MarkV

I just saw this 1916 Federal truck online and was wondering if "Federal" trucks contributed in WWI. 

1916 Federal Truck

This particular example looks a bit beyond my capability to restore.  I have no ties to the sellers but do think it is neat that something of this vintage could turn up in my area!

MarkV

Roger,

I seem to be "doing it wrong" when it comes to sending you a PM.  Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to converse offline.

Progress on my CAD model.

Mark

Roger,

I was just looking through the 1934 Air Ministry "Kidbrooke" plans for their 1914 Pattern RR ACs and noticed that they also show the angle irons used to attach the body to the frame, although by that time they had made a few alterations, including knocking off the sharp corners that protruded into the fighting compartment, welding on brackets to mount a seat (originally there was just a cushion on the floor), and adding an intermediate angle iron bracket. 

While looking at the Kidbrooke plans, I thought I'd have a go at reconstructing the turret in CAD.  I found that the geometry of the turret and the dimensions of the various bits attached to it do allow one to reconstruct the dimensions of its plates.  Its not very flashy and there are no sound effects, but here's a brief fly-through of my CAD model:

Note that to save time I've omitted the angle straps that affix the top plates as well as the nuts and bolts.  - The 1934 rebuild plans call for these angle straps to be 1"x1"x 1/4" duraluminum "shaped to fit on assembly", but I suspect the WWI originals would have been iron.  Presumably the use of duraluminum allowed them to be more easily bent to shape.

The 1934 Kidbrooke plan set includes about 140 sheets detailing the various bits that went into the cars at that time, but provides few direct measurements of the actual armor plates themselves, which presumably were WWI-vintage.  While this CAD process appears to work for the turret, the information to reconstruct the rest of the body may be insufficient to precisely size the remaining plates.  I am still looking at it though.  - It would be much simpler if someone could take a measuring tape to the hull plates of the surviving cars in India, England or Ireland!

Cheers,

Mark

PS - Roger, have you received the PM I sent some time ago?  Unless I am doing it wrong you should be able to see it if you click on your user name at the upper right of this forum page and navigate to your messages. 

Hello Roger,

I am sorry to hear about the family tragedy and wish the best to you and yours.

I checked my profile in the HMVF and see that you just viewed my message.  Hopefully we can establish more direct contact via email shortly.

With regards to the application of paint, it could have been sprayed or brushed at that time, but I would expect that the Army's color at least was more likely brushed on. 

As a 1914 Pattern RR AC the bare chassis would have first been painted as per typical civilian standards for Rolls-Royce at that time.  When the armor was then added the whole thing would have been repainted the Royal Navy's gray.  Here is a 1915 painting of the grey cars in Naval service at the Daily Mail Airship Shed at Wormwood Scrubs.

After transfer to the Army, the Army's paint would then have been applied over the top of all of this.  I suspect that the further the car happened to be from England when transferred, the later the color change occurred and the more likely it would have been brush applied. 

Note that I didn't say what the Army's color of paint might have been.  It is hard to be pinned down with only B&W photos and car names to go by.  The cars that served on the Western front would have been painted in colors appropriate to that environment.  I suspect that they were painted as per most motor vehicles operating in that theater.  The green color previously discussed in this thread seems likely, although some RR ACs in France sported multi-color camouflage.  The RR ACs in service on the Western Front were subsequently shipped to the Middle East and probably carried their (green?) paint jobs with them. 

The cars in Southwest Africa, East Africa and Egypt seem to have maintained Naval traditions a bit longer, and possibly the color of paint as well.  When the cars were moved on to Mesopotamia, there were LAMB RR ACs named "Grey Knight" and "Grey Terror" in 1917 - "Grey Terror" was still called that in 1921 when serving in 2 ACC of the Tank Corps.  "Silver Dart" and "Silver Ghost" also existed across the same period.   These names imply shades of grey.  RR ACs with "Gold" or "Yellow" in their names first appear in 1921 and carry on through the 1920s.  I suspect - but it is just a suspicion - that this is when the cars first began to acquire sand colors.  Here is a Post WWI Tank Corps recruiting poster showing a sand colored car.

Like most folks who study these cars keep saying:  When it comes to modeling Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars, the surest course of action is to pick a particular car at a particular time that is well documented and then work to match that one. 

