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WW1 Thornycroft restoration


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21 hours ago, dgrev said:

Steve 

I think we briefly mentioned this once before, but you really do need a serious shed upgrade.

Regards

Doug

Yes, a larger shed would make life a lot easier. I think there is a rule, however, that no matter how large your shed, you will always have slightly more than you can reasonably store!

We have been doing some more. One of the jobs finally ticked off this weekend was the rear wheel hub greasers. These are ordinary stauffers screwed into the wheel hub on extensions. We had one original and I turned up the other long ago.

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The trouble was that the threads in the wheel hubs were extremely poor having been left outside for so long. I tried Father's 1/2" BSF taper tap and that eventually got a bite but it was a funny tap with a taper along its whole length and there was insufficient depth to screw it far enough for Father's plug tap to start. After messing for a couple of hours a few weeks ago, I gave up and Dad has since obtained a second cut tap. This has made all the difference and with a bit of cutting compound, the threads were cleaned and the greasers screwed in. Part of the challenge, though, was that the threads are buried inside the wheel with no room for a tap wrench so I used an old trick picked up in the factory at work whereby I filed a square hole in a nut to match the tap and then used a socket extension to turn it.

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After starting the tap with my fingers, this made all the difference and the job was soon done.

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Another one ticked off!

Steve   :)

PS A photo like this always shows up the bit which didn't get painted!

 

 

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Dad has been endlessly painting but it is beginning to pay off. He finished the hood frame brackets this week so the first job on Saturday was to fit them.

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They have been in stock for a while and it was nice to get them out of the way!

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One hole in each bracket faces into the end of the side plank so it needs a 1/4" x 1" coach screw instead of a bolt. Unfortunately, we are out of old ones and modern ones have hex heads instead of square. Something I will have to make in due course I guess but not now. Time is too short!

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Once the brackets were on, the seat could be bolted down. We had left it loose so that it could be pushed sideways to get the drill in! The seat is held down by two 3/8" coach bolts and two straps with 3/8" studs welded at the ends. I asked our senior welder at work to attach them as I don't trust mine in this situation! We also took the opportunity to put split pins through the ends of the studs as I really don't want the seat coming loose in service as it could give me a lot more excitement than I want.

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Pushed outside.

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Fitting the hood frame is a horrible job as it is big and heavy and awkward to handle whilst working at height. Not good for my temper at all....

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Looking good!

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We measured the length needed for the leather straps and have passed that information on to Mark.who is making them for us..

More tomorrow!

Steve   :)

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Something else we got on with was the heat shield over the exhaust manifold.

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I had a rummage in my steel store this week and found a piece 21" x 9 1/4" . I wanted 20 1/2" x 9" so that was the one! A bit rusty but ok after a quick sanding.

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Adrian very kindly put it in his press-brake which did a wonderful job and much better than I could have managed with two pieces of wood and a hammer. Quicker too!

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When we looked at the manifld, we realised that there were the remains of two studs still in the holes so the next tas was to dig them out. I very carefully scraped and then centre-popped them. Successful stud removal really does depend on getting the drill down the middle.

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As usual, I started off with a very small drill and worked my way up to the tapping size. When I first started the dimple, I could see that it had drifted slightly off so I angled the pistol drill to move the dimple back into the centre of the stud. This was quite painstaking but well worth the effort as the tap went straight down the hole and cleaned it out nicely.

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Then I had to do it again!

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All successful.

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Some exhaust black to finish and Dad has fitted it back to the engine.

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There is a casting that fits on top of the studs to hold the shield and support the HT lead tube. I haven't got around to that one yet and there will not be the time before Brighton. The HT may be secured with a bit of wire!

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Steve   :)

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Hi Steve,

At first glance this rather unnatractive cowling appears to be a simple heat shield, but the union fitted to the two studs suggests more pipework is required and that the original purpose was to supply warm air to the carb to pre heat the fuel ? Although obviously useless for starting, this arrangement may have helped prevent carb icing whilst the engine was running. If this is the case, it will also need a large hole between the studs.

Just to show I am paying attention !

