beaverette but an interesting mod.  Does anyone know for what specific purpose these vehicles were developed?

 

Weren't they built for ground-training aircraft turret crews?