With regards to the attachment of the body:  Rolls-Royce provided the running chassis and some other assemblies but the armored bodies were installed by others.  Even so, there are RR plans that are relevant.  I'd start with the Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts' Club's technical archives: 

https://archive.rrec.org.uk/

They do not seem to have index sheets or Special List of Parts sheets specific to the 1914 Pattern RR AC, but they do have the lists for the 1920 Pattern and later armoured cars.  Presumably the basic assembly was similar. 

The drawing that shows the attachments for the body on 1920 Pattern and later armoured cars is F9331 "Starter Arrangement on Frame".  My guess is that this sheet was traced from a coachbuilder's drawing for the armored cars, which is now missing.  This sheet shows the angle iron frame at the base of the armor, the wood spacer blocks, and the elevations of the floorboards relative to the chassis.

https://archive.rrec.org.uk/document-detail/OTY4OTU=

Two of the angle irons shown in the above drawing are further described on drawings F8934 "Center Angle Iron for Armoured Car Chassis" and F8935 "Front Angle Iron for Armoured Chassis".

https://archive.rrec.org.uk/document-detail/MTEwNDUx

https://archive.rrec.org.uk/document-detail/MTIyMTEw

These angle irons can be seen standing vertically in the photos taken of the partly stripped "Flying Fox" after it was wrecked in Persia in 1920.  Note that this car burned and so the wooden spacer blocks that would have been between the angle irons and the chassis have burned away, allowing the angles to drop down directly onto the chassis rails.

They can also be seen silhouetted in the photo of LC^0808 being stripped to convert it into a tender on page 170 of the book Masters of Mayhem.   This image also provides a useful view of the underside of the top deck, turret ring and driver's visor.

This image is being shared for research/educational purposes.  I recommend anyone with an interest in these cars acquire the book as there are a number of good images.

I hope this helps. 

Mark

Roger,

Did you receive my PM?

Also, In my previous posting I mentioned that some research had been made into the records of A.F. Craig of Paisley, one of the original builders, looking for plans for the Rolls-Royce Armoured Car.  Just to clarify, that research was done at the University of Glasgow.  According to the National Archives database, additional A.F. Craig company records also exist at the Paisley Museum, at the Summerlee Heritage Center and at the Bradford Industrial Museum.  I am not aware of any research having been done at these archives.

Mark

Roger,

It is possible that the armor plate was provided as a flat-pack to the erectors who then assembled it on their own.  It makes sense that there would have been some sort of instructions provided to the erectors for the bodywork, but I have not seen it.  There was some variation in the 1914 Pattern cars which may be the result of differing approaches among the erectors.  There was a war on and things were being rushed, initially at least. 

The following are companies I have seen associated with the construction of RR ACs in WWI:

There has been some RR AC research into the William Beardmore & Co. and the A.F. Craig corporate archives with no luck so far. 

Barker & Co. Coachbuilders records are split between the Coventry Archives and the London Science Museum Archives.  Does anyone in the Forum have access?  Here are the links:  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/c3cc77ba-0188-40d0-af66-77674616d131

http://archives.sciencemuseumgroup.ac.uk/Details/archivescience/110066307

J.E. Thomas Auto Coachbuilding Co. is also sometimes mentioned in connection with these cars, but as they liquidated in 1916, I don't know if any of their records have survived. 

Muir and Findlay of Glasgow is another firm. 

Another potential source for plans would be the builders of the so-called "Interim Pattern" RR AC.  A small number of these cars were produced in Glasgow during the war.  There is a photo taken in England showing two of these vehicles, so there were at least that many.  There is another photo of one of these cars with a sign reading "The Western Motor Coy. Ltd., Show Rooms 60 Buchanan St. Glasgow."  (Both photos are in the book, The Edwardian Rolls.)  They are distinguished by taller turrets placed on bodywork and chassis similar to the 1914 Pattern.  In addition the driver's vision plate is in two independently hinged pieces and the vision slits are differently cut than in typical 1914 Pattern cars.  At least one of these cars subsequently appears in the LAMBs and then the RAF in Iraq.  One of this Pattern car somehow even makes it into the 1929 Soviet movie "Arsenal" shot in the USSR!

It is reported that the firm of Duff, Morgan and Vermont produced the drawings of the RR AC for the Admiralty.  The War Office approached them post WWI when they wanted more cars only to be told that the drawings had been destroyed in 1918.  There is a bit of intrigue behind this though as the "Vermont"  in this business was MP, Naval Officer, and British Russian Armoured Car Division commander Oliver Locker-Lampson.  ("Vermont" was a pseudonym.  His mother was from the US state of Vermont.)  Had it become publicly known at the time this business arrangement might have raised a few eyebrows for various reasons.  The descendant of this company still exists but does not have records from the period. 