 Regards,Tomo

Edited by Tomo.T
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6 hours ago, Tomo.T said:

Hi Steve,

At first glance this rather unnatractive cowling appears to be a simple heat shield, but the union fitted to the two studs suggests more pipework is required and that the original purpose was to supply warm air to the carb to pre heat the fuel ? Although obviously useless for starting, this arrangement may have helped prevent carb icing whilst the engine was running. If this is the case, it will also need a large hole between the studs.

Just to show I am paying attention !

 Regards,Tomo

Quite right! I probably won't ever cut the hole but I will make the casting and fit the pipe. Not before Brighton though!

Steve  :) 

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Dad still pressing on with the endless painting. The rhs has now had its second coat and the bonnet boards are in undercoat. Weather not looking too good for painting this weekend though. This is one critical job we can't speed up. Oh well. We must do our best.

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Dad has also machined up the differential spider. It was an awkward thing to hold but with gentle cuts, he was successful.

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Note the lines scribed on the back of the legs in order to position the bolt holes concentrically with the boss.and bore.

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He clamped it to the milling table in order to get the bolting face parallel to the rear face. As this is a high speed rotating component he has made every effort to get it all true, square and concentric to try to avoid propshaft vibration. A six foot length of 3" tube rotating eccentrically would certainly rattle the teeth!

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Now that Barry's gauge has been found a perfect fit, the casting has gone off to have the spline cut. Once the spider is on the differential, it will set the length of the prop-shaft and we can put that together. I am looking forward to ticking that job off!

Steve   :) 

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Yes, I did spot that but am not quite sure what it is, None of my pictures show any sort of fastener just there and I am beginning to think that it is something to do with the pattern possibly a chaplet. I remain to be proven wrong, however!

I have been working on the floor extension on and off for a while. Whereas that for the Dennis is horizontal, this follows the line of the main floor and tapers outwards as well. I had a rummage in the garage to see what timber we had left over from the Dennis and found enough to glue together and do the job.

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The good old Woden Dowelling Jig came out from under the bench and was pressed into service again. It really is a great tool.

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Dowelled and glued together.

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Then the edging strips.

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Once down in Devon, I used my dinky bandsaw to set an angle at the ends.

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Then bolted a block to the seat front to support it.

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After that, it was just a case of planing the ends to fit. Job done and the panel is now in the paint shop.

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One other task was the P-clip for the oil pressure gauge pipe. If I didn't do it then, I would forget about it.

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Tomorrow is the first day of a week off work. I really need to get some production going and need to tick off at least one component per day if we are going to make it. I shall put my alarm clock back a bit but not by much!

Steve   :)

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Something I have been working on for the last couple of weeks is the tailboard hinges. These are heavy ironwoirk jobs and involve welding and angle grinding, neither of which I enjoy. However, the job needs to be done.

The straps replicate forgings with thick bosses at the bottom ends. I created these by turning up some bosses to weld on.

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Poor old Myfard, always working to the limit!

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My welding set up, indoors this time.

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My welding has improved slightly but I did put down 30, 3mm rods in the course of this exercise.

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A wooden welding bench doesn't do the atmospheric conditions much good, hence the foggy picture!

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The the side pieces to take the catches. These are just bits of plate with square holes in, started on the mill and finished with a file..

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Veed out and butt-jointed.

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Thank goodness for angle grinders and filler!

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The original forgings have radiused edges so these were added with a file.

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Filler!

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Works though!

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Now the catches. These just bolt to the uprights at the rear corners.

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All done, at last. Now I can get the filthy grinding dust out of my workshop.

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Into the paint shop.

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Now we can assemble the tailgate. Magneto coupling next.

Steve   :)

Edited by Old Bill
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On 15/03/2018 at 12:35 PM, Old Bill said:

Quite right! I probably won't ever cut the hole but I will make the casting and fit the pipe. Not before Brighton though!

Steve  :) 

I was curious about this but discovered by chance a comment from Richard Pesket in the Dennis thread. Apparently, modern fuel being more volatile, does not need or take kindly to preheating. I am now enlightened. I have also seen a couple of pictures showing an earlier style of cowling, which is more rounded and possibly more correct for a ww1 vehicle.

