Charawacky Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 After the acquisition of a RFC Crossley Staff car I have started to ponder the practicalities of the machine, especially as I have experienced one front wheel collapse, one front tyre deflation (cut by the rim) and one front wheel puncture. All occurred on one 40 mile trip. The problems with the wheels have been overcome by wheel rebuilds, however, the rear wheels are twins spoked onto a single hub and the fronts are singles. I am assuming this necessitates the carrying of two types of spare wheel, but I have failed to find a photograph where the two types of wheel are shown to be carried on a staff car or tender! I have yet to try a single with a twin together on the front axle and am unlikely to do so this summer as I am rebuilding the engine. Does anyone have any info, experience or even advice on this potentially dangerous experiment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 What an interesting question. Looking at my Crossley photos they all seem to be carrying two spare wheels. Not having studied the Crossley closely I had never thought about this before, but is it possible to replace one wide rear wheel with two narrow spare wheels? You could always do what we do and carry a spare tyre and then just change the tyre as opposed to the whole wheel? Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 Tim, Are they carrying 2 wheels or a rear twin? The front & rear hubs are the same only the rears has two rims built into the wheels. The Staff Car I have has a twin spare and always has according to those who have known the car since it returned from India in May 68 - before restoration. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Looking at my Crossley photos they all seem to be carrying two spare wheels. Do you mean that Tim? Virtually every photo I have show the 'spare' to be a rear "twin", rather than a pair; and if not a twin then a single (front). Not seen any where two wheels carried. The bracket for the spare is clearly designed for a twin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Great picture that Tom. Not seen twins on the front of a Crossley before. For advice, speak to those crazy GMC guys... http://www.hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=13866 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Cripes, you are right! In every case but one it is a twin wheel with totally mismatched tyres. In the other case it is a single front wheel. Looking at "Royal Flying Corps Instruction dealing with the use, maintenance, repair and inspection of mechanical transport" it says that the Crossley should carry "wheels, wire, twin, detachable, with dummy hub". Also " two tyres, covers, outer 920 X 120MM" and "two Tyres, tubes, inner 920 X 120 mm" "fitted to spare wheel". Hopefully that answers the question. That will teach me not to jump to rash conclusions. Apologies all round for garden path, leading up of. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Works fine on a 352 GMC except for making the steering a bit heavy at low speed but it was specifically designed for use for short periods when towing the 105mm gun in difficult conditions not for general use on roads. The extra strain on kingpins, wheel bearings etc is liable to cause damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 Desgsy Nice to know we British got there first, unless some has earlier evidence? Athough no doubt with such a good idea history will be rewritten. By the way, did the RR Armoured cars just carry a rear dual tyre? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Not particularly helpful to the Crossley question, but on WW2 Dodges you can use 3/4 ton WC 9.00 x 16 rims on the front and inner / outer nuts, plus 1/2 ton WC 7.50 x 16 rims outboard of those. There is a little extra weight, but no extra steering effort at all as the outers are off the running suface until you really need them on soft going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Not particularly helpful to the Crossley question, but on WW2 Dodges you can use 3/4 ton WC 9.00 x 16 rims on the front and inner / outer nuts, plus 1/2 ton WC 7.50 x 16 rims outboard of those. There is a little extra weight, but no extra steering effort at all as the outers are off the running suface until you really need them on soft going. So could that be done on the front AND rearwheels ( I have aCommand car)? I have 1/2 ton rims ( civvie tyres) left from when I had the WC 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) At the Pageant of Power in Cheshire I bumped into a chap today who has a converted RFC tender. He has in the past had to replace a flat single on the front axle with dual and drove about 4 miles to get home. He commented the steering was a little difficult on corners, but it did get him home! Here is a another view with details of the Crossley with plane in tow Ottoman Empire: Gaza Area, Weli Sheikh Nuran 8 October 1917 A German Air Force DIII Albatros Scout aircraft, D636/17, flown by Oberleutnant Gustav Adolf Dittmar of Fliegerabteilung 300 squadron. The aircraft had been shot down, practically intact, into AIF Light Horse lines near Bersheeba by a Bristol fighter aircraft flown by Lieutenant R Steele, a Canadian pilot with No 3 Squadron, Royal Flying Corps. No 1 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps members recovered the machine and moved it to their airfield where repairs, including a bullet holed radiator, were carried out returning it to flying condition. This photograph shows the aircraft attached to a Crossley tender with wings removed being towed from the landing site to the No 1 Squadron airfield. This must have been quite an event at the time. Edited July 18, 2009 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Talking of interchangability of wheels , and looking at this photo of the German aircraft, note the wheels on the aircraft are different. The far one has a wire spoke pattern and no tyre! It appears to be too small for to have come from the Crossley though! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Sily question: Is the Crossley chain driven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Not a silly question, and no it is not chain drive. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bystander Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Talking of interchangability of wheels , and looking at this photo of the German aircraft, note the wheels on the aircraft are different. The far one has a wire spoke pattern and no tyre! It appears to be too small for to have come from the Crossley though!Doug I believe that both wheels would have been spoked wheels, streamlined by the addition of fabric covers. What has probably happened is that the fabric cover has been torn off the far wheel by a flailing punctured tyre. Possibly during the original forced landing or possibly by some un-sympathetic towing. Edited July 19, 2009 by Bystander typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Not a silly question, and no it is not chain drive. Tim (too) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) After reading up I can say Crossleys were chain driven from 1904 and introduced shaft drive in the 40hp model of 1906. By the time the 20/25 (RFC) came out in 1912 shaft drive would have been used on all models. The RFC engine was a high quality unit with aluminium crankcase, 5 main bearings and pressure oil feed. Good breathing meant the engine gave nearly as much power as the 40hp Rolls Royce, no wonder the Royal Flying Corps went from 25 in service at the outbreak of war to 6000 by 1917. Below is a picture which shows just how much part of the Flying Corps the RFC had become: France April 1918. The remains of the late Baron Von Richthofen being carried to a Crossley tender by six pilots of no 3 squadron, Australia Flying Corps. Most evidence points to the Baron being shot down by Australian guns on the ground and no3 squadron salved and buried his body a couple of days later. Edited July 24, 2009 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
things_green Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 what a superb image, quite poignant, thankyou. Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) On futher examination there appears to be a second Tender in the funeral photograph? I have found some more info on dual front wheels used by C Flight of No.14 Squadron 1917 in Hejaz by the Red Sea. "The desert reconnaissances proved invaluable as we were able to ascertain whether the wells were dried up or not and also enabled us to find suitable forward landing grounds. The reconnaissance was usually done by one Crossley tender and sometimes accompanied by a Ford car. The Rolls Royce car of the Armoured Car Section proved too heavy but eventually did good work when the armouring was removed and the cars lightened generally. But they could not compete with the Crossley which when fitted with double wheels on all four would go anywhere." Edited July 24, 2009 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlangham Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) I believe that both wheels would have been spoked wheels, streamlined by the addition of fabric covers. What has probably happened is that the fabric cover has been torn off the far wheel by a flailing punctured tyre. Possibly during the original forced landing or possibly by some un-sympathetic towing. Hi Bystander, yes that's correct - as can be seen if you put a knife through a WW1 aircraft's wheels in a museum - not that I reccomend it! Charawhacky, is your staff car the lime green one that was for sale? A friend of mine was interested but didn't realise how much the seller wanted for it - shame, i'd have looked great in the back in my RFC gear! Edited August 1, 2009 by Rlangham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) Charawhacky, is your staff car the lime green one that was for sale? A friend of mine was interested but didn't realise how much the seller wanted for it - shame, i'd have looked great in the back in my RFC gear! See post 9 here: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?p=148288#post148288 and here: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/album.php?albumid=137&pictureid=1476 Edited August 1, 2009 by Runflat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlangham Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Fantastic, thanks for that - I did some documentary work for a documentary on the Royal Flying Corps a few weeks ago and the Crossley Tender at the Shuttleworth Collection was used for about a quarter of the filming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I knew there was a tourer at the Shuttleworth collection. Didn't know they had a tender - it's not on their site: http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttleworth_vehicles.asp Any pictures of, or history about, it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlangham Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Sorry, slip of the keyboard - I meant tourer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) Having taken the Crossley engine out and dismantled it, I have sent parts to various companies for re-bore, white metaling, crank grinding, fitting of Cummins valves which are a perfect fit and arranged manufacture of new pistons (have a look at the image of the original welded up 1913 pistons!) plus new connecting rods. I now have time to look at other parts which need work whilst waiting for these parts to be returned for reassembly. Turning my attention to the electrical system, the dash amps and volt gauge were stripped and found to have defunct 1960,s gauges glued to the original butchered Rotax facia (see image), so I took the old facia to my local obsolete parts stockist 3 miles up the road and asked if he had a suitable working gauges I could fit behind the facia in the same way. He disappeared for a good 10 minutes and returned with a complete identical 1912 pattern Rotax facia with gauges which I have now fitted and wired, and they work! He only had the one, I could not believe my luck! These correct Rotax instuments are made of wood with wire wound round, very crude, but effective, automotive electrics were still in their infancy and were experimental just 3 years earlier. Edited September 4, 2009 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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