MarkV

PS - Roger - Look for my PM.

Hello all,

There is an original 1914 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured car in Ahmednagar India.  It is in a very sorry condition.  It's wire wheels were swapped for NAP wheels when in service in the 1920s.

Rumor has it that this car was measured and a replica based on these measurements was started in Australia some years ago, but the replica was lost in the transfer of a business.  I don't know if this is the same Australian replica mentioned in the thread above, but I would like to find these measurements as they are the only ones known to exist of an actual 1914 Pattern car and I am not likely to make a trip to India with a measuring tape anytime soon!

Roger, what have you got for plans?  To my knowledge there are no surviving original plans from 1914.  There is however a 1930s plan set prepared by Air Ministry for the RAF which details the update of a 1914 Pattern RR.  A few sheets from this set are reproduced in David Fletcher's excellent Haynes Manual.  This plan set mostly details the equipment going into the car though, as they apparently already had the body and chassis.  I have a copy of this plan set so if you need any particulars we can discuss by PM.  Here's the main index sheet from this set, as shown in the Haynes manual:

(Note:  This book seems to be going out of print, but may still be available through the Tank Museum's Shop online)

The RREnthusiasts Club archives has quite a number of plans of the mechanical bits that make up the chassis of the 1920 Pattern as well as the India Pattern, but dimensioned plans of the bodywork are hard to come by.  There are a few golden nuggets to be found there though.

Let me know if you need any information on Rolls Royce armoured cars.  I've been collecting books and images for more than 20 years, so I have quite a bit.

Cheers,

Mark (USA)

Hello,

First let me say, wonderful replica!

The photos of Bovington's 1920 Pattern Rolls-Royce interior are great, but the hardware varied a bit from that of the 1914 Pattern Rolls-Royce, which also varied somewhat from the Lanchester.  Here is a circa 1915 photo of the interior of a Lanchester.

The RAF Museum's "Hayward Collection" on Flickr is worth a visit.  Here is a link:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/royalairforcemuseum/albums/72157629782125096

Sincerely,

Mark

No! To comply with the Roads Act 1920 military vehicles would have had a civilian registration number. This is in addition to their military serial number. The Bovington Rolls-Royce wears both as does the the one in the first photo.

 

As has been said before, these civvy numbers were often from number blocks allocated to, and then by, Middlesex County Council. "H" and "MH" are both Middlesex series - the 'M' does not mean military. The "H" records are believed destroyed. The "MH" records are said to still exist. I'll send you the details.

Runflat,

What you are saying then is that the "M" in Middlesex County Council's "MH" prefix for civilian registration plates is purly coincidental to the army's separate numbering system (which for a period in the 1920s was prefixed "M" on armoured cars).

Presumably then Middlesex had exhausted its single letter prefix "H" sometime after the 1920 Pattern cars were registered and had moved on to two letter prefixes, which included "MH", by the time the 1924 Pattern cars were registered.

Thank you for clearing this up.

MarkV

Hello,

There are definitely "M" labeled armoured cars that are post-1919.

Here are several 1920 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured cars:

and Bovington's 1920 Pattern Car:

"M" numbers are also seen on the subsequent 1924 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured cars as well:

"F" prefix Rolls Royce armoured cars have so far only shown up in the North Irish Horse, a unit operating 1920 Pattern cars in North Ireland in 1940 or 41.

I have yet to find a "T" prefix Rolls Royce armoured car, however, there is one photo of a 1914 Pattern RR armoured car, taken in 1920 or later, in Cairo Egypt with "T.C.2" painted on the side. This particular car is partially cut off at the edge of the photo though, so it might say "R.T.C.2" for "Royal Tank Corps".

With regards to the civilian-style registration plates, all of the 1920 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured cars that I have seen with plates in historic photos have had only a single letter prefix, "H" followed by a four digit number. There was a 1924 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured car with a plate reading "MH9986" - presumably "M" for military/army and "H9986" as the civilian registration number.

MarkV

Hello,

With all of this fascinating information coming to light regarding the various vehicle identifying systems, I have some questions:

When did the prefix denoting armoured cars switch from "T" to "F"? Also - I have seen quite a few photos of armoured cars, apparantly taken during the 1920's, in which the cars have "M" prefixes. How does this fit in if "T" prefixes came into use in 1919, then "F" prefixes after that?