Tomo

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20 hours ago, Old Bill said:

My welding has improved slightly but I did put down 30, 3mm rods in the course of this exercise

Steve, a definite improvement! However, isn't it tedious knocking all the slag off ready for another pass? I know so many jobs would be easier with different equipment and you just have to prioritise what you would buy next, but I think top of your list should be a 250A MIG welder. 

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Thanks for the pic Tomo. I have not seen that one before. The heat shield is quite different from any I have seen before. Mine is a copy of that on the Carlton Colville lorry and looks like the one in the parts book so I don't think I am too far off.

Actually Barry, I was quite pleased to knock the slag off in one piece each time instead of chipping it out of holes a piece at a time! I'll put aMig on the shopping list.

There are two items left to do before we run the engine. I have just tackled one of them by making up the magneto coupling. This was probably a forging but I have fabricated it by adding a boss to piece of flat plate.

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The magneto shaft is tapered and, some time ago, I tried to fit an impulse starter to the Dennis mag. I was unsuccessful at the time but did make up a setting jig with the right taper. Even better, I found it!

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This allowed me to set the topslide over at the right angle to bore the boss out.

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Once bored, it needed a keyway cutting in it. This was a five minute job with my home-made slotting attachment.

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Brazed up with the outside profile turned to diameter.

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Then it was a case of turning up the drive studs and pressing them in.

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Turned up a woodruff key:

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Job done!

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Only one job left before engine start and that is the oil fill tube and cup.

Steve   :)

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A week off work, Hurrah! I could get used to this. An opportunity to really get things done!

I think the reason they all lost the oil filler is that it is copper and brass. Should anyone need Thornycroft information to aid their rebuilds then we are always only too delighted to help. I don't have full engineering drawings of everything we have done but I have an enormous folder of notes an dimensions. That is what comes of nearly 30 years of collecting data!

Back to the oil filler. This is what it looks like.DSCN0474.thumb.JPG.7aecba04d7a247aeedf218984e33686c.JPG

As you know, I have been struggling to bend the tube so, for the sake of expediency, I have put together an assembly using commercial fittings. This will be replaced when I find time to make a special pipe bender and can do it properly with no time pressure. 

I made the base flange a long time ago when I was getting bored with pattern making and desperately needed to cut some metal.

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The fittings were a gift from a pal in Exeter.

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Fluxed up for silver soldering.

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A good clean and job done!

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Then onto the cup. The only way I could think of producing it was by spinning from a sheet of brass. The first job, therefore, was to turn up a 'chuck'. I found some pieces of old school workbench which I laminated. These were beautiful pieces of beech.

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Then off we go. A disc of 20swg brass annealed and then rubbed with soap as a lubricant.

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I am not yet skilled enough to do it without creating ripples or to spin the ripples out. My most successful solution to this problem has been to remove the job and beat the ripples out with a mallet on a piece of wood before having another go.

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And again!

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This cup has a beaded top edge which is something I have not done before. Unfortunately, I got a bit carried away and broke the top flange right off. There was just enough metal left to turn over but it is rough and cracked so I will make another when I get around to bending the pipe.

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It will do.

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Then spin the lid in the same manner. This time I managed to bead the edge without breaking anything.

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The lid needed a knob which has a projection underneath to secure a spring. This was a nice turning job.

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Then the moment of truth, solder the tube to the cup. This actually went surprisingly well but I did treat it with solder paint first, hence the runs which soon cleaned off.

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The original has a gauze inside to prevent anything from entering the sump. Whilst poking around the workshop this afternoon, I found a shield from the back of an old fan oven, rescued for some reason. It was perfect!

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A rummage in the spring box found something suitable.

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Job done!

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This is only temporary until I can make a better one but it will allow us to run the engine. Start up is going to be the Easter weekend.

Back in the shed tomorrow. Foot brake bits next.

Steve    :)

 

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Steve

Excellent attention to detail for a temporary fitting.

