WW1 Thornycroft restoration

[.303fan]

Always lovely to see the old details

would the smaller numbers be more rare? i know that multiple foundries were used.

[Minesweeper]

Always lovely to see the old details

would the smaller numbers be more rare? i know that multiple foundries were used.

 

The smaller numbers were not cast in but were stamped in after casting - using "number stamps". See posting no. 1337.

Could be a different maker but also perhaps another Pattern was used without the numbers on it so that the Foundrymen just stamped the numbers in afterwards. I guess we shall never know!

 

Tony

[GeePig]

I like the way that what on first sight appears to be an old truck, actually breaks up into a wealth of detail when you start examining it - so many questions that may or may not be answerable...

 

trevor

[Asciidv]

Whilst the Thorny restoration is moving at a little slower pace, I wonder if I could ask a period question about something I know very little?

 

 

How were solid rubber tyres manufactured like those shown in the above photograph? Are the pads hard rubber disks which are screwed into the rubber below? Could they even have been moulded like this!? Do any tyres of this type survive? Has anyone tried to re-create such tyres in recent times?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Barry.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Asciidv

[Chris Suslowicz]

Whilst the Thorny restoration is moving at a little slower pace, I wonder if I could ask a period question about something I know very little?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]93972[/ATTACH]

 

How were solid rubber tyres manufactured like those shown in the above photograph? Are the pads hard rubber disks which are screwed into the rubber below? Could they even have been moulded like this!? Do any tyres of this type survive? Has anyone tried to re-create such tyres in recent times?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Barry.

 

On the assumption that they're solid rubber, it's a fairly sticky (or can be manufactured to be fairly sticky) compound until cured. Assuming the normal solid tyre was produced by extrusion, it could be cut to length, then formed into a hoop and have the studs bonded on before curing in an autoclave or be moulded as a standard length with the discs before the bonding and curing process. (The inner layer might well be "wound on" to a former before the tread is glued on (using naptha as a solvent, I think), similar to current practice where the case and tread (plain) are assembled from separate components (and different compounds) before insertion into the mould with the desired tread pattern for final forming/curing.)

 

For pneumatic tyres the usual machine was a "Bag O Matic" press, in which a central bladder inflated to force the uncured "casing" into the two piece mould (with the tyre horizontal, there would be a top and bottom half mould) before the heat was applied (superheated steam) to cure the rubber. For solids I could imagine a segmented "belt" type mould to force the tyre against a rigid central drum.

 

Yes, I used to work at Fort Dunlop, but as a dinosaur herder in the computer department.

[MatchFuzee]

Just searched "solid tyres for traction engines" and found these 2 sites.

 

This company still make solid tyres:-

 

http://www.cliftonrubber.co.uk/products/sports-leisure/traction-engine-wheels/

 

This company restores solid tyres:-

 

http://www.reliantrubber.co.uk/reliant_rubber_tyres_wheels.php

[Great War truck]

The Rear wheels now ready for sand blasting and the two angles for the engine mounts in the chassis cut and ready for marking, shaping and drilling.

[GeePig]

That is a nice looking bandsaw you have there!

 

trevor

[Great War truck]

We have been quite disappointed that our progress has been so slow recently – and unfortunately other priorities seem to have got in the way for all three of us! We hope that “lights and tunnels” are now appropriate for all of us!

 

There are three or four jobs that we want to get on with and they seem to be inter-dependant. The engine is mainly together – very little to do to that now and we want to get that into the chassis, out of the way. But it needs engine mounts – and these have to be made – description to follow!

 

Even when they are made, we have to be able to move the chassis under the block and tackle – so we need wheels! The front axle has been stripped down and sand blasted. Both of the axle swinging arms have been removed – one is fit to be used again but the other is badly worn and must be replaced with a twin – still to be recovered from another old axle in our possession – and that one is sound. It needs either Steve or Tim in Axminster to help Tony get that axle to our friendly local garage where there is a big press available!

 

The front wheels are now with Steve in Leicestershire as the hubs are worn and have to be skimmed – but first those wheels must be taken to the Tyre Press in Bedfordshire so that the old tyres can be pressed off. A friend up there has a big lathe that will accommodate the wheels for “hub skimming”. The King Pins must be looked at – and perhaps new bushes made for them in the axle.

 

The Back axle is to be looked at and hung when it is ready but the springs have to be hung first of all. We have new back springs but we need new shackle pins to be turned first. That job is very close. The back axle complete with the diff from NZ gifted to us by Mike is waiting for us – it has been safely stored for this moment to which we have been looking forward!