When did armoured cars begin to receive civilian style registration plates? When they did received them, were they always Middlesex "H" plates?

During the 1933-1939 period what was the WD number prefix denoting armoured cars?

Thank you,

MarkV

Hello again,

So if a vehicle was transferred from, say, the Western Front to Mesopotamia, would it have kept its number, but changed its letter prefix from "M" to "L"?

MarkV

 

"BL" and "BUL" is probably 'Bulford'.

 

Alan

Alan,

Is that "Bulford" as in Bulford camp?

Also, does "NZ" imply that the vehicle was opereated by a New Zealand unit or that the vehicle itself was in New Zealand?

MarkV

Hello,

Here is a link to a bit of information regarding the possible significance of the broad arrow on the vehicles:

Broad Arrow

(This was mentioned by another member on the Landships forum.)

MarkV

Thank you all for your very informative replies!

Alan,

Your response clears up quite a few issues.

I have come across Bart Vanderveen's name several times in my research. I wonder what has become of his files...

Steve,

I do not know much about the colours. I have come across one postcard image of armoured cars in Greece that is colourized.

Of course these colourized postcards were made from black & white photos to which colour was added at a later date, by a different person, in a different country - so they are by no means the final word on the correct colour.

I have put together a list of named Rolls Royce Armoured cars and several have names relating to families of colours. These names are not exactly a specific paint mix, but for what they are worth, here they are:

Golden Eagle

Golden Goblin

Golden Mank

Grey Knight

Grey Terror

Silver Cloud

Silver Dart

Silver Fox

Silver Ghost

Silver Knight

Silver Snipe

Yellow Wizard

There is also T.E. Lawrence's Rolls Royce tender named "Blue Mist". These names seem to indicate greys and sand colours were in use in the Middle East and India from, say, late 1915 on.

They are very rare, but there are colour photos that were taken during WWI:

http://www.worldwaronecolorphotos.com/

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Marne_Color/Marne_Color_10.htm

In looking at another forum (the Landships forum), I found the following discussion related to artillery and transport vehicles which may or may not apply:

The paint mixes that I've been looking at are given in the Handbook for Military Artificers, 1910 and are the same in the 1915 issue which differs in some other respects.

The colour for artillery carriages, engineer transport and other transport vehicles is described as Lead Colour and is a straightforward mixture of white (white lead) and black (lamp black). The instructions say that a lighter colour can be mixed by reducing the amount of black used. In the notes for this colour in the 1915 edition, it is said that this colour is not used on SA Ammunition carts and wagons which are painted in Service Colour. The 1910 edition says that they are painted brown. The notes for Service Colour in both editions say that it is used only on small arm ammunition carts and wagons. This might suggest that Service Colour was a shade of brown but might equally mean that the colour used on these vehicles had changed. The standard of proof reading in both editions is poor and odd details have not been corrected so either interpretation might be valid.

The complete mix for Service colour is this.

Ground white lead 38lbs

Stone ochre 26lbs 8ozs

Burnt Turkey Umber 9lbs 8ozs

Ground lamp black 12ozs

Prussian blue 12ozs

Patent driers 9lbs 8ozs

Raw linseed oil 2 galls 1 quart

Turpentine 3.5 quarts (ie 7 pints)

This mix produces 1cwt of colour.

A second mix is given for Waterproof Service Colour for Canvas Covers. This is the same as the mix above except that the proportions have changed slightly and the raw linseed oil and turpentine are replaced by boiled linseed oil, yellow soap and water.

In all, there are 16 mixes covering 8 colours.

Continuing:

The handbook gives mixes for eight colours and does not always specify their use. Some of the paint mixes are highly specialised but others might be used for almost anything. The colours are Lead (grey), Stone, Service Colour, Red, Black, White, Chocolate and Green. Of these, only Stone seems definitely to be intended for concealment. The red pigment used is Venetian Red which is a brownish colour akin to rust red. The green pigment is Brunswick Green which is rather too blue in hue to be a camouflage colour. Chocolate might be a camouflage colour but its use is not given.

There are two mixes for Stone Colour. The first is this.

Ground white lead 4lbs

Stone ochre ½oz

Turkey umber 1oz

Patent driers 6¼oz

Raw linseed oil for mixing 1lb 6ozs.

Notes accompanying this mix say,"The colour may be varied by the quantity of Turkey umber employed. A common stone colour can be made without adding ochre." This suggests that the colour is not intended as a fixed standard colour and this impression is strengthened by the notes for the second mix.