In your photo of the Carlton Lorry (IIRC) the cup looks to be copper rather than brass?

On the far side, there appears to be 2 "fingers" clipped over the edge of the cup or lid?

Regards

Doug

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Hi Doug.

You certainly look closely at the pics! Yes, there is a clip on the back of the cup. Not quite sure why but the two fingers would hold the lid vertical whilst filling with oil. I will make one eventually but as the assembly is due for replacement, I am looking for time saving at the moment and will miss it out on this one. Actually, this cup was supposed to be re-used until I messed up the beading!

I am pretty sure it should be brass and that the Carlton Colville one is just suffering from extended exposure to the atmosphere. Copper might have been easier to spin though.

Steve.

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Dad has been working on the throttle pedal as a back-burner job on and off for a while. He started by turning up the pedal face.DSCN2501.JPG.a112a3d5993bfa1eba08cf0fbec0d011.JPG

Then he hacked out the profile the hard way!

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He brazed on the bosses and the pivot shaft and the pedal can now be used. However, it should be quite a slender elliptical section which will require a lot of filing. In the name of time saving, he has stopped at this point and we can finish it off later.

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We are definitely getting into the 'barest minimum' mode now. Nothing is being done wrong (except perhaps the oil fill tube) but we are aiming to do 'just enough'. It is still going to be touch and go though!

Steve    :)

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Interesting slotting attachment. Might need to make a plate on my lathe bed, although i hope to het a old worn lathe to use a bed and bolt my deviding head on to it. That metal spinning set you have, does the lathe need a lot of speed? Or slower and more torque? I am thinking brass land rover head light rings and brass head light bowls for the series 2a. 

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23 minutes ago, .303fan said:

 I am thinking brass land rover head light rings and brass head light bowls for the series 2a. 

I made some headlights and headlight rings for my Ner-a-Car. 

http://bodgesoc.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Neracar11 The Eyes Have It

The method for making the rings is only obvious once you see the tooling ;-)

 

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9 hours ago, Old Bill said:

We are definitely getting into the 'barest minimum' mode now. Nothing is being done wrong (except perhaps the oil fill tube) but we are aiming to do 'just enough'. It is still going to be touch and go though!

 

 

That oil fill tube is a work of art! It speaks volumes about the high standards that you set yourselves, that you consider it to have been "done wrong". 

Fingers crossed that you meet your deadline....

Edited by mtskull
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9 hours ago, .303fan said:

Interesting slotting attachment. Might need to make a plate on my lathe bed, although i hope to het a old worn lathe to use a bed and bolt my deviding head on to it. That metal spinning set you have, does the lathe need a lot of speed? Or slower and more torque? I am thinking brass land rover head light rings and brass head light bowls for the series 2a. 

I made the slotting attachment to the George Thomas design in the Model Engineer magazine some years ago. It is a wonderful tool and makes keyways very easy and satisfying.

The spinning process, I picked up from this book which I obtained from 'Camden Books'.

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For speeds. the book says 'fast' which isn't very helpful. I tend to run at about 1000rpm which seems to work. The best thing to do is to watch a few Youtube videos on the subject and then just have a go. The book shows the tools so I made them up to the picture. This is the first time I have had a go at beading and, despite some practice, I made a hash of it. Oh well. Practice makes perfect.

Just have a go as it is a nice skill to have.

Good luck!
Steve

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I have half a hand powered shaper, fitted on a cross slide i will have most function out of it. If i can find a semi ruined lathe or a cheap lathe with gearbox i will sacrifice my old one in a way it can be reversed to build what i need. The deviding head only has one plate with holes to use, but i have the option of direct deviding in 12 steps using the lock pin with the rest disengaged. It is huge, way bigger then what i saw in the ebay pictures... i shall make do with it. My lathe tools are what people throw at me, mostly old bits of HSS  that needs grinding in shapes for me to use, i scrapped a set of insert holders from my wish list, hss and carbide work fine for my needs at the minute. Any forum members understand house / garage wiring rules? I got a new consumer unit for xmas.

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