 

So turning first of all to the engine mounts....... The engine is not hung directly on the sub chassis but it has three mounting points which go on to two lengths of 3” x 3/8” steel angle – one angle is bolted on the off side directly to the sub chassis but the angle on the near-side is able to move by a swivelling joint bolted to the sub chassis. The engine on that side is bolted to the angle but that angle is designed to move slightly with any twisting of the chassis when on the road.

 

The photographs here are of the Carlton Colville Thorny which will give you some idea of the arrangement. The last picture shows the female part of the swivel attached to the angle. The male part is of course, bolted to the sub chassis and is not visible.

 

Edited July 19, 2014 by Great War truck

[Great War truck]

As our chassis was recovered from under a Shepherd’s Hut, the engine had of course long been removed together with the fittings – except one. Over the last 20 or so years, Steve has been collecting Thornycroft information, and has it ready for this day. So when 20 years ago, Steve was working in Portsmouth, a Thornycroft “J” Bus was stored in the Bus Garage and Steve spent many of an evening measuring and sketching the appropriate bits of that bus that we did not have! That information has proved invaluable and that together with further information obtained from Carlton Colville, the attached sketches have been prepared of the Engine Mounts so that we can make replacements.

[Great War truck]

The first of these three pictures show the two groups of four holes through which the fixed, off-side angle was bolted to the sub-chassis.

 

The second picture shows the large hole through which the male part of the engine mount goes through the sub chassis and on which the swivelling joint rests. The four holes – two either side take the retaining bolts to hold the male part of the joint in position.

 

The third photograph shows the male part of the arrangement – and is the only original part of the set-up that we have. As it has been exposed to the elements over the years it is badly corroded - we plan to use it again by skimming it and then sleeving it. The thread on the end is 1” Whitworth – but not much left of it! The part that fits very tightly into the chassis frame is not corroded and does not have to be touched.

[Great War truck]

So we got cracking on the first of the 3” angles today – the large part that had to be removed was cut out by chain drilling and finished with a hack-saw. Not very scientific!

It was then cleaned up with an end mill.

 

We can put some of the holes in this – but others will have to be “spotted” through from the original holes in the chassis.

 

It needs to be further tidied up with the sharp corners taken off.

[Great War truck]

We have been working on the second Engine Mount Angle today – although there is not a lot that we can do to it at this stage. Several of the holes to be drilled in it need to be done and marked out along side other fittings on it, just to ensure that the holes go in the right places.

 

The two slots shown in the photos are for clearances – an oil pipe passes up through the round one and the front one is for a clearance right at the front end.

 

Holes will have to be drilled in it to take the female part of the swivelling engine mount casting – Steve has been Pattern-making and we hope to be able to take this to the Foundry very shortly to have it cast.

 

The angle worked on yesterday is to be fixed to the sub frame and this can be clamped into position and the fixing holes for that spotted through from the frame and drilled out to take the required 1/2” Whit Bolts or Screws. The next job!

[andypugh]

If I played your game I think I would have been unable to resist buying a plasma cutter.

 

Even though I don't play your game, I still keep nearly buying one.

[Asciidv]

If I played your game I think I would have been unable to resist buying a plasma cutter.

 

Even though I don't play your game, I still keep nearly buying one.

 

Andy, but you do play their game! With a plasma cutter you could have fitted the torch head to your CNC mill and profiled out your Ner-a-car footboards.

 

For anyone who finds this Thornycroft restoration essential reading, Andy's restoration of his Ner-a-car is equally as ingenious and deserving of admiration.

 

http://bodgesoc.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=9

 

 

Barry.

[flandersflyer]

If I played your game I think I would have been unable to resist buying a plasma cutter.

 

Even though I don't play your game, I still keep nearly buying one.

why not just burn it out with the bottles?

 

if you use the correct nozzel ...and get the gas/oxy set rite....then it will fly through lovely...with just a bit of fluff to click off with the grinder afterwards...

[andypugh]

why not just burn it out with the bottles?.

 

My reason is that I couldn't bear to be paying £30 a month for a set of gas bottles that got used twice a year.

It was bad enough paying for the TIG argon, until I eventually decided to front up the £160 for an Albee:

http://www.albeegascylinders.com

[Great War truck]

Went or see the Sand Blaster this morning to arrange to get the rear wheels “blasted”. Took the two engine mounts just made with me and he very kindly “blasted” them whilst I was there to get all of the scale off. Cleaned them up nicely and they have since had one coat of Bondaprime.