The second Stone Colour mix is intended for use on the shields and barrel casings of Maxim guns. The mix is this.

Ground white lead 1lb 2ozs

Burnt umber 1.33ozs

Spruce ochre 6ozs

Patent driers 2.67ozs

Varnish, gold size 1/8th pint

Boiled linseed oil 1/6th pint

Turpentine 1/6th pint.

The notes say that this will be enough to apply one coat to the barrel casings of eight Maxim guns. One pound of this mix will coat the front surface of the shields of eight guns. The notes also say,"The colour of the paint may be varied to suit local conditions, such as background &c." This strongly suggests that it is regarded as a camouflage colour. The high proportion of white lead would make this a very pale colour and it would be reasonable to think of it as a desert colour.

The notes refer to varying the shade of the Lead, Stone, Chocolate and Green paints but don't say what the Chocolate and Green were to be used for.

There is nothing in the instructions to indicate whether the paints were matt or gloss in finish and there is no reference to varnishing them although mixes for clear varnishes are given. Camouflage and concealment are not specifically mentioned. The 1915 edition says that vehicle markings are to be applied in white; the 1910 edition doesn't specify a colour.

I understand that the Australian War Memorial Museum Library has a copy of this book. Copies also appear for sale online from time to time. I suggest a Google search. - Google Books has scanned the 1915 edition, but apparently due to Great Britain's stifling copyright restrictions with regards to very old books, you can only see useless snippets of the text online.

Then there is this:

BT Whites British Tank Markings and Names

"Armoured cars used by the Royal Naval Air Service in 1914-15 were generally finished in a light or medium shade of naval grey. An exception was the Royal Marine Artillery Anti-Aircraft Brigades Pierce-Arrow armoured cars (with 2pdr. pom-pom AA guns) supplied in 1915; these were painted Daimler khaki-green, in accordance with Admiralty specifications."

So it appears that the Rolls Royce armoured cars, which started out in the Royal Navy, were sensibly enough originally painted according to naval specifications. After they transferred to the Army, they were presumably painted to Army specifications.

Sorry I couldn't be more definitive. I am not knowledgeable on this topic, I am just passing on what I have read on the Landships forum. I hope this helps

MarkV

Hi Mark.

 

Do you know anything about the base colours used in the Middle East please? Our next restoration project will be a Peerless three tonner, marked to represent one of those used in Mesopotamia but unfortunately, we have no evidence to suggest what colour it should be. We know that at the beginning of the War the European vehicles were grey with black lettering until the change to khaki-green in 1915. However, we have found no reference at all to the colours used elsewhere. Were they desert sand, grey or even green? We should love to know!

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

Steve,

Thank you for your reply.

I am working with a few other interested folks to compile a listing of all of the Rolls Royce armoured cars and Rolls Royce tenders from this period. These "M^" and "LC^" numbers are often the only distinguishing features between cars that can be easily seen in the historic photographs.

So far I have not come across an "L^" numbered Rolls Royce. They all seem to be either "M^" or "LC^". Cars that were photographed in Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia (Iraq), and even Greece are seen with the "LC^" numbers. Of course some of the "LC^" numbered cars were transferred from the Middle East to India immediately after the war, so it would not surprise me to see a few cars there with the old numbering system on them, but so far no photos have turned up of an "LC^" Rolls Royce in India.

If you or your friend have any old photos of these cars that show numbers, I would certainly like to see them and add them to our list. The more numbers we have, the better understanding we will have of the system.

I am very eager to see what Tim has to say on the subject.

Thank you again,

MarkV

Hello,

I am trying to come to grips with the numbering system seen painted on the sides or back of British Army staff cars, lorries, and armoured cars starting in WWI. Vehicles on the Western Front appear to have had numbers starting with "M^" followed by a three or four digit number, while those in the Middle East used "LC^" and then a three or four digit number.

Based on old photos that I have come across, it appears that the "LC^" numbers remained on the vehicles in the Middle East for at most only a few years after the end of the war. The "M^" series appears to have carried on through the 1920's on vehicles based in Great Britain, though. Is this correct?

Did "M" and "LC" actually signify the theater of service or did these designations have some other meaning?

Is there a record somewhere of what types of vehicles had which numbers?

Is it possible to tell when a vehicle received its number, based on its place in the numerical sequence, or were these numbers issued in blocks or by some other arrangement?

Any help decoding this numbering system would be most welcome.

Thank you,

MarkV