PetOp Pete

Don't forget that policies are rarely implemented in whole or on schedule. The venerable L1A1 Self-Loading Rifle 
(SLR) was introduced in 1954 in a NATO-approved metric calibre (7.62 x 51 mm). Ironically, many of the SLR's parts were specified in imperial (i.e. inch) measure, hence the Americans referred to the SLR as an "inch FN" (FN being Fabrique Nationale, the Belgian designer) to differentiate it from the non-Commonwealth variants

If you convert 7.62 mm into inches you get 0.3, which begs the question of how metric was metrication anyway. 

On 12/27/2020 at 5:26 AM, fv1609 said:

I can scan the list if it is of interest.

Yes please.

In return I can upload the STANAG 2335, version 3, sizing charts if that would be of use.

Urine was, indeed, used in some historical tanning processes.

There is some useful information from professional conservators here:

https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes.html

Just scroll down the list until you reach the Leather, Skin, and Fur section. I hope this helps.

I used to be a paper conservator and textiles are a little outside my expertise but this much I know: most chemicals (sprays, washes, etc) are not stable in the long term and will have some kind of negative effect on your collection. Moths and other creepy crawlies, such as silverfish, treat natural fibres such as silk, wool, and cotton as food. You can buy insect traps to help monitor the situation, but your best strategy is to keep the humidity level close to 50% and have a good physical barrier between the bugs and your collection.

Have a look at this site for some sound advice:

http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1439925170741

Good luck.

There are a lot of countries not in NATO that use the NSN (National Stock Number) system of cataloguing stores. Others include Australia and New Zealand

Including a lot more than just NATO and "friends" like Australia and NZ:

http://www.nato.int/structur/AC/135/main/pdf/NCS_codes_chart.pdf

But I wonder if politics might have kept South Africa out in the 1980s.

And the Nato Supply code makes sense. However, the manufacturer does't appear to have ever had a CAGE Code. Was Apartheid-era South Africa even part of the cataloguing system back then?

They were supposed to be worn with puttees! Nobody in our company ever did. Everybody wore the wonderful BCH (Boots, Combat, High) then threw them out on a regular basis since they were not POL resistant.

Clerkenwell and Hoxton must be awash with people wearing them by now. No need to worry though, because they'll all be back on ebay in 18 months time when they are "so last year, darling!"

Or when they discover that wearing them in the city leads to dehydration because it ain't -20 degrees outside. The same silliness happens here in Canuckstan with a brand of parka called Canada Goose. Kids buy them to make a fashion statement then sell them on because they're too hot. Who was it that said nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of "consumers"? Still, I wish I had stuffed my basement with surplus items when they were cheap. The missus would now have to apologize for all those snarky comments about my "green obsession". The Ventile parka on ebay is now almost up to a thousand quid. A dozen of those and one could contemplate a nice little cruise in the Pacific.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/261686446204?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

There seems to be a number of these on ebay lately, and there's no shortage of wealthy bidders. Did the seller make a wise investment 40 years ago or did someone discovered a lost Cold War-era supply depot?

Our TA unit had the SLR (mix of wood and composite stocks) in 1990, along with the Bren as the company's LMG. The lovely Sterling was still the SMG too. And we wore puttees with our POL boots. The only "modern" kit we could boast about having was the S10 respirator.

Would there be any legal issues with shipping/selling helmets to be used in the conflict?

There would be if they were American-made or contained any US technology. ITAR (International Trade in Arms Regulations) catch just about anything with a military application. You'd need to consult the regs themselves to see what applied to the specific helmet.

... i just don't want to do any damage.

It depends on what you mean by "damage". To some folks, normal wear and tear is not damage. To a collector or museum professional anything that detracts from "as new" is damage. Cotton is an organic material, and as such was never intended to last forever.

In a previous life I was a paper conservator, so textiles are a little out of my subject area, but you should hand wash in cool water and use a mild detergent that does not contain any fragrance or optical brighteners. Then hang to dry. In North America, textile conservators will use something called Orvus paste. Not sure what the UK equivalent would be.

Do these have the same variation in sizing as the 1960 Pattern combats (i.e. more restrictive pre-1966)?

Can't remember when we changed from DMS and puttees to Boots Combat High - but it was in the 80s, so either would be OK. Be warned though if you are not used to driving in footwear like either set up.

Into the early '90s we still had POL boots and puttees but we never wore them. Just the BCH, which did not survive much exposure to fuels, so were replaced frequently. Being TA maybe it took longer to get relics like puttees out of the supply chain.