[David Herbert]

If I played your game I think I would have been unable to resist buying a plasma cutter.

 

I agree that a plasma cutter is probably the best way of cutting bites out of a piece of angle and lots of other profiling and cutting jobs. The problem is that you do need quite a big compressor as well, probably big enough to run a blast cabinet which would also be very usefull. I think most people can't justify this level of plant but I must admit that a 9" angle grinder with a thin cutting blade would have considerably reduced the chain drilling and the subsequent tidying up. Then again most people have neighbours that don't appreciate the noise of angle grinders. Back to chain drilling then :-(.

 

David

[Minesweeper]

I agree that a plasma cutter is probably the best way of cutting bites out of a piece of angle and lots of other profiling and cutting jobs. The problem is that you do need quite a big compressor as well, probably big enough to run a blast cabinet which would also be very usefull. I think most people can't justify this level of plant but I must admit that a 9" angle grinder with a thin cutting blade would have considerably reduced the chain drilling and the subsequent tidying up. Then again most people have neighbours that don't appreciate the noise of angle grinders. Back to chain drilling then :-(.

 

David

 

And it also comes back to your level of skills - mine are limited and basic and it is easier for me to live with what I know I can do. I am not happy with a 9" Angle Grinder, either! With my advancing years and reducing strength, I find that a 9" Grinder is too much for me to safely handle!

 

Tony

[Sean N]

The idea of using a 9" grinder for that job frightens the life out of me! I'd have used a grinder as well, but a 4.5" - much more controllable and less scary if something unexpected happens, it'd still cut the steel adequately and be a lot easier to make a neat precision job. I'd probably drill each corner to give something to cut to and still clean up with the mill.

 

Having said that, it's horses for courses as Tony says. There's a lot to be said for doing what you're confident with.

[flandersflyer]

I agree that a plasma cutter is probably the best way of cutting bites out of a piece of angle and lots of other profiling and cutting jobs. The problem is that you do need quite a big compressor as well, probably big enough to run a blast cabinet which would also be very usefull. I think most people can't justify this level of plant but I must admit that a 9" angle grinder with a thin cutting blade would have considerably reduced the chain drilling and the subsequent tidying up. Then again most people have neighbours that don't appreciate the noise of angle grinders. Back to chain drilling then :-(.

 

David

either that or a stihlsaw....

[andypugh]

The idea of using a 9" grinder for that job frightens the life out of me! I'd have used a grinder as well, but a 4.5" - much more controllable and less scary if something unexpected happens.

 

I think that Flandersflyer might have been intending to joke about the Stihlsaw, but actually I have found that you can be really controlled with one. It's a bit like cooking where a big knife is more controllable than a small one, the inertia of the tool can be useful to control twitchiness.

 

I get really quite good at cutting out stone mullion windows with a Stihl saw in a previous project. If I still had one I suspect that it would have been my go-to tool for the angle iron here.

[flandersflyer]

I think that Flandersflyer might have been intending to joke about the Stihlsaw, but actually I have found that you can be really controlled with one. It's a bit like cooking where a big knife is more controllable than a small one, the inertia of the tool can be useful to control twitchiness.

 

I get really quite good at cutting out stone mullion windows with a Stihl saw in a previous project. If I still had one I suspect that it would have been my go-to tool for the angle iron here.

well...i have a

 

stihlsaw that i use for general work...like getting through concrete rafts & the like so i can get armoured subs in the ground..(i`m an electrical contractor)...

 

 

it comes in as well for cutting large section armoured & SY cable....

[Great War truck]

Followers of the ‘Dennis’ thread may recall that Steve is also keen on miniature railways and has a locomotive of his own. This he run runs at the ‘Echills Wood Railway’ near Tamworth. At the railway, his good friend Adrian, has been the Mastermind behind the construction of a workshop to support the railway and for the general benefit of the members. Steve has assisted with this project for the last two years from the manufacture and erection of the building to the laying out of the workshop and commissioning of the machine tools and it is now ready for use. As you can see in the pictures, there is a big Dean Smith and Grace lathe which has had many hours of cleaning and painting given to it by Bob and Trish, two of the members, with the result that it looks just like new. When he saw it, Steve’s first thought was ‘I can do the brake drum on there!’