Thank you Steve. I'm not old enough to recall the golden age when cockups couldn't be blamed on computers. But I've seen many examples of oddities such as one item having two NSNs and manufacturers putting the wrong CAGE on labels to be suspicious of anything that involves co-ordination between industry and government. It is difficult to tell when some things are simply an anomaly and when they were intended.

You're probably right the NSN stayed the same because the DPM was a straightforward replacement for the green. It makes the most sense, and unless there is a paper trail hiding somewhere in an archive we can't know for sure.

 

...Oddly, the same NSN's were used for the green and DPM versions........

Hi. Not sure why you say "oddly". Although I am not a cataloguer, my employer is a defence manufacturer, and we sometimes update the configuration of parts without having to do all the form-filling required to get a new NSN assigned.

Cataloguing is something of a "black art" but there seems to be a fair bit of latitude for an OEM to change a design as long as the "form, fit, and function" remain the same. Hence, swapping from green to DPM fabric wouldn't involve bending rules just to keep the same NSN -- and it would save a lot of folks in the supply chain unnecessary work.

From my own experience (with 68 pattern combat gear) you went into the QM store and tried-on various sizes...........90% of my unit ended with Size 1 & 2's.........tall, lanky buggers like me got a size 4..........but no one got anything larger despite the official sizing charts...........nowadays, approaching 50, I comfortably take a size 8 !!!!

It doesn't feel so bad if you just think 8090/0515.

Thanks again for your insights.

Thank you for that. It kinda puts paid to the notion of "uniformity" in uniforms. These changes must have driven the CQMS spare.

Am I right in thinking that when the Pattern 1960 got looser, a squadie who used to wear a Size 8 suddenly went to a Size 7? If the changeover was phased in slowly it would also have meant men in the same unit looked like they were wearing different uniforms even though all the labels said they were technically the same pattern. Correct?

I will keep my eyes open for what I can find here in Canada, but I suspect all roads will lead to our friends at ebay.

Although I am not a hardcore collector -- not yet anyway -- my impression is there were not as many variations within a particular pattern in Canada or the USA. The Coat, Combat, OG 107, GS, MK II didn't change much over three decades. (We didn't even abandon the green colour.) The American M-65 seemed to stay pretty much the same through its lifespan too.

I'll apologise in advance if I should have started a new thread but here goes anyway....

What are the differences between the early 1960 Pattern smocks and the later ones? (Not counting the introduction of DPM material.)

Sometimes it seems as if there is a more-or-less continual evolution in uniforms over time, and the changes in designation (Pattern '60 to '68 for example) are arbitrary rather than significant of some major redesign.

Do they take credit cards?

Mark,

 

I have found a new-old-stock 20" zip........it is genuine ex-MoD, open-ended, very heavy-duty blackened brass, on the "classic" bottle-green cotton tape (which is longer than the 20"-long teeth to allow for tucking-over...).....the puller is blackened-brass and by "Clix".............this zip is for late-60s 60-pattern smocks and early DPM ones too..........it is the correct length for the size 6 smock..........you won't find anything closer in the commercial sewing shop world.....! This is the genuine article in MINT condition too........

 

I have also found a similar 22" variety for size 7 to 9 60-pattern smocks, NOS, made by "ZIPP"....again, ex-MoD stock.....

 

Also found some NOS heavy duty zips (ex-MoD) suitable for trousers...? (they can be shortened with a little work) around 13" long (some slightly shorter and longer), one-way opening (not double-ended), again blackened-brass on either a bottle or olive-green cotton tape...various makers, including "NZ" (Newey)........

 

PM me to discuss the subject further, also if anyone has any particular requirements......I might be able to assist :-D

By chance would you still have that 22" zipper?

Are zipper problems typical of the 1960 Pattern smocks? I've seen quite a few photos (ebay primarily) where the zipper appears to be wavy (which according to my wife the resident textile expert indicates the manufacturer neglected to pre-shrink them). Wavy zippers would lead to all sorts of problems like premature wear and jamming.

Not the North of England, but Canada, the traditional frozen north. But I believe you've had more snow days than we have this winter.

Canada (I'm in Ontario to be precise) is probably not the best place to be if you have an interest in British militaria, but like the saying goes, no matter where you are there you are. And I shall forever be kicking myself for not acting on my interest before I left Old Blighty in '96.

Basically my interests are broad enough that I can't be called a collector in any one field but most of what fascinates me is the history and evolution of specific technologies. At the moment I am trying to learn about NATO uniforms of the Vietnam War era. Therefore my first posts will probably be questions about the 1960 and 1968 Pattern British uniforms and how to acquire examples (without getting caught up in ebay bidding frenzies).

Cheers,